NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

[Skigirl]

As to the DNA/swabs:

Remember what "S" said, that LE had gotten one from everyone they wanted one from. That number was reported as 750. It was even said that, given that number, many of them never even knew Faith, their lives just intersected hers in some way.

Knowing that, I have a hard time believing that someone as close to Faith as being in her call history or email history would have escaped being swabbed. If they're swabbing some guy who lives on the other side of the complex from her, surely they also got the guy who just sent her a text a few months earlier.

I usually agree with you about most things, but I disagree that everyone in her email and call history had to have been swabbed. LE could have very strong suspicions about someone in her periphery -- maybe someone she went on a single date with, or someone whom she emailed or called a couple times over the time when she was a UNC student -- and not have enough evidence because they can't get a warrant for a swab. Haven't they previously said they are very close to solving it? I used to take that to mean ETJ, but we have also been told it was someone outside of her immediate circle. Maybe they have someone specific in mind.

ETA: That 750 number baffles me. We've also heard numbers like, 100-200. DNA from 750 people is a lot for our state crime lab, especially since there are so many other crimes every single year in the state.

 

[CADwrest]

I usually agree with you about most things, but I disagree that everyone in her email and call history had to have been swabbed. LE could have very strong suspicions about someone in her periphery -- maybe someone she went on a single date with, or someone whom she emailed or called a couple times over the time when she was a UNC student -- and not have enough evidence because they can't get a warrant for a swab. Haven't they previously said they are very close to solving it? I used to take that to mean ETJ, but we have also been told it was someone outside of her immediate circle. Maybe they have someone specific in mind.

ETA: That 750 number baffles me. We've also heard numbers like, 100-200. DNA from 750 people is a lot for our state crime lab, especially since there are so many other crimes every single year in the state.

I think last year in the 20/20 special, it was said "hundreds" were swabbed. The 750 number was what Gasparoli said in his "5 year" post. I don't think they've gotten warrants for all or even a large percentage of those; like you said earlier, there'd never be sufficient probable cause. I think people have just said "yes" and given them. "S" flatly said "No" when asked if they'd wanted one from someone and not been able to get it; there are different ways to interpret that, but if they're swabbing random men at the complex, I can't see why they wouldn't "want" one from someone corresponding with her.

I don't remember LE saying they were "close" to solving it, just that they were 100% they would. I also don't think they've written off ETJ; what Lehew said to 20/20 was telling. "There's not enough evidence to arrest" ETJ. Not exactly clearing him...

 

[Skigirl]

I think last year in the 20/20 special, it was said "hundreds" were swabbed. The 750 number was what Gasparoli said in his "5 year" post. I don't think they've gotten warrants for all or even a large percentage of those; like you said earlier, there'd never be sufficient probable cause. I think people have just said "yes" and given them. "S" flatly said "No" when asked if they'd wanted one from someone and not been able to get it; there are different ways to interpret that, but if they're swabbing random men at the complex, I can't see why they wouldn't "want" one from someone corresponding with her.

I don't remember LE saying they were "close" to solving it, just that they were 100% they would. I also don't think they've written off ETJ; what Lehew said to 20/20 was telling. "There's not enough evidence to arrest" ETJ. Not exactly clearing him...

Oh, I agree that they probably didn't have to get warrants for the vast majority of people they've DNA-tested whether it's 100 or 750. In all of the materials that were released, just one person say "no" and even he relented before the warrant they obtained was executed. I would bet it was even easier to get residents of the complex who didn't even know who she was to agree to a swab.

 

[Simplestarz86]

Random thoughts here...sorry if I ramble (pregnancy brain)
1. Someone else,IIRC, stated something in regards to LE's statement of the perpetrator being from outside of Faith's social circle...are we to take that as she actually knew this person? Do they have someone in mind to actually know this for sure?
With DNA not matching any of the main "cast of characters" This leads me to my next random thought
2. After watching Dateline's, "Diabolical", I have wondered if perhaps someone in the girls life was just angry enough at one or both of them that they would put an ad on Craigslist for a-I hate to even type this-rape fantasy ad. Anyone can post an ad, give an address and a scenario. Could be why someone didn't show up till so early in the morning. Door will be unlocked. Will fight back but it's all apart of the fantasy. Icky-I hate typing this but it has been in the back of my mind for a long time. This person who could have placed the ad could have very easily deleted it after the crime occurred and wiped their computer of it-no evidence.

