New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[NocturnalLady]

Yes, it's sad and disgusting that this stuff is all over the place with the advent of a new medium. Once pedophiles had to send stuff through the mail, which was easier to catch.

I too am concerned about other predators that SP and JP may be connected to. JP may have been producing this kind of material for sale. We know he didn't have any problem with making a living in WA, yet he was not living on his own but in a house where *advertiser censored* was displayed in the open and his grown brother ran around naked or in a diaper.

Here the state of WA decided that there was a "moderately high" risk that JP would hurt his kids.
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/02/18/2399308/dshs-was-wary-of-powell.html
Yet they continued with an arrangement where there was only a middle-aged woman between him and doing so. And he was a person of interest in the killing of a woman!!!!

This quote from that article is particularly upsetting.

"Jacobson had advice for visit supervisors: “911 is first call if there is any type of emergency, including fleeing with the kids.”

Why was this not communicated to the visit supervisor? Apparently she felt she had to follow protocol and call her supervisor first. Or was the new directive communicated to her and she failed to follow it?

Read more here: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/02/18/2399308/dshs-was-wary-of-powell.html#storylink=cpy

 

[gwenabob]

I am truely sorry, I thought that the mentally disabled were not encouraged to vote.
My BIL was 48 when he died but only 8 years old mentally, he never voted.
He lived in a group home, dressed nice, well mannered and even cooked, but never voted or drove a car.

I don't think Josh's brother's mental problems are of that kind. I tend to separate "mentally disabled" and "mentally ill" as two very different things.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I understand that the body starts dropping the death scent immediately upon death. If the dogs didn't pick that up from the van, that means Susan wasn't in the van after death. I think she was alive and out of it in the back of the van. I don't think Josh was strong enough to pick her up and carry her anyway. (Not that she was especially heavy, more that he was exceptionally wimpy.) I think he depended on her to be able to walk away from the car on her own two feet, supported by him. I think he hatcheted her the way he did the boys and dumped her over into a ravine or mine, and walked away.

ITA with this entire post.. I, too understand that it within moments of death that the caverdine begins to emote from the deceased.. Which the caverdine is what the HRD dogs are trained to alert on..

As far as him being wimpy ITA and believe that Susan uninjured and NOT caught off guard(which is exactly how a coward fights).. With Susan unharmed, alert, and not caught off guard IMO Susan if need be(to protect her boys) could take that wimp and mop the freakin floor with his azz!!

But injured, I too believe the wimp was dependent upon Susan to walk away from the van and the boys.. And I believe that's exactly what happened just as the boys said.. Mom and dad went in the cave searching for crystals and only daddy came back!!! :furious:

 

[NocturnalLady]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dovebar View Post
How is it possible that the psychologist in this case did 5 years of work at a facility for sex offenders, but didn't see anything off about JP's conduct and didn't recommend a psychosexual exam until presented with actual images?

I would think that if that is your background, you would ask for that evaluation when handed the case file.

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/SCC/default.shtml )End Quote)

The one thing that struck me was that the Dr. doing JP's evaluations is a PHD doctor. He was not a psychiatrist. He is a psychologist.

He diagnosed JP with a personality disorder with 60 other underlying behaviors or symptoms! That, in and of itself, would suggest that supervision would be an ongoing need. There is quite a bit of research that suggest that there is no cure for personality disorders and without successful behavior modification the patient can be a danger to himself and others. This was not going to be a short-term custody/placement arrangement and then add the newer information and the court order for a psycho-sexual exam...JP knew this was an uphill battle at best.

It disturbed me immensely that on his second home visit with the boys he showed them the three sleeping pads and said they would soon go on another camping trip... Made me wonder if he did have other plans for the boys or if this was some sort of psychological threat to keep the boys in line...as in a message to say "stop talking about our other camping trip!"

I read the whole incident of showing the boys the camping equipment as a threat.

Braden had not reacted well to the first visit that was reported in these documents. He was resistive to JP's instructions and actually disengaged from him several times.

