ND - Several bodies found at Mandan business, 1 April 2019 *Arrest* #2

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Seattle1 said:
If you're reading that from the defense closing argument, there's a good reason why the Judge reminded the jurors that the closing SHOULD NOT be viewed as evidence in their deliberations and he'll explain this further during the jury instructions.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've been following off and on all along, just haven't commented. He mentioned a bunch of things that I had kind of noticed at the time as, "Gee they should have looked at that, just in case." Seeing it all in one spot like that was...impressive.

I should add I don't think sloppy police work means he's not guilty. I don't see how he could not be.
 
Thursday, August 19

1:58 p.m.: The jury has been taken to the jury room to begin deliberations.

1:55 p.m.: The judge says the two alternate jurors will not deliberate with the 12 jurors selected. The alternates are retained in case a juror is not able to complete deliberation. The two will be kept in a separate jury room while the six-man, six-woman jury deliberates in another room. Sometime after 4:30 p.m., the bailiff will check to see if the jurors are close to a verdict. If they are, they can stay longer. If not, they will be dismissed for the day around 5:00 p.m., and resume deliberations on Friday.

1:43 p.m.: Judge David Reich reads the final jury instructions. The additional instructions include things such as definitions of murder, burglary, unauthorized entry of a vehicle, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury is the ultimate arbitrate of the evidence. The jury cannot ignore the law in judging the case. The defendant has a constitutional right not to testify. The jury cannot infer innocence or guilt based on his or her decision not to testify. The law makes no distinction between circumstantial and direct evidence. Proof of a motive is not essential. The jury must be fair and impartial. Everyone is equal under the law. You cannot be biased toward the defendant. When the jury goes to the jury room, select a jury leader who will lead the discussions and speak for the jury in court. The verdict on each count must be unanimous. The subject of punishment must not in any way affect the jury’s decision — that is a separate matter for the court.
Chad Isaak trial: The latest | KX NEWS
 
Some random comments.

Bruce Quick completely ignores the revolver frame found in the freezer during his Jury address . I don't think the jurors will ignore that. But in the context of ammo in the microwave at work , the weed wacker in the house and other matters... not so strange.

2. But here's the thing - during the search of the house the detectives say that they found a sales box for a Ruger 357 . But there is no photo for it. The supposedly reasonably recent purchase of a revolver of the same type / mafr as the alleged murder weapon. That's big, and I can't fathom why that was not investigated further. I was allegedly found in a night table drawer.

3. Photos of the fired ammo were shown in a plastic bag. We Sleuths were never shown the Headstamps on the back of the cases. My guess is they will show Hornady but what they show Winchester made those 9 fired cases. Then the almost match between the fired cases and the 11 holes in the ammo pack becomes just almost a random event. Perhaps other photos were shown but I just saw the one.

4. I'll add a graphic which shows why the investigators are so vague about whether a 9mm or a 38 SPL or a 357 was used to fire the fatal shots. 9mm bullet dimensions (diameter ) are basically identical to .38 cal dimensions (the latter being 9.1mm) . After a bullet has been recovered from a body or a bit of Gib board you can't start quibbling about 0.1mm here or there - there is material loss. This 9mm versus 38 SPL is important if you are trying to find out the truth of what happened.
Note too that there are some revolvers that fire 9mm ammunition (they are specialised revolvers since a 9mm case does not have a projecting rim to stop it dropping forward when fired). So you could a have a murder done with a non auto loader 9mm gun and therefore no empty cases found at the scene.

Notice top right of the SAAMI dimensions sheet - this type of ammunition is called 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum - this latter term not used on this SAAMI diagram.
 

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KidonGadol said:
Some random comments.

Bruce Quick completely ignores the revolver frame found in the freezer during his Jury address . I don't think the jurors will ignore that. But in the context of ammo in the microwave at work , the weed wacker in the house and other matters... not so strange.

2. But here's the thing - during the search of the house the detectives say that they found a sales box for a Ruger 357 . But there is no photo for it. The supposedly reasonably recent purchase of a revolver of the same type / mafr as the alleged murder weapon. That's big, and I can't fathom why that was not investigated further. I was allegedly found in a night table drawer.

3. Photos of the fired ammo were shown in a plastic bag. We Sleuths were never shown the Headstamps on the back of the cases. My guess is they will show Hornady but what they show Winchester made those 9 fired cases. Then the almost match between the fired cases and the 11 holes in the ammo pack becomes just almost a random event. Perhaps other photos were shown but I just saw the one.

4. I'll add a graphic which shows why the investigators are so vague about whether a 9mm or a 38 SPL or a 357 was used to fire the fatal shots. 9mm bullet dimensions (diameter ) are basically identical to .38 cal dimensions (the latter being 9.1mm) . After a bullet has been recovered from a body or a bit of Gib board you can't start quibbling about 0.1mm here or there - there is material loss. This 9mm versus 38 SPL is important if you are trying to find out the truth of what happened.
Note too that there are some revolvers that fire 9mm ammunition (they are specialised revolvers since a 9mm case does not have a projecting rim to stop it dropping forward when fired). So you could a have a murder done with a non auto loader 9mm gun and therefore no empty cases found at the scene.

Notice top right of the SAAMI dimensions sheet - this type of ammunition is called 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum - this latter term not used on this SAAMI diagram.
Click to expand...