Does anyone think this could be plausible?

As always-JMO and just random thoughts. Sorry for any spelling/grammatical errors.


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[CADwrest]

Random thoughts here...sorry if I ramble (pregnancy brain)
1. Someone else,IIRC, stated something in regards to LE's statement of the perpetrator being from outside of Faith's social circle...are we to take that as she actually knew this person? Do they have someone in mind to actually know this for sure?
With DNA not matching any of the main "cast of characters" This leads me to my next random thought
2. After watching Dateline's, "Diabolical", I have wondered if perhaps someone in the girls life was just angry enough at one or both of them that they would put an ad on Craigslist for a-I hate to even type this-rape fantasy ad. Anyone can post an ad, give an address and a scenario. Could be why someone didn't show up till so early in the morning. Door will be unlocked. Will fight back but it's all apart of the fantasy. Icky-I hate typing this but it has been in the back of my mind for a long time. This person who could have placed the ad could have very easily deleted it after the crime occurred and wiped their computer of it-no evidence.

Does anyone think this could be plausible?

As always-JMO and just random thoughts. Sorry for any spelling/grammatical errors.


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That's definitely outside of the box, I'll give you that!
I can see a few problems: One, there would have to be some emails back and forth to set this up. The "rapist" wouldn't just grab the ad off Craigslist and go from there. That'd be just asking for something like this to happen, and he'd probably take some steps to confirm it was legit.
Second- how would this escalate to her getting killed? I can see if she keeps fighting and not using the safe word, he might finally "break character", but why would he actually try to kill her?

 

[Simplestarz86]

That's definitely outside of the box, I'll give you that!
I can see a few problems: One, there would have to be some emails back and forth to set this up. The "rapist" wouldn't just grab the ad off Craigslist and go from there. That'd be just asking for something like this to happen, and he'd probably take some steps to confirm it was legit.
Second- how would this escalate to her getting killed? I can see if she keeps fighting and not using the safe word, he might finally "break character", but why would he actually try to kill her?

IMO, possibly cause he realizes he was set up and gets angry and also doesn't want to be able to be identified. IMO, history on computers on both sides, person to write ad and person to respond, could delete history. With no one looking it wouldn't matter anyway. JMO on randomness.
Thank you for your reply!!!


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[Skigirl]

Random thoughts here...sorry if I ramble (pregnancy brain)
1. Someone else,IIRC, stated something in regards to LE's statement of the perpetrator being from outside of Faith's social circle...are we to take that as she actually knew this person? Do they have someone in mind to actually know this for sure?
With DNA not matching any of the main "cast of characters" This leads me to my next random thought
2. After watching Dateline's, "Diabolical", I have wondered if perhaps someone in the girls life was just angry enough at one or both of them that they would put an ad on Craigslist for a-I hate to even type this-rape fantasy ad. Anyone can post an ad, give an address and a scenario. Could be why someone didn't show up till so early in the morning. Door will be unlocked. Will fight back but it's all apart of the fantasy. Icky-I hate typing this but it has been in the back of my mind for a long time. This person who could have placed the ad could have very easily deleted it after the crime occurred and wiped their computer of it-no evidence.

Does anyone think this could be plausible?

As always-JMO and just random thoughts. Sorry for any spelling/grammatical errors.


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1) I don't think anyone can really know what exactly LE meant by the comment that it was probably someone outside of her social circle. My theories about that have ranged from
a. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because we've ruled out everyone we can think of who was in her social circle
b. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because the FBI profiler said so.
c. We think it's someone outside of her social circle and we have someone specific in mind who is outside of her circle but we do not have enough evidence to make an arrest or enough to get a warrant for his DNA.
d. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because of some communication or interaction she had with some person whose identity we do not know for sure and who we do not think is inside of her social circle and who we can't identify for whatever reason. Reasons for this could include things like anonymous dating interactions, witnesses who saw some regular at Red Robin who always paid cash and who always asked to sit in her section, someone who always said hi to her on campus and who seemed to have a crush on her but whose identity isn't known to her friends...etc. etc.