The next time JP saw them he made a special point of showing them the camping equipment and stating that "we are all ready to go camping again". I read this as a threat from JP to the kids (but even more specifically to Braden) that he (JP) was "ready to go again". Given what the kids probably saw and knew about what happened to their mother I'm certain they would have seen this as the threat it was intended to be. JP wanted to make sure that the kids were going to remain co-operative. I think he literally was threatening their lives right there in front of the supervisor!

How this wasn't seen as being threatening or at the very least extremely insensitive and inappropriate by the visit supervisor is beyond me.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I understand that the body starts dropping the death scent immediately upon death. If the dogs didn't pick that up from the van, that means Susan wasn't in the van after death. I think she was alive and out of it in the back of the van. I don't think Josh was strong enough to pick her up and carry her anyway. (Not that she was especially heavy, more that he was exceptionally wimpy.) I think he depended on her to be able to walk away from the car on her own two feet, supported by him. I think he hatcheted her the way he did the boys and dumped her over into a ravine or mine, and walked away.

He may have put GHB in her drink, this would account for her drowsiness while Jovanna was there and she may well have vomited from the drug. He would be able to manipulate her more easily. We have ONLY his word that he went camping at 12ish. Susan may well have been in the van when they went sledding at 5something. steve would have met them at that time.

http://www.911rape.org/rape-drugs/ghb/effects-of-ghb

 

[NocturnalLady]

Thank you Dr. Fessel.

Your theory on CHS/WVPD reasons for withholding these pictures and info makes a great deal of sense. It helps me process what might otherwise be seen as blatant incompetency.

It is time now the Utah court unseal this case and release all the evidence but I think the WVPD is going to fight tooth and nail not to release it because I have a feeling these pictures are just the tip of the iceberg.

.....and in this instance I can't help but wonder what possible good can come of releasing this information. We have just been given a preview of a sick mind and it's devastating affect on all who came in contact with Josh Powell, and his family. I for one will be only too happy to walk away believing your theory, without digging any deeper.

What is beyond comprehension to me is that this man, Josh Powell,lived among us and actually seemed normal ,even somewhat meek. How do we see these "MONSTERS" hiding in plain view. For me----this is what haunts me.

I think the only way we can hope to see and hopefully stop these monsters that are living among us is by releasing all the information about this case. Only an informed public can hope to spot the signs the next time someone like JP comes around.

 

[ThoughtFox]

This quote from that article is particularly upsetting.

"Jacobson had advice for visit supervisors: “911 is first call if there is any type of emergency, including fleeing with the kids.”

Why was this not communicated to the visit supervisor? Apparently she felt she had to follow protocol and call her supervisor first. Or was the new directive communicated to her and she failed to follow it?

Read more here: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/02/18/2399308/dshs-was-wary-of-powell.html#storylink=cpy

Shades of the Sandusky scandal in which not one, but approximately four-six people decided it was better to call their supervisors rather than call 911 when a child was in danger.

Trained bureaucrats have trouble thinking what to do. My husband has worked in Human Services for the state all his adult life, and they warn them to let Supervisors talk to cops or the press. It's hard to think out of the box in an emergency when you have that drummed into you from the time you start working there.

Child Services should be different, though. This was imminent danger - how was that supervisor going to help? Baffling to me. At some point common sense has to take over. :twocents:

 

[gwenabob]

He may have put GHB in her drink, this would account for her drowsiness while Jovanna was there and she may well have vomited from the drug. He would be able to manipulate her more easily. We have ONLY his word that he went camping at 12ish. Susan may well have been in the van when they went sledding at 5something. steve would have met them at that time.

http://www.911rape.org/rape-drugs/ghb/effects-of-ghb

I totally agree about the GHB. Either that or some kind of sleeping aid. I think he was going out the door with the kids at the time the friend left though. I think he was waiting for the drug to work. Because of the alarm going off around midnight that the neighbor heard, I do think that was when he was loading a live, but fighting, Susan.

 

[DLT88]

I understand that the body starts dropping the death scent immediately upon death. If the dogs didn't pick that up from the van, that means Susan wasn't in the van after death. I think she was alive and out of it in the back of the van. I don't think Josh was strong enough to pick her up and carry her anyway. (Not that she was especially heavy, more that he was exceptionally wimpy.) I think he depended on her to be able to walk away from the car on her own two feet, supported by him. I think he hatcheted her the way he did the boys and dumped her over into a ravine or mine, and walked away.

