Netflix - Elisa Lam

Discussion in 'Elisa Lam' started by leaves, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. glamourkitty1922

    glamourkitty1922 Well-Known Member

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    What the police gave the media is exactly what they took from the Cecil video files. Also, the police say they didn't speed up the film, the Cecil didn't even examine the video before the police, so the "slowing" was the editing of the video. You find that in the lawsuit, pages 16 thru 18. It was originally the video shown by the media. That is the unedited video.

    Here is an answer to why video goes pixilated. Pixelation usually happens when you compress the data in video files to make the video files smaller and reduce memory usage. This excessive compression, however, could negatively affect video quality. Some of the data encoded in the video are permanently erased, thereby creating the "pixelation" effect on the video.
     
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  2. fairysenses

    fairysenses No rest for the wicked

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  3. fairysenses

    fairysenses No rest for the wicked

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    I agree with you.
    Thank you for writing this, I agree with so many of the points you made here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  4. fairysenses

    fairysenses No rest for the wicked

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    Thank you for pointing out the mixed up claims about whether or not the door open or closed, I took note of that while watching the series.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  5. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there was any mention in the autopsy report of the lid being open. The full report is still available online. We don't know what the maintenance worker said to police, but normally investigators don't release many details during an ongoing investigation, which may be why the public didn't know about it until the hearing.

    I've wondered if after he discovered the body he closed the lid himself. It must have been a shock. In his surprise he might have automatically closed the lid without thinking. That would explain why LE reported it being closed. They may not have noticed it from the helicopter during the search.

    I'm not sure about police not sharing specific details about the video. Usually when they release surveillance footage to the media they just release it without explanation. I think the goal is to get help from the public in identifying her to see if anybody remembered seeing her.

    I think they left the closing and opening of the doors because those are the times when Elisa appears. It probably wouldn't make sense to edit it out if she just appears again moments later.

    I think the pixilation is just because the video is poor quality. They probably hadn't upgraded in years. Maybe the image gets worse when she moves quickly. There is a zigzag pattern all around the elevator doors and all around the borders of the floor, but I'm sure that's not what it really looks like.

    Imo
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  6. Qrious

    Qrious Active Member

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    I'm never a conspiracy theorist but I do have much to say about the danger of concluding that because there were no evidences of foul play, therefore it must have been accidental death likely because of the subject's mental state at that time given her history of bipolar disorder and her going off her medication. Firstly our assumption of her mental state at that time is only circumstantial evidence. It might or might not have any direct bearing on her subsequent death. Secondly our assumption could be entirely wrong, skewed as it was by a video that made her behaviour look more bizarre and abnormal than what it really was. What if she was actually happy and on a mental high, and was playing some kind of flirtatious hide-and-seek with some person unseen? We cannot discount this possibility entirely. Indeed, when the video is viewed at correct time speed, she appears playful. I will not go too much into this as there are already long threads on the video.

    And the assumption that she was backsliding because she went off her med, what if it was the other way round? She was on a holiday on her own. She was happy, she felt good, she felt confident. What if, therefore, she was confident enough to drop her med? Thus it's not safe to assume that because she did not take her med, it was why she lapsed into her strange behaviour in the elevator.

    And as to exactly what kind of behaviour is consistent with that from a bipolar person? There is no definite pattern of how a bizarre behaviour should be. So it may include almost any kind of behaviour that seems odd.

    So even if EL were playacting in that video, people would assume she was behaving oddly because of her bipolar. That to me is the danger of concluding it is 'B' because of 'A' and 'A' leads to 'B'.

    The conclusion that she went into the water tank herself and drowned there may be correct, but there are loose ends that are not resolved, or neatly resolved.

    One is the water tank lid. My exact thoughts too that the maintenance guy might have closed the lid without thinking. But it would be hard not to think that one of the first questions investigators would have asked him would be whether the lid was open or closed when he saw it. It is so elementary to establish this important evidence right from the beginning. It is just inconceivable to me that any investigator would have overlooked it or 'miscommunicated' it to their public spokesman, and left it at that for months. It just sounds fishy. The way the maintenance worker looked away when answering that the lid was open is disconcerting. And Netflix presenting this important fact as a twist after leading audience to think otherwise is downright cheap and disgusting. I know no satisfactory answers will ever be forthcoming. So this will remain a cause for doubt.

    As for the video, the only explanation given was for the slowing of the video. If I'm not wrong, when asked about the missing seconds, the investigator gave a shrug. I take it to mean he didn't know the reason. The hotel manager gave police the videos as they were. Of course she did not tamper with the videos, but that does not mean she was sure no one else had tampered with the videos. She basically just passed on what her employees gave her.

    The missing seconds were not explained off by police but by the internet community assuming that they were edited out to exclude innocent people. But all the missing seconds happened after EL had left the scene. So why bother showing that segment in the first place? The urgency was to find EL, so why made people waste an extra one and half minute watching the elevator door closing and opening? It may actually be of no relevance, but little unexplained loose ends do add up.