2) In answer to your question, stranger things have happened. I think with craigslist it could probably be traced back to a specific person eventually via IP addresses, unless the person always used a public computer that didn't require a login, or shared a computer with a bunch of roommates and none of them would own up to the ad, but maybe there was some other app or website...or maybe someone sophisticated enough to always use Tor. She wouldn't be the first person to be lured to her death by a craiglist ad. That said... her evening wasn't really that predictable, so it's a little bit of a stretch to think that she would have known that Karena was going out -- and she probably wouldn't have been texting for B to come over to show he cared about Karena if she was expecting a sexual encounter that she didn't want people to know about. When my mind goes toward a visitor, it tends to head toward an unexpected ring of the doorbell, someone she knew and liked OK but didn't know that well and didn't know was interested in her... a reluctant invitation to enter the apartment to avoid hurting his feelings...and things going terribly wrong from there.

ETA: I think maybe I misunderstood the scenario being proposed. Some third party set up the ad knowing the door to Faith's apartment would be unlocked and that ad was fake saying she was looking for that sort of encounter? Again... can't rule it out, except that it would have to be someone who was awfully careful and that LE would't suspect...and then it would be unlucky for all that he ended up killing her...The scenario I was responding to above is that Faith actually DID place an ad and they know it but can't trace the person who responded...which is less likely to be the case...

 

[Webthrush]

1) I don't think anyone can really know what exactly LE meant by the comment that it was probably someone outside of her social circle....<snip>

I&#8217;ve always believed they only concluded it was someone outside her social circle after they exhausted all those they believed to be in her circle (including friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends!) &#8212; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s more complicated than that, though I certainly may be wrong.
I do wonder if they are still convinced though whether this was a very &#8220;personal&#8221; crime, as they initially reported &#8212; so far as I can tell the ONLY reason for that conclusion was the bag note left behind (does anyone know of any other evidence for assuming this was a personal crime and Faith the intended target?). Other than the lack of a DNA match to semen, I think that note remains the biggest mystery of the case:
What did it mean? Was it written before or after the crime? Was it directed at Karena or Faith or neither? Was it written by a male or female, by one person or more than one? Was it a complete red herring to lead investigators astray? Or is it as simple as, 'I'm jealous so I killed you'?
Some time ago I tried to see if I could relate the wording &#8220;I&#8217;m not stupid ***** jealous&#8221; back to any lyrics in a rap song &#8212; I didn&#8217;t have any luck, but maybe someone else wants to try. Understanding the intention/meaning/purpose of that note might explain a lot of other things.

 

[CADwrest]

I&#8217;ve always believed they only concluded it was someone outside her social circle after they exhausted all those they believed to be in her circle (including friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends!) &#8212; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s more complicated than that, though I certainly may be wrong.
I do wonder if they are still convinced though whether this was a very &#8220;personal&#8221; crime, as they initially reported &#8212; so far as I can tell the ONLY reason for that conclusion was the bag note left behind (does anyone know of any other evidence for assuming this was a personal crime and Faith the intended target?). Other than the lack of a DNA match to semen, I think that note remains the biggest mystery of the case:
What did it mean? Was it written before or after the crime? Was it directed at Karena or Faith or neither? Was it written by a male or female, by one person or more than one? Was it a complete red herring to lead investigators astray? Or is it as simple as, 'I'm jealous so I killed you'?
Some time ago I tried to see if I could relate the wording &#8220;I&#8217;m not stupid ***** jealous&#8221; back to any lyrics in a rap song &#8212; I didn&#8217;t have any luck, but maybe someone else wants to try. Understanding the intention/meaning/purpose of that note might explain a lot of other things.

As to why it was a personal crime, in addition to the note, I think the emotion/energy evident in the killing points to that.

 

[Skigirl]

I&#8217;ve always believed they only concluded it was someone outside her social circle after they exhausted all those they believed to be in her circle (including friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends!) &#8212; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s more complicated than that, though I certainly may be wrong.
I do wonder if they are still convinced though whether this was a very &#8220;personal&#8221; crime, as they initially reported &#8212; so far as I can tell the ONLY reason for that conclusion was the bag note left behind (does anyone know of any other evidence for assuming this was a personal crime and Faith the intended target?). Other than the lack of a DNA match to semen, I think that note remains the biggest mystery of the case:
What did it mean? Was it written before or after the crime? Was it directed at Karena or Faith or neither? Was it written by a male or female, by one person or more than one? Was it a complete red herring to lead investigators astray? Or is it as simple as, 'I'm jealous so I killed you'?
Some time ago I tried to see if I could relate the wording &#8220;I&#8217;m not stupid ***** jealous&#8221; back to any lyrics in a rap song &#8212; I didn&#8217;t have any luck, but maybe someone else wants to try. Understanding the intention/meaning/purpose of that note might explain a lot of other things.