Could be. I think by the way he absolutely made sure Charlie and Braden would not survive -- as well as his pitiful self -- he must have done the same thing to Susan. You may be right about the hatchet as well, as I cannot imagine, in the brutal way he killed those little boys, that was his first time using a hatchet on a human. He was one of the sickest beings on this planet to kill in this way. I almost think JP killed a human before Susan, too, maybe.

 

[gwenabob]

Could be. I think by the way he absolutely made sure Charlie and Braden would not survive -- as well as his pitiful self -- he must have done the same thing to Susan. You may be right about the hatchet as well, as I cannot imagine, in the brutal way he killed those little boys, that was his first time using a hatchet on a human. He was one of the sickest beings on this planet to kill in this way. I almost think JP killed a human before Susan, too, maybe.

Well, we know he killed his sister's defenseless hamster and his father chalked it up to "teenage humor!" And he threatened his mother with a knife over doing dishes. It wouldn't surprise me to find out Susan wasn't the first person he killed.

 

[DLT88]

I do, too. How I wish someone had called the police that night. We cannot know exactly how Braden and Charlie knew their mother was in the 'trunk'. Were they told? Or did they actually hear their mother's voice or moan? Maybe she was indeed still alive and he did walk her -- maybe she tried to scream but who would hear in the desert? I hope we can finally find out if any DNA was on those burnt wood pieces. I also like to think, though, that Susan was so drugged that she didn't suffer long. I have to think that about the boys, too. But I hope JP felt every flame on his skin.

 

[NocturnalLady]

A couple of thoughts here on this subject about the boys as well as the computer activity in this case as well.. Beginning with the above disturbing details newly learned about Charlie's behaviors he was displaying in school/daycare.. I cannot express enough how I deeply feel as tho JP literally had thoughts and even possibly plans at some point to lose the baggage he felt Braden was in terms of non-compliance, especially concerning any of the knowledge or memory Braden potentially had regarding Susan.. Tho, with his being so young I believe in reality he could have very little actual true memory of anything that occurred that night with Susan.. But not only could Josh not be certain of that I'm certain too that it's possible the boys at some point may have talked to one another about it, tho nothing in depth, and altogether possible that they didn't .. However again I stress that Josh Powell had no way of being certain exactly what the boys knew or remembered therefor with Braden not being as easily submissive to Josh I absolutely believe there likely were times that he possibly contemplated having to rid himself of Braden.. IMO what makes it more certain in my mind is the fact that there had actually been discussion from Josh to Charlie speaking that it would be just he and dad, brother Braden dead at the hands of the evil Mormons just like mom..

What further lends credence to these thoughts is the fact that in the 34 page psych PDF released yesterday some may remember in the documented visitations that Braden was openly defiant to Josh and made no issue to completely pull away from dad all together.. In fact totally disconnect from him with no emotion about it.. It was markedly differing from the submissive relationship with Charlie IMO.. And I totally believe that due to the fact that Braden was not as easily controlled by this monster that the monster saw him as a liability possibly causing Josh great difficulties in the future possibly even the weak link that would ultimately bring the monstrous Powell's down!!!

But without a doubt at the point we are now with hindsight a clear 20/20 I haven't a doubt that at some point Joshua Powell had truly in his mind's eye labelled his son, Braden a liability that was possibly worth getting rid of leaving just he and Charlie to carry on the sick Powell legacy.. Jmo, tho..

Plus JP did express some negativity about Braden but not Charlie. He said Braden was stubborn and could tantrum. He mentioned that Braden had said that he hated him (JP). These things would have been very upsetting to a personality like JP - a "bruised narcissist" - he would have taken that "I hate you " statement very personally and would have held a grudge. JP also had a very low tolerance for frustration so a child that was stubborn and "wouldn't walk" when he was told would have angered JP deeply, especially when Braden did this in public. In JP's mind Braden would have been doing this on purpose to make JP look bad.

