Ned's Final Theory-Lou Smit are you still reading here?

Here is Jameson's response to you regarding the exhumation of JonBenet's body-

I believe the stun gun theory is a long shot, considering the manufacturer didn’t think they were produced by them and the Ramsey’s refusal to exhume the body to prove otherwise. I dismiss it as a non issue. It’s like taking any of the marks on JB’s body and coming up with other options as to how they got there. Fact is fact, the Ramsey’s REFUSED to exhume, and without the skin tissue samples, we will never know for sure.

Fact is, the manufacturer said the marks couldn't have been theirs - then they watched the documentary and - - - weren't so sure. The interview transcript was available for years - we have it.



And the Ramseys NEVER refused to exhume her body - - the authorities NEVER ASKED - - and if they had wanted to exhume her body, they wouldn't NEED permission.




http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID61/2451.html



In the Nov 4, 2000 48 Hours interview when the idea of exhuming JonBenet's body to examine the wounds was brought up, John called it "a horrid thought". Sounds like he wasn't exactly gung-ho on this possible undertaking either.





-Tea
 
Maybe JonBenet did go to bed and at some point before Patsy goes to bed herself she realizes JonBenet hadn't been told to go potty and goes to get her to the bathroom before she wets the bed but it's too late. Patsy has to deal with it and JonBenet isn't exactly cooperative because she's having a hard time waking up so soon after falling asleep....




My daughter wakes up with a smile on her face but my son is a bear if he has to be woken up.




Jubie
 
Rash: My guess is that there was indeed a chair blocking the room to the train room basement door at the time John carried down JB's body down and wanted to enter the room in the very early morning hours, way before the Ramseys called the police.
For it is typical for liars to weave some elements of truth into their story, and imo this is such an element.

Ned: I agree, I think he mixed up his story. But just not sure if JB carried JB down anywhere. I believe she was murdered in the basement.

Rash: What John Ramseys said about the chair and also what he said about the basement window (that he found it open and closed it) implicates him in the crime.
For which father whose child had just been abducted would merely close a possible entry window and not even mention the open window to the police at once??

Ned: Completely agree!

Rash: NJ, you asked why (the alleged super-detective) Lou Smit didn't catch John on this. Good question with only two possible answers imo:

a) - the retired detective Lou Smit was already suffering from some kind of mental sclerosis which prevented his brain from drawing basic conclusions,

or

b) - Smit's agenda was to give both Ramseys a pass, and he acted accordingly, by e. g. deliberately turning a blind eye to incriminating circumstantial evidence involving them.

Ned: I will have to defend Lou here, as I have always held a tremendous amount of respect for him. He actually did question JR regarding the chair. I wonder however after given the response that John did, how was Lou still convinced an intruder left that home through the window in the train room?
 

Ned: I will have to defend Lou here, as I have always held a tremendous amount of respect for him. He actually did question JR regarding the chair. I wonder however after given the response that John did, how was Lou still convinced an intruder left that home through the window in the train room?[/QUOTE]
I have to kick in here about Lou Smit. You are right he did question John about it, but he in no way presses him on it. Also, if you have seen the beginning of this interview process, it is really a travesty. It happened to come on and my son was there and he is just not into this case, certainly not the way you or I are, and he said - "look at how he is questioning him, why bother".

He may as well have said John, this is just a formality, we'll have this done in no time. I believe you are innocent and I am running this interview.

Lou Smit just does not believe they had anything to do with it and as S. Thomas said, LS had formed a close relationship with them when he should not have. His wife was going through cancer treatments at the same time as Patsy and he could relate to that. He probably is a very good detective. Just not in this case. IMO I mean I have never heard him address the inconsistencies in this case at all.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE.
 
Ned, what do you think happened that night. Do you think it was Patsy or John or both?
 
Solace: thanks so much for mentioning this!
Wow!
- So John Ramsey said he found a chair blocking the door to the train room when he went down to look for JB?
- So per John, the intruder had already disappeared by the time he went down there, right?
- But John Ramsey never said he himself put that chair back in front of the door.
- Now how on earth did that chair end up blocking the train room door again unless John himself put it there?

BULLSEYE, EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO POINT OUT. THIS PROVES THAT JOHN RAMSEY LIED AND WAS INVOLVED IN THIS CRIME IMO
 
Solace said:
But there is no reason for him to lie about that. In fact, if he is the one who placed Jon Benet in the wine cellar, it is more to his benefit to say he was down there in case he left "anything" that would tie him to being there that morning.

I agree, I'm just saying we don't really know these things as facts.
 
Ned: Ahhh you are on to something Sherlock….

Charlie: If there are CS photos, it only proves the chair was there when the photo was taken. It didn't become a murder case until 1:05pm, and who knows when the photos were actually taken? If the photo was taken at 6 or 7 am then I'd say we have to wonder why FW and French didn't mention it. But since they didn't, and the photo was probably taken after 1pm, I think we have to wonder why the chair was there later, but not earlier.