I've been trying to match lyrics/memes/sayings online forever. I just did another search and found that there's now a cottage industry of quotes about jealousy, not being jealous, b*tches who are supposedly someone to be jealous of but who are inferior, etc. on Pinterest, of all places. There are times when I miss my 20s, but then I remember how crazy emotional and chaotic they can be and I'm just glad to finally be a "real adult."

 

[Webthrush]

As to why it was a personal crime, in addition to the note, I think the emotion/energy evident in the killing points to that.

I think that only shows rage... if Faith was biting her attacker, kicking them in the groin, gouging their eyes out, stabbing them with a pen, whatever, I imagine them flying into a rage, leading to the beating (again, I don't think this was a planned murder, but something else gone awry and leading to brutality).

 

[Simplestarz86]

I’ve always believed they only concluded it was someone outside her social circle after they exhausted all those they believed to be in her circle (including friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends!) — I don’t think it’s more complicated than that, though I certainly may be wrong.
I do wonder if they are still convinced though whether this was a very “personal” crime, as they initially reported — so far as I can tell the ONLY reason for that conclusion was the bag note left behind (does anyone know of any other evidence for assuming this was a personal crime and Faith the intended target?). Other than the lack of a DNA match to semen, I think that note remains the biggest mystery of the case:
What did it mean? Was it written before or after the crime? Was it directed at Karena or Faith or neither? Was it written by a male or female, by one person or more than one? Was it a complete red herring to lead investigators astray? Or is it as simple as, 'I'm jealous so I killed you'?
Some time ago I tried to see if I could relate the wording “I’m not stupid ***** jealous” back to any lyrics in a rap song — I didn’t have any luck, but maybe someone else wants to try. Understanding the intention/meaning/purpose of that note might explain a lot of other things.

IMO, I've wondered if the note was written before hand perhaps with no intention of leading or having to do with murder and then used as a red herring. JMO. IMO the shirt pulled over her face conveyed personal.


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[Simplestarz86]

1) I don't think anyone can really know what exactly LE meant by the comment that it was probably someone outside of her social circle. My theories about that have ranged from
a. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because we've ruled out everyone we can think of who was in her social circle
b. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because the FBI profiler said so.
c. We think it's someone outside of her social circle and we have someone specific in mind who is outside of her circle but we do not have enough evidence to make an arrest or enough to get a warrant for his DNA.
d. We think it's someone outside of her social circle because of some communication or interaction she had with some person whose identity we do not know for sure and who we do not think is inside of her social circle and who we can't identify for whatever reason. Reasons for this could include things like anonymous dating interactions, witnesses who saw some regular at Red Robin who always paid cash and who always asked to sit in her section, someone who always said hi to her on campus and who seemed to have a crush on her but whose identity isn't known to her friends...etc. etc.

2) In answer to your question, stranger things have happened. I think with craigslist it could probably be traced back to a specific person eventually via IP addresses, unless the person always used a public computer that didn't require a login, or shared a computer with a bunch of roommates and none of them would own up to the ad, but maybe there was some other app or website...or maybe someone sophisticated enough to always use Tor. She wouldn't be the first person to be lured to her death by a craiglist ad. That said... her evening wasn't really that predictable, so it's a little bit of a stretch to think that she would have known that Karena was going out -- and she probably wouldn't have been texting for B to come over to show he cared about Karena if she was expecting a sexual encounter that she didn't want people to know about. When my mind goes toward a visitor, it tends to head toward an unexpected ring of the doorbell, someone she knew and liked OK but didn't know that well and didn't know was interested in her... a reluctant invitation to enter the apartment to avoid hurting his feelings...and things going terribly wrong from there.

ETA: I think maybe I misunderstood the scenario being proposed. Some third party set up the ad knowing the door to Faith's apartment would be unlocked and that ad was fake saying she was looking for that sort of encounter? Again... can't rule it out, except that it would have to be someone who was awfully careful and that LE would't suspect...and then it would be unlucky for all that he ended up killing her...The scenario I was responding to above is that Faith actually DID place an ad and they know it but can't trace the person who responded...which is less likely to be the case...

Correct: a third party not Faith herself.


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[Simplestarz86]

I've been trying to match lyrics/memes/sayings online forever. I just did another search and found that there's now a cottage industry of quotes about jealousy, not being jealous, b*tches who are supposedly someone to be jealous of but who are inferior, etc. on Pinterest, of all places. There are times when I miss my 20s, but then I remember how crazy emotional and chaotic they can be and I'm just glad to finally be a "real adult."