OK, just to be clear: you do know that the viewing public is not seeing 100% of the evidence presented to the jurors, correct?
 
Seattle1 said:
OK, just to be clear: you do know that the viewing public is not seeing 100% of the evidence presented to the jurors, correct?
Click to expand...
The photos I am talking about are stills taken at the crime scene - they are integrated into the various news reports which are edited versions of what is happening on the day in general .

There was other sloppy photography on this job, so it is entirely possible there are no photos showing the headstamps on the used brass shell cases. ..... ??
One can see that if they say Hornady 38 SPL , (as per the ones in the ammo b ox ) old Bruce Quick would rather not know.

If they show something else a different manufacturer , it is interesting but not exculpatory.
As you can see from the microwave shot of a whole bunch off ammo boxes in the microwave , old Chaddy had various brands of ammunition in any case.

Imagine - Chad with an early client at the office

-" sorry I can't see you yet, you are early".

"never mind .. .I'll brew you up a cup of coffee in the microwave.. don't mind the mess.."

60 seconds later: " K ABB BOOM. !!!! crash - bang "

. and half the side of the Chiropractor's office is blow up from 38 SPL ammo being brewed up with the coffee mug in that microwave.

:))
 
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KidonGadol said:
As you can see from the microwave shot of a whole bunch off ammo boxes in the microwave , old Chaddy had various brands of ammunition in any case.
Imagine - Chad with an early client at the office
-" sorry I can't see you yet, you are early".
"never mind .. .I'll brew you up a cup of coffee in the microwave.. don't mind the mess.."
60 seconds later: " K ABB BOOM. !!!! crash - bang "
. and half the side of the Chiropractor's office is blow up from 38 SPL ammo being brewed up with the coffee mug in that microwave.
Click to expand...
Evidence, graphic images, lack of motive highlight 2nd week of RJR trial
Defense attorney Bruce Quick said that the microwave did not have an operable cord.
 
FriendlyFella1976 said:
I think there's clearly reasonable doubt and wouldn't be surprised if at least one juror is reluctant to convict.
Click to expand...
You can't base that on how long it takes them to come to a verdict. Sometimes other factors are at work.

I served on a jury once that was a simple case...a daughter stole a check out of her father's checkbook and wrote it to herself for cash. It was for a very large amount and he decided enough was enough of her foolish behavior and had her prosecuted for check fraud/theft. We got the case after lunch and first elected a jury foreman who did a quick vote. Guilty all around.

But Foreman decided we couldn't just go back out within the hour with a guilty verdict so he decided we had to discuss the opposite side first and who else could have done it per the defense argument. I've watched a lot of trials in my life and was gritting my teeth with frustration when at 5 that afternoon he decided he liked the lunch they fed us and wanted to have it again the next day. 24 hours later...after lunch...he finally filled out the verdict form.

So I learned that day that human behavior is not predictable while being held hostage with 10 other reasonable people by a really obstinate man who is too cheap to buy his own lunch.
 
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FriendlyFella1976 said:
I think there's clearly reasonable doubt and wouldn't be surprised if at least one juror is reluctant to convict.
Click to expand...

Exactly so and they need the full bottle of twelve.

The thing that should worry Bruce Quick is they put people from the Dental surgery on the stand and testimony was that CTI had not been there for a long long time and certainly not on April 1st 2019. I'm wondering if CTI lied to counsel on that area.

I have suggested to BCI via email that they tear the spring steel buffer strap off the revolver frame and see what they find underneath as there is nice cavity there held in by s single rivet . You should find bleach decomposition products in there if not even something else.
Definitively finding bleach break down products in there would be a bid move forward

They would not be able to admit that in this trial in any case but I'd suspect if he's not found not guilty then it will turn into a mistrial (far more likely than a not guilty verdict) and they'll have to re -run the trial in 9mo. time.

KG
sassyblue said:
You can't base that on how long it takes them to come to a verdict. Sometimes other factors are at work.

I served on a jury once that was a simple case...a daughter stole a check out of her father's checkbook and wrote it to herself for cash. It was for a very large amount and he decided enough was enough of her foolish behavior and had her prosecuted for check fraud/theft. We got the case after lunch and first elected a jury foreman who did a quick vote. Guilty all around.

But Foreman decided we couldn't just go back out within the hour with a guilty verdict so he decided we had to discuss the opposite side first and who else could have done it per the defense argument. I've watched a lot of trials in my life and was gritting my teeth with frustration when at 5 that afternoon he decided he liked the lunch they fed us and wanted to have it again the next day. 24 hours later...after lunch...he finally filled out the verdict form.

So I learned that day that human behavior is not predictable while being held hostage with 10 other reasonable people by a really obstinate man who is too cheap to buy his own lunch.
Click to expand...

This an absolute classic... The jury foreman liked the sandwiches so he thought he'd spin it out for another day... where did they get him - homeless type living under a bridge - So he needed a good feed up before they turned him loose ? This is the sort of story you'd normally get out of Tasmania in an Ozzie context.

Perhaps the instructions to jury should as standard include the warning that the state taxpayers are footing the bill for lunch so be reasonable and don't spin it out on account of the sandwich platter !! LMAO :)) :)) Tim Fider in NzL
 
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