Ned: If there chair was there when the crime scene photos were taken, and NOT there when White and French entered that basement, then it could implicate JR into this crime when he disappeared around 10am. This is when more staging “could have” occurred. The chair wasn’t there, then it was.
 
I can only thing the loops might have been used to hold her arms up onto something,esp with the way JB's arms were found above her head.Any thoughts anyone?


Ned: Nothing to suggest this because there would have been livitiy in her arms and there was not. the livity was consistant with her coming to rest flat on her back, arms above her head
 
But how do you hit someone this hard and it is still an accident.

Nusiance and Rash, do you think it was an accident?

Ned: An angry woman loses control, could have very easily cracked her skull with one good forceful whack against something hard like the tile bathroom or sink. I know Lou is convinced it was from the flashlight. Which conveniently was left out on the kitchen counter, wiped clean of prints. The Ramsey’s owned one just like it, but couldn’t seem to find it that morning
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I've questioned whether that was an accident or not many times. How is hitting a child with that amount of force an accident? Whoever hit her had to have been aiming at her and intended to hit her good and hard.

I think the flashlight was the most likely object, because it fits the wound and it was wiped clean down to the batteries. I think that indicates it was directly involved in the crime and evidence removed.

But if that was the object, the head end of the flashlight hit the back of her head. That's where the big hole in the skull is. I imagine the person who hit her (imo, Patsy) was standing behind JonBenet, facing her back.

I suspect the head wound was unintentional more than an accident. I figure maybe Patsy was angry, and went to swing, and ended up hitting her much harder than she intended to. I don't know, though. Maybe it was John. Maybe he really was a molester, and she said she was going to tell and turned around to run to Mommy, with JR trying to stop her by smacking her on the head. All I can do is wonder.

I don't think the person who hit her intended to kill her in a pre-meditated manner. I think the person who hit her was either angry and lost control or was upset and needed to silence JonBenet. In that aspect I think it was an accident...but whoever hit her had to know hitting her on the head was going to hurt her, and meant to hurt her. I sincerely hope JonBenet never saw it coming and did not realize whoever hit her was aiming at her head and swinging.


Nuiance, I completly agree
 
Nedthan Johns said:
Ned: I will have to defend Lou here, as I have always held a tremendous amount of respect for him. He actually did question JR regarding the chair. I wonder however after given the response that John did, how was Lou still convinced an intruder left that home through the window in the train room?

$$$$$$$ ?
 
Nedthan Johns said:
Solace: thanks so much for mentioning this!
Wow!
- So John Ramsey said he found a chair blocking the door to the train room when he went down to look for JB?
- So per John, the intruder had already disappeared by the time he went down there, right?
- But John Ramsey never said he himself put that chair back in front of the door.
- Now how on earth did that chair end up blocking the train room door again unless John himself put it there?

BULLSEYE, EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO POINT OUT. THIS PROVES THAT JOHN RAMSEY LIED AND WAS INVOLVED IN THIS CRIME IMO
John says he REPLACED the chair when he left the room.

 
Great points

Charlie: Now a crime scene photograph shows the blocked chair, but we dont know when this photograph was taken. What we really need to urgently know is when this crime scene photpraph was taken. Lets assume all the crime scene photographs are taken during the same period has anyone found a crime scene photogrpah that has been released that has got a time stamp on it?

Ned: The basement and train room were not considered a crime scene until after the body was found, therefore the Photos were taken after 1-pm
 
rashomon said:
When Dr. Henry Lee stated that at the origin of this tragic case there was an "accident", he brought a lot of confusion into the discussion of JBR case imo.
Lee's point was that this was no premeditated crime, and that the attacker did not mean to kill JB.
Still I would not call it an accident, but a 'rage attack' instead.

Someone (I believe it was Patsy) struck out at JB in a blind rage and then realized to her shock that irreparable damage had been done. Not that different from what Jeffrey MacDonald did to his wife and older child when he was in a blind fury.

Now it has been argued that surely Patsy, when striking at JB with the heavy flashlight (or yanking her violently against the bathtub) must have known that she might hurt her child terribly.
But what is typical for rage is that it prevents people from thinking clearly about the possible results of their actions.
There are probably quite a few people in prison for crimes which they would never have committed if they hadn't been in a rage. Many manslaughters and second-degree murders fall into that category.
After the person in a rage sees what he/she has done, it is like cold water ("Oh my God what have I done!").

And I think everything which followed from there was done for staging purposes to cover up the original attack on JB.
And since the child obviously had also been the victim of chronic sexual abuse, the Ramseys probably tried to cover this up too by inflicting the vaginal injury on JB.

Well spoken! Bravo! Bravo!
 
Solace said:
I have to kick in here about Lou Smit. You are right he did question John about it, but he in no way presses him on it. Also, if you have seen the beginning of this interview process, it is really a travesty. It happened to come on and my son was there and he is just not into this case, certainly not the way you or I are, and he said - "look at how he is questioning him, why bother".