Perhaps someone was writing their own rap. Many amateur rappers around. Not just talking about ETJ.


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[CADwrest]

IMO, I've wondered if the note was written before hand perhaps with no intention of leading or having to do with murder and then used as a red herring. JMO. IMO the shirt pulled over her face conveyed personal.


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But the DNA on the pen used to write it matched the semen. I think you'd be onto something if it was just on the bag, but it was on the pen, too (I assume, perhaps wrongly, that the pen was forensically matched with the writing).
The other thing there: Even if the killer just handled those items to make like he wrote the message, if Faith and one of her friends had actually written it playfully, I don't see why the friend wouldn't admit it. Even if they feared LE not believing their story about it at first, it seems eventually they'd come out and say as much, once it was clear the investigation was going in other directions. Then LE could just say "the DNA was found on other items" without making the note out to be something it wasn't.

 

[youlostone]

That's definitely outside of the box, I'll give you that!
I can see a few problems: One, there would have to be some emails back and forth to set this up. The "rapist" wouldn't just grab the ad off Craigslist and go from there. That'd be just asking for something like this to happen, and he'd probably take some steps to confirm it was legit.
Second- how would this escalate to her getting killed? I can see if she keeps fighting and not using the safe word, he might finally "break character", but why would he actually try to kill her?

In the episode she's talking about that's exactly what happened as far as I remember. Creepy guys kept showing up to this lady's house randomly out the blue cause of the Craigslist ad her ex's girlfriend kept putting up. (Totally unrelated but I think in the end they were actually framing the ex-girlfriend).

I don't think the Craigslist scenario is likely, but anything is possible at this point. You would really have to piss somebody off for them to even consider trying to pull off something like this. Maybe the LE knows of some other people who might have been mad with Faith, but I guess that's just another detail we can only speculate about.

Despite the note on the TimeOut bag, I think I'm in the group that believes this was a random person (mostly) unknown to her. Like someone else said - a robber just trying doors.

 

[youlostone]

I&#8217;ve always believed they only concluded it was someone outside her social circle after they exhausted all those they believed to be in her circle (including friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends!) &#8212; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s more complicated than that, though I certainly may be wrong.

This is my interpretation as well. Seems like forever they did think it was a personal crime done by someone in her social circle. At the very least the FBI profile said it was someone within close quarters of her/known to her (paraphrasing). I still never know what to make of the note because everything about the brutality of this crime seems personal/crime of passion... but then why can't they find a DNA match??? After 750 samples I think that's what really makes me believe it has to be someone outside of the social circle and in the periphery.

 

[youlostone]

IMO, I've wondered if the note was written before hand perhaps with no intention of leading or having to do with murder and then used as a red herring. JMO. IMO the shirt pulled over her face conveyed personal.


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Yeah, they always say the note was probably written after, but I've always thought that for it to have absolutely no blood on it whatsoever doesn't that mean it was probably written before?? Blood is impossible to clean and get off of everything. I mean maybe the pen was stained with blood or something like that, but that's the only way I could see how you would know when exactly it was written.

Also agree with the thought about rage. This crime is so messy. No way it was planned out that much. Who commits a crime with the intention of leaving so much evidence and DNA??

 

[raiders444]

Apologies if this was discussed here earlier- but regarding ETJ....does anyone know if his apartment had a vantage point of Karena's, so he would be able to see her comings and goings? Also, was the restraining order still active when Faith's murder occurred? There's something about his mannerisms when he was interviewed - he kept touching his chin...maybe it was nervousness. Maybe he decided that morning he would attack this head on to lead LE to believe he wasn't involved- make some sympathetic statements, hang around the crime scene, etc.

I know he has been cleared as far as DNA, but maybe a friend was over visiting that night, they are drinking, they see Karena leave and know about the one key for the apartment thing. ETJ's DNA is already probably all over that apartment so it might be hard to tie HIM to the crime scene but he could have been an accomplice...

 

[SteveP]

A bit off topic, but if you happened to catch the premiere of The Voice tonight on NBC, there was a young Native American woman from Hollister, NC, who auditioned, and did very well...she happens to be Faith's cousin, and actually favors her a bit. I can't post the link, but if you check Faith's sister, Rolanda's Facebook page, you will see her. Her name is Brooke Simpson.