New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

Oh, to add to my above post, I think you sense these things and someone like Josh would be super sensitive to every move Susan made if real life wasn't as merry as portrayed on her last day. He had her by his access to the computer at home. Summa of b. Moving money is pretty obvious if you bank online. Just login. Guess I better step back again. I have many words but they aren't very nice.

Prayers for the family. May anyone in Josh's family step up and put many thoughts to rest the better.
 
Do you have a link about this, or do you remember where it came from? I knew SP's mother remarried a third time but thought she divorced him (Mr. Ward) and that her whereabouts - living or dead - are currently unknown.

Ouita herself is buried with her last husband, Vacil Williams, at least in the same cemetery.

I think Hollyblue melded SP's mother's 2nd marriage with Ouita's 3rd marriage. Not difficult to do, given the similarities! I am almost positive that his mom is still alive, but divorced, based on lack of info. SP himself gave us the affirmation that he did return to his mother's care, saying on his website that she was "single, raising 4 children."

Also KG told us on the "Questions for family" thread a long time ago that she had married twice and SP's father married four times (the brief second marriage that occurred before JPG's birth apparently unknown to him.)
 
None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

BBM

I absolutely think Susan was a strong woman. She was working, riding a bike to work, gardening, knitting and doing any and everything she could do for her sons. She did not give up and she did not cave, she stood up for herself and her boys; it was josh who was weak and in this weakness he, presumably, murdered her.

I have been in a domestic violence shelter and work in the environment, as an advocate. I have seen weak women there. I have seen women beaten bloody who go right back into the relationship. I saw the aftermath of a 'mother' who tried to kill her 4 children so she could go back to her husband. [Fortunately the children lived and were taken away from her]

Susan had a plan to leave and she was implementing that plan; she was a courageous woman who was providing for her sons. josh got one step ahead of her. He was manipulative, devious, worthless ----. IMHO Even if she had been able to escape, he would have found her and the boys; he would have stalked her and made her life miserable. He would have been abusive to her family.

Caring for her sons did not make her weak, it made her stronger than most. She showed courage and she also was compassionate. Moreso than I would be in her situation; if it were me, he would have been eating the 'special pancakes'.


Computer use can be monitored and is impossible to completely clear. If you are afraid your internet and/or computer usage might be monitored, please use a safer computer, and/or call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−SAFE(7233) or TTY 1−800−787−3224. http://www.thehotline.org/
 
I'd just like to say this is one of the clearest, best posts I've ever read online.

This is what I've been thinking about how Josh was grooming the boys. The behavior is similar - it's sadistic. It's a person who KNOWS what they have in mind, who KNOWS what their agenda is, and who is systematically, bit by bit, torturing the person before them. I don't believe JP ever had an interest in being a father - a real father who puts the needs of his kids first - he saw them as objects to get his sexual kicks. Susan was an object to do other things - get him societal cover and legitimacy, get him kids, get him money. Abusers of this kind actually enjoy watching how much people work to try to struggle with them, because they know that they are poisoning them, or going to leave them, or going to use them for an online *advertiser censored* business, or whatever their plans are.

Sadly, that is one reason it is so hard to help someone in a relationship like this because if they are strong and capable, they work with it, find ways around it, think they can "manage" the situation.....and all the while, they are simply prey that the sadist is toying with.


But how many of us would support someone leaving a relationship because the husband keeps changing the PIN or won't let them have the car? We are always judging about whether someone should or should not leave. We don't see and support people in this kind of systemic, emotional abuse until it's too late. We need to find ways to help people see the warning signs of behavior right in the dating relationship so they never marry someone with the behavior JP exhibited as a teen. JMO

I 100% agree with everything in BOTH these posts, yours and the one you replied to. I especially agree with the last sentence, we do need to be more understanding and supportive of people in abusive relationships. Young women especially need to be educated. And they need to PAY ATTENTION!! Sometimes it starts out with emotional abuse, mind control... and then the physical abuse begins and escalates.

I was in a potentially abusive marriage when I was very young, and I thank God every day that I had the good sense to get out before it became so much worse. Unfortunately, some women do not see it until it is too late.
eta: And sometimes, there is no warning before the marriage, as it was in my case.
 
:(

I wish I had a solution. I know youth/inexperience can often be a factor. Rare insight into the abuser profile: My ex actually admitted he would target younger and younger women as victims/potential mates. He claimed the younger they were the better they 'behaved'. :furious: (Needless to say he admitted this after our divorce!)

I was 20 when I met him and had a lot of personal and family problems. However I had been following true crime and the psychology within for several years. I knew the warning signs of abuse and diagnostic criteria for many personality disorders.

A decade later I was extricating myself from a marriage to an abuser diagnosed with co-morbid NPD/APD. When I fell in love with him I'm not certain anything would have deterred me. Even knowing all the signs I never dreamed any were applicable.

Once I came out of denial though everything made sense. Every red flag that I should have seen became clear. Education, especially of emotional abuse, certainly is viable and necessary. But I worry for those who just cannot see their flags.

One thing of which I am certain is the stigma of abuse still runs rampant - even here. I could not reach out for help even when I finally had the epiphany I was in an abusive relationship due to shame and embarrassment. Often, even now, when I share my story it is met with hurtful comments over how 'stupid' and weak I was to have stayed or the ignorant belief I somehow warranted his actions.

In reality though emotional and psychological abuse is a lot like possession. You lose who you are in the process. After years of hearing you should change, you are at fault, you are the problem you honestly believe it. You stand on your head while walking on eggshells learning contortionist moves trying to fix everything about you and never suspect the issues could lie with the person who promised to love you forever. You believe they will love you better if only...

Sadistic most definitely applies.
 