He may as well have said John, this is just a formality, we'll have this done in no time. I believe you are innocent and I am running this interview.

Lou Smit just does not believe they had anything to do with it and as S. Thomas said, LS had formed a close relationship with them when he should not have. His wife was going through cancer treatments at the same time as Patsy and he could relate to that. He probably is a very good detective. Just not in this case. IMO I mean I have never heard him address the inconsistencies in this case at all.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE.
I think it was unprofessional of Smit not to be objective in this case.ST was open to anyone being guilty,but Smit allowed the R's to charm him over and decided they couldn't possibly be guilty(yea,and all little old ladies are nice, too @@)..but this is nothing more than the manipulativeness that mentally ill ppl tend to possess..the power and wit to charm the heck off of anyone they chose,when it's imperative they do so to save themselves.It's like this...from their point of view,they have no choice but to appear kind and normal and to use undue influence over ppl to get to the end result of what they want.(ST recognized it when he interveiwed PR).
I think Dr Goof ..opps,i mean Dr Beuf...was unprofessional as well.He should have been encouraging and empowering PR to go to the LE HQ that night and be questioned, and do what she could to help...instead,he did nothing but encourage her whining and encourage her to do nothing at all..which accomplished nothing but making her feel more like a victim(that is...if she were innocent).Dr Beuf apparently knew she wasn't or was unduly influenced by JR(the latter I believe).If he truly wanted to help PR,he shouldn't have encouraged her victim stance,he should have empowered her to do all that she could.
 
Nedthan Johns said:
Great points

Ned: The basement and train room were not considered a crime scene until after the body was found, therefore the Photos were taken after 1-pm

Right. So what we need now, is a statement from both FW and Officer French as to whether or not they saw the chair when they searched that morning. Neither has ever mentioned it to my knowledge, but maybe that's just because no one's ever asked (though I tend to think they'd have mentioned it).

If it wasn't there earlier, then JR must have put it there. He's the only one we know of claiming to have seen it or moved it.

I know he wasn't aware of FW being down there in the morning, but did he know the cop was down there ? Why lie about a chair when an officer could easily state that it wasn't there when he searched?
 
Sol: I know you don't think she made it to bed that night, but then what about the pineapple being mostly digested, takes about 2-4 hours. They get home at 9:30, she eats it. She was probably killed about 1:00. I think she went to bed and something happened that enraged Patsy and then hell was in session.

Ned: Burke's room was 2 floors up from the basement. It's a big home. Kids sleep sound, he proabably didn't hear a thing. They arrive home at 9:30 or there abouts, JB was changed into her long johns, which were found on her soaked with urine, therefore she was wearing them at the time of death. Her bed doesn't appear to me to have been slept in. It also doesn't appear that the sheets were wet and changed, as there are too many articles of clothes on the bed, pillow misplaced, etc. I just dont' see it as a staged scene. It looks like a very messy bed, missing a child and a pillow in the appropriate place. I believe that JB was fed the pineapple Soon after they arrived home 1opm or so along with Burke, and then either helped Patsy wrap last minute gifts in the basement or was told to go to bed and perhaps played in her room instead. I believe she was murdered before 12 midnight. I believe this is WHY the Ramsey’s chose the 25th date for her tombstone. I don’t know the sequence of events, but had she wet her bed, her bladder would not have been full enough to empty a second time at the time of strangulation, which is what I believe ultimately killed her, not the head blow. The direction of the urine indicates to me death ensued AFTER the head blow and was done to put JB out of her misery. The blow to her head was unintentional in the fact that the person who did it, did not realize the rage and force she used to implement the blow.
 
I believe that all Burke knows is that JB was awake and carried in gifts and that they both had pineapple that night. He also was AWAKE when the Ramsey's called 911.
 
Chrishope said:
Right. So what we need now, is a statement from both FW and Officer French as to whether or not they saw the chair when they searched that morning. Neither has ever mentioned it to my knowledge, but maybe that's just because no one's ever asked (though I tend to think they'd have mentioned it).

If it wasn't there earlier, then JR must have put it there. He's the only one we know of claiming to have seen it or moved it.

I know he wasn't aware of FW being down there in the morning, but did he know the cop was down there ? Why lie about a chair when an officer could easily state that it wasn't there when he searched?
There is no reason. Besides he said he went down between 7 and 9, probably after the officer was there and after Fleet White. There are pictures of the chair and probably taken after 1:00 when she was found. Why he returns the chair I do not know, maybe it is a small space and that is the only place he had for the chair. BUT, I agree with Ned and Rash that when he brought her down to the basement originally, the chair was there and he kept that going. This is all supposition, but I really think they were involved. I just wish one of us could come up with an irrefutable fact that places him in the basement, something that he does not offer (John).
 

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