Even more telling was JP's statement that "Charlie knows alot more about our family history and does not seem to be as influenced by the Cox's as Braden." In JP speak that means Charlie is more on board with the Powell mind set, he is "one of us" but Braden is a problem because he won't get with the program.

Also, isn't Charlie the one who has the same coloring as JP? The brown haired child? I think there was some lack of connection to Braden because he looked less like JP. Charlie was probably more favored because he looked more like JP and goodness knows that a narcissist loves nothing more than to "see himself" reflected back in his children. Poor Braden probably always had a black mark against him in JP's mind because he was blond.

 

[Sulamith]

I think it's totally normal for small children to know what raspberries are. There were raspberry bushes in the backyard of the house I grew up in, and my brother and I picked them and ate them from the time we were old enough to toddle around the backyard. I've seen many places in Utah where raspberries grow in the back yard. I think my parents have raspberries in their back yard in Utah right now, as do some of their neighbors. Mormons like to be self sufficient, and many have gardens, fruit trees, grape vines, raspberry bushes, strawberries, rhubarb, all kinds of things growing in their back yards. We already knew that Susan grew a lot of the food her family ate, so it's not that much of a stretch to think she may have grown raspberries. They aren't just something you buy at the store. They grow very well in cooler climates, and a lot of people have them. But as far as buying them at the store goes, I've purchased and eaten raspberries my whole adult life, so my children certainly all knew what they were at a very young age. Maybe it's just a cultural difference? Susan Cox and I both grew up in a culture that commonly puts raspberries in Jello, with whipped cream on top, and calls it a side dish. :wink:

We lived in the Mojave desert and I could barely keep my few rosebushes alive! Thanks for the explanation!

 

[dovebar]

SP never worked "in a prison." He was simply a salesman who sold furniture products that inmates manufacture. Wouldn't surprise me if he never once set foot in a prison (until his arrest) or met any of the prisoners who made the furniture. I don't know for sure, but suspect based on what we know about SP, that he doesn't really have many friends (who could stand to be around him for more than five minutes?) and probably wasn't especially liked by his co-workers. I remember reading an account by a person he was trying to sell product to who thought he was extremely icky as a salesman and she didn't want to be alone in the same room with him. I doubt he has anybody in high places he could get favors from. JMO.

Okay, I thought he worked in procurement for the prison - buying products that the prison would use, not selling them. However, I can tell you that this job may have put him into contact with inmates and it would likely have put him into contact with prison officials. It might have put him in a security loop to know certain things about prison routines. He would probably learn something about how one gets a "good" job in a prison. Because trusted inmates deliver this furniture and assemble it outside prison walls, and this can take many hours, not just deliver and drop off.

 

[MsFacetious]

I know this thought is way out there but I sincerely hope the authorities did thorough property holding searches all JP's entire family. Part of me feels like SP could have tried to 'keep' Susan as a prize captive at some point, her 'given' to him by JP. It's not completely unheard of. Several cases of missing people held captive for years have been known, and recent ones. He was just so incredibly controlling. I have a hard time believing SP would 'allow' JP to kill Susan if he had a chance to keep her as a possession. Sorry for the sick thought, but it kept occurring to me.

I have always wondered about this. Maybe even hoped there was a chance of this.

When I heard 2 weeks ago "Josh Powell killed himself and his kids..."

One of my first rational, PG rated thoughts was "I hope they DID kill Susan. If she is found alive now... that would be horrendous."

All of the above. LOL

I think we are going to find out there was evidence of violence in the home and other strong evidence Josh did her in.

I also think we will find out about some big mistakes made and how WVPD put a lot of other people in serious danger.

I agree, I have said from the beginning I thought this is what was going to happen.
I just hoped they were only putting people in danger... I always hoped that nobody else would die because of it.
There are a few police departments in Utah that I don't have a good opinion of as a whole. WVPD is certainly one of them.

Everytime I open the home page of this site, I am always drawn as to how Charlie looks like Josh but Braden resembles Susan, including personality.

I wonder if that is why Charlie said it was just him and his Dad.

This is what I think it was. Charlie looked enough like Josh and was enough like Josh that he felt he could control him.
Braden was too much like Susan... he was a liability...