    As for the pixelations, I'm not a video expert but I do know some about compression artefacts. A common one is jagged lines such as on the lift door and inside panels. But half a face breaking away in a blurry mess which then follows the face as it moves? And a sharp straight line border (not pixelated) down the middle of the face to boot? And such huge pixelations nowhere else but on the mouth which also follows it as it moves? (Interesting to note here that EL's exposed upper gum when she smiles is probably her most recognisable feature.) Can all the above be considered random compression artefacts? I hope some video people can enlighten.

    As a matter of fact, I stopped following EL case after the autopsy report came out. But something about Netflix presentation got me rethinking the case. Instead of digging for answers to the hard questions, Netflix merely re-presents all that have been discussed and speculated online. It turns the case into a moral tale and somehow managed to get all the key participants, i.e. the investigators, the hotel manager, the maintenance worker, the internet sleuths - almost everyone short of the family - in it. Knowing what Netflix can and is prepared to do to gain subscribers, its presentation roused a skepticism in me about this case that I did not have before. While most people feel sad that EL tragically lost her life because of her mental health, I feel sad because I think she was on the way up and getting more confident of herself, but tragically became the victim of someone's mischief not amounting to murder (in my own deduction). I feel sadder that she is now forever seen by most people as just a mentally ill person who has lost her life because of her own mental state.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  7. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    I think many people with bipolar disorder like the "high" and the euphoria they sometimes feel when experiencing a manic episode. I wouldn't be surprised if she did stop taking her meds because she felt more confident. That's definitely possible. It's also dangerous, especially if she stopped taking the anti-psychotic. Whether or not she was playing a game and went into the tank to hide, or she was in fear of her life, doesn't make much of a difference considering the outcome. Since her sister described her as having delusions and being paranoid when she went off her meds, that seems like the most reasonable explanation.

    I think that LE found no evidence of foul play is significant. Perpetrators almost always leave something behind. There were no prints on the ladder or around the tank, no DNA, no hairs or fibers connected to anybody else. There was no trauma or injuries on her body. I have no doubt LE searched for clues that would prove she was murdered, but they would have no choice than to rule it out if there was no evidence.

    And yes, it would have been great if the documentary had focused more on Elisa's life and her experiences rather than all the conspiracy theories, but I think Elisa's parents are very private and not willing to speak to the media. Netflix seemed to present it more of a mystery, probably to make it more interesting.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I've never felt that Elisa was just a mentally ill person who lost her life because of her mental state.
     
  8. tiktaalik

    tiktaalik the fool

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    (I am halfway through the Netflix doc so I don't know if they'll touch on this question)

    This case may have been one of the first to peak my interest into true crime, it's been itching in the back of my head for years now.

    I am throughly convinced that Elisa did not find her way into that tank on her own.

    The best thing I've learned from the doc so far is the layout of the hotel, the roof itself, and the access to that roof. The following train of thought relies on the theory that Elisa accessed the fire escape from the second floor, where the dogs last tracked her scent inside the hotel:

    If she was already dead/incapacitated before she ended up inside, someone would've had to drag her through the window, up the fire escape, up the tank, and then toss her in. That's a lot of heave lifting, and I find it hard to believe that two people could've done the cumbersome work of navigating a twisting staircase and vertical ladder; it just doesn't make feasible sense. Maybe a lone person could've succeeded with her body strapped to their back, but they'd have to be a fairly large person to do that quickly, and keep in mind the small window and narrow fire escape. Perhaps conspicuousness doesn't matter though, as people were so accustomed to horrible noises, that maybe even the sight of someone dragging a body wouldn't have flapped a seasoned Cecil resident. That being said, this was the 5th floor, which was apparently not as intense as the highest floors (though elevator surveillance footage shows her stopped in the elevator on the 14th).
    All of the above options seem improbable to me. Despite the title, I don't believe Elisa was carried at all. I think she was coaxed. Maybe she was under the influence, maybe this beautiful naive soul met a new "friend" with the worst intentions. Maybe they were playing an adorable game of hide and seek by the elevators.

    The only physical possibility that makes sense in this theory is that she went up on her own. Now, my thinking in the post is not including any theories of her entering via the stairs, I'm only relying off of the scent evidence here, there's so many possible options. As for the manner of death, with no (reported) physical trauma, I wonder if maybe she overdosed on the roof, and her companion panicked.

    I'm desperate to hear any other theories
     
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  9. norest4thewicked

    norest4thewicked True Crime Writer

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    I don't think there is a mystery here. I think she walked up herself and got in the tank herself. It might have been suicide or it might have been just a way she thought she could cool off in the heat. But, the water level went down as people used it and it was impossible for her to get back up. Very sad story but not much of a mystery in my mind.
     
  10. meanmaryjean

    meanmaryjean Verified RN (Pediatrics Specialty)

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    Agree. Sadly
     
  11. FrankieB

    FrankieB Member

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    "I feel like I lost a sister"

    "I could finally have some closure"

    "I've been to the hotel 10 times"

    Remember that guy? He should definitely be looked into, because the creep vibes were off the charts with that nutjob. He inserted himself in the case like a lunatic.
     