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53537666-78/powell-charlie-documents-state.html.csp

Gonzalez wrote in an incident report passed along to caseworkers that students were discussing siblings during a class, during which Charlie told a teacher and classmates he didn’t have a brother. "You don’t have a brother?" a student asked.

"No, not anymore. The Mormons killed my brother and my mom," Charlie said, according to the documents. "Yeah, it’s just me and my dad."

:what:
Good grief Fessel. Way to tell a girl the news gently. illowfight:

That's about how I found out. At least she was sitting in front of a computer.

I was driving down a canyon... with a truck full of people and a trailer full of snowmobiles.
Got a text message, then another one and another one.

"Josh Powell killed himself."
Which caused momentary shock and then relief.

"And his kids."
"He blew up his house with them all in it."

I was shocked, speechless, sick to my stomach...

 

[otto]

I found the bear story very interesting ... where she was in the trunk, they dug a hole, threw rocks ... one has to wonder if that's what happened with their mother.

 

[hollyblue]

BBM

It is a rare form of suicide but it is the one that is used by people protesting what they perceive as unfair conditions.

For example, Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in 2010 to protest police harassment was what triggered the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia. Which went on to trigger the Arab Spring.

In the past few years, many Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet have self-immolated in protest of conditions under Chinese rule. The Chinese authorities are trying to keep this a secret and it is extremely difficult for journalists to get into the area. It is clear that these self-immolations are causing unease to the Chinese government.

In Afghanistan, many women have self-immolated over the past 20 years due to stress and repressive conditions. It is difficult, however, to differentiate which women chose to self-immolate from those whose husbands or other family members chose to burn them as a form of punishment or revenge.

I have no idea if any of this is what Josh Powell had in mind but as soon as I read about what had happened, that is what flashed into my mind.

When Susan first disappeared, there were a few suicides by fire discovered in UT. There was one of a woman who I believe was homeless and she was found off the highway. Another of a young man in a vechicle. It was shocking to me at the time because I had never heard of anything like in the US before, but had remembered the monks in Tibet when it was in the news.

 

[hollyblue]

And what about the rental car; the vehicle with the trunk.

IIRC, LE didn't check the van right away (nor knew about it), but it was never reported if the dogs picked up any scent. The boys did not go with JP when he took the trip with the rental....they were with Jennifer, so they could not have seen anything in the trunk. It's, jmo, and/or feeling, and I know many feel differently, but I don't think he used the rental vehicle to move her or even to check on her.

 

[hollyblue]

In the South we mostly have blackberries, but lots of people grow a blackberry-raspberry hybrid (like big blackberries with without thorns). The wild vines are both a blessing and a weed.

I grew up eating wild blackberries in cobblers or just off the vine. I used to show my kids how to pick them along the fence. My husband grew up picking raspberries and blueberries on a farm. I think kids could certainly know about raspberries and how they grow.

My husband's cousin in Michigan has huge raspberry canes growing around his house and has to trim them back or they'd take over the place.

My friends and I would pick blackberries and sell them by the quart for 25 cents :what:...Can you imagine? We would use the money to go to the Saturday Matinee, popcorn, soda and candy!!! As soon as the ticket went to 35 cents...we upped our prices also. LOL Use to tote them down the street in a little wagon...and still in our pickin' cloths---covered in the stains. Saved a few qts for our mothers...for pie, cobbler or my favorite... dumplings. Now they are $3 a pint and when on sale for $1/pt I grab all I can and freeze them.

 

[txsvicki]

He may have put GHB in her drink, this would account for her drowsiness while Jovanna was there and she may well have vomited from the drug. He would be able to manipulate her more easily. We have ONLY his word that he went camping at 12ish. Susan may well have been in the van when they went sledding at 5something. steve would have met them at that time.

http://www.911rape.org/rape-drugs/ghb/effects-of-ghb

How the evidence could have not been enough to keep children totally away from this man who turned out to be a serial killer is amazing. He even had a wet freshly cleaned spot by the door drying with a fan running. Susan showed evidence of being drugged earlier in the evening and then went missing. If the little boys said the two went into a cave, then maybe they ought to start searching caves.