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  12. tiktaalik

    tiktaalik the fool

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    I suppose I should've waited until the end of the documentary to post. The ending was very sobering. This is the case that got me into true crime and unsolved mysteries, I always thought there was some twisted, wicked cause. I think you're absolutely right now, that it's all just a big, sad, misunderstanding. So unfortunate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  13. sony12

    sony12 Well-Known Member

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    Many people who have conditions that require them to take meds pretty much for the rest of their lives (be it something like Lam had or epilepsy would be another example) don't like taking their meds. Either they don't like admitting that something is wrong with them or (often is the case) the meds have some side effects that they don't like. Instead of just going to their doctor though and finding a med that is more comfortable for them they decide to try to find ways to medicate themselves. Lam definitely isn't the only example of a tragedy happening because someone decided to go off their meds. It was just a mystery so it became a popular story in the publics eye.
     
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  14. ArmchairDetective74

    ArmchairDetective74 Member

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    I get the intrigue but if occam's razor ever applied to a case this is the one.
     
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  15. sony12

    sony12 Well-Known Member

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    Yep that is also the case with most mysterious deaths/disappearances. Most amateur sleuths tend to have a habit of overthinking things.
     
  16. tiffkinsadder

    tiffkinsadder Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed the series. IMO we all have theories, ideas, thoughts, experiences, knowledge etc of cases we individually care about, regardless of the platform. In general, most people are good and just want to help.
     
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  17. Sam5286

    Sam5286 New Member

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    Morbid's song about a Chinese girl dying, where noone can hear her screams, in a deep ocean is influenced by the film Dark Waters (I think that's the name). Morbid lived at the Cecil a year before her death, someone living or working at the Cecil could have been influenced by the song and the film and killed Elisa.
    The British couple staying at the Cecil at the time said 5 days into their stay, around time the water went brown, there was a loud party going on with the smell of weed, near their room.Which floor was that on?
    I think the fact that the maintenance guy was very vague in the netflix series, not mentioning whether the lid was on or off until directly asked later on, is suspicious.
    I've checked the footage and there was definitely a ladder leaning against the 3rd water tank.
    The 50 secs missing could have been the killer, another guest, or an employee trying to get her away from the 14th floor which was out of bounds to guests. However LAPD state that there is nothing suspicious on the original hard drive copy, indicating there was noone else in the lift. So why did MSM edit those 50 secs?
    The LAPD state they dont know if it was their media department or MSM that edited the video but seemed sure it was not the hotel. Surely they could easily eliminate LAPD?
    The coroner seems to contradict himself regarding the date of the death because firstly he says the dates on the form were wrong due to human error, then he said the dates are both the same, and had been misinterpreted.Which was it human error or misinterpretation?
    When and why did Elisa stop using her birth name and change it to the name of a test for tuberculosis? Did she work in the tuberculosis clinic within her biology department?
    John Sobhani, one of the web sleuths who visited the Cecil several days after her body was found said the door alarm wasn't working when he pushed it yet Amy Price says it was working.
    LAPD state they pick up and lose her scent at the window on floor 5 where her room was, supporting the view that she went up the fire escape ladder from there. But did the dogs search every floor or just this one? Losing the scent there plays nicely into the netflix conclusion that she went from her room, up the fire escape and into the tank herself, ie NO NEGLIGENCE ON PART OF HOTEL, NO FAULTY ROOF DOOR ALARM. Was Amy lying about the alarm working?
    If she did go onto the fire escape ladder on floor 5 then she wouldn't have been able to see that on the 14th floor it changes to a ladder with no enclosed bannister.
    I find it strange that the detectives in netflix fail to mention from the outset that she had bipolar, until after the toxicology report shows psychiatric drugs. They describe her behaviour in the elevator as strange, but they must have known she was mentally ill by then. Surely the family told them when they reported her missing which caused LAPD to view it as risk to a vulnerable person and thus send 14 detectives to the Cecil. Otherwise I think it unlikely that they would have reacted so quickly and in force, to a 21 year old missing for only 24 hours. It doesn't add up that the family didn't disclose this from the start.
    I find it strange that they found no finger prints around the hatch to indicate a potential suspect.
    Why did Santiago close the hatch lid after discovering Elisa? Why is he vague about whether the lid was on or off when he discovered her?
    The body language expert said she was looking at herself in the mirror opposite the elevator and playing with her hair, showing she was aroused. I think she was trying to activate the sensor by gesticulating but the counting on her fingers, was direct communication to someone.
    She was blogging about struggling with unwanted attention from Mexicans etc and she had arranged to meet up with a guy the day before. The police eliminated him because HE SAID he didn't meet her. What if he DID come to the Cecil in anger, when she turned him down, knowing where she was staying.
    Could it be that the 50 secs missing from the tape had captured the killer but was removed on privacy grounds?
    It could have been one of the people she had arranged to meet up with or an employee, leading her up to the 14th floor to go on the roof.
     
  18. Lucirveous

    Lucirveous New Member

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    He's such a sweetheart. I feel so bad. His life is ruined, he said that in an interview I saw. Poor thing.
     

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