Do you guy's remember the custody hearing. when they were in court SP's familly and Jp were all there arguing about the kids . Now do you remember the camera man zooming right in on JP's face while he was talking .I do not recall if this happend a few weeks before the fire Or did that all happen the same day they were all in court . If you can remember what iam talking about .then you will remember that when they were focusing on josh he looked like he was gonna exsplode and u know i really thought this was a possibilaty but i allways assumed he was gonna kill himself.
 
Do you guy's remember the custody hearing. when they were in court SP's familly and Jp were all there arguing about the kids . Now do you remember the camera man zooming right in on JP's face while he was talking .I do not recall if this happend a few weeks before the fire Or did that all happen the same day they were all in court . If you can remember what iam talking about .then you will remember that when they were focusing on josh he looked like he was gonna exsplode and u know i really thought this was a possibilaty but i allways assumed he was gonna kill himself.

Yes, I remember seeing that, and I think it was the last time in court before that fateful Sunday. I was deeply disturbed by the looks and bad energy in his eyes and face and my mouth dropped open when the judge, emotionless, said that the supervised twice-weekly visitations would continue. I said "WHAT"!? I thought he looked like a captured animal, and I didn't trust him with the children. But, I suppose a judge cannot say, "Hey, I don't like the look in your face today. No more visitations for you." Sadly, though, I wish that were legal to do so.

But I really believe he never should have had the children once those drawings were found on his computer in Utah. That showed a very serious and depraved sex drive, and even though the drawings were not illegal, it still meant he should not have been around children -- at all. No one's children even.
 
Yes, I remember seeing that, and I think it was the last time in court before that fateful Sunday. I was deeply disturbed by the looks and bad energy in his eyes and face and my mouth dropped open when the judge, emotionless, said that the supervised twice-weekly visitations would continue. I said "WHAT"!? I thought he looked like a captured animal, and I didn't trust him with the children. But, I suppose a judge cannot say, "Hey, I don't like the look in your face today. No more visitations for you." Sadly, though, I wish that were legal to do so.

But I really believe he never should have had the children once those drawings were found on his computer in Utah. That showed a very serious and depraved sex drive, and even though the drawings were not illegal, it still meant he should not have been around children -- at all. No one's children even.

Sadly, I remember thinking, "At least they're supervised." I imagined them taking place in a secure facility. Still cannot believe that the state of WA allowed anything else for this perp.
 
i have just a general question here,,,
in the mormon community, are the men considered the 'head' of the family with the woman being in subjection to him


thank you
 
i have just a general question here,,,
in the mormon community, are the men considered the 'head' of the family with the woman being in subjection to him


thank you

That's a good question Orb. I've only studied about FDLS & Jehova Witness. Not the Morman religion of today, just starting to understand it much more. I'm sure there's many of the Morman religion here that can opine on your question. Great question because I'd like to know that too!

Miss you Orb! Glad to see you! xoxo
 
Do we fear that talking to our teenagers about true psychopathology will scare them too much, or that we are overreacting?

SBM

IMHO, one can never be too protective when it comes to their children!
 
Excellent post! I try to teach my daughters to watch for those danger signs and never let a man manipulate them by calling them a bi*** or "stuck up" or anything like that. I tell my girls they don't have to do anything they don't want to do and no man has the right to make them. And if a man keeps saying things like "I won't hurt you, I *promise*!", you should turn tail and run the other way as fast as you can. I wish they would spend more time on that theme in television, movies, school, etc.

BBM

IMHO, Schools should provide classes to teach males how to treat females with repect and honor since caretakers seem to be dropping the ball over and over!
 
:(

I wish I had a solution. I know youth/inexperience can often be a factor. Rare insight into the abuser profile: My ex actually admitted he would target younger and younger women as victims/potential mates. He claimed the younger they were the better they 'behaved'. :furious: (Needless to say he admitted this after our divorce!)

I was 20 when I met him and had a lot of personal and family problems. However I had been following true crime and the psychology within for several years. I knew the warning signs of abuse and diagnostic criteria for many personality disorders.

A decade later I was extricating myself from a marriage to an abuser diagnosed with co-morbid NPD/APD. When I fell in love with him I'm not certain anything would have deterred me. Even knowing all the signs I never dreamed any were applicable.

Once I came out of denial though everything made sense. Every red flag that I should have seen became clear. Education, especially of emotional abuse, certainly is viable and necessary. But I worry for those who just cannot see their flags.One thing of which I am certain is the stigma of abuse still runs rampant - even here. I could not reach out for help even when I finally had the epiphany I was in an abusive relationship due to shame and embarrassment. Often, even now, when I share my story it is met with hurtful comments over how 'stupid' and weak I was to have stayed or the ignorant belief I somehow warranted his actions.

In reality though emotional and psychological abuse is a lot like possession. You lose who you are in the process. After years of hearing you should change, you are at fault, you are the problem you honestly believe it. You stand on your head while walking on eggshells learning contortionist moves trying to fix everything about you and never suspect the issues could lie with the person who promised to love you forever. You believe they will love you better if only...

Sadistic most definitely applies.

BBM Sentence "Once...flags."

The abusive person's, typically, charming ways override any red flags that are apparent in the beginning.

BBM Sentence "You...forever."

Great statement and analogy, thanks!...

This is so true, once your self-esteem is driven down to zero you find it hard to trust your own belief systems and feelings! It feels like a no-win situation...a catch 22 for the victim making it extremely difficult to leave, especially if the victim perceives they have no true support system, outside of the abusive relationship. IMOO
 
BBM Sentence "Once...flags."

The abusive person's, typically, charming ways override any red flags that are apparent in the beginning.

BBM Sentence "You...forever."

Great statement and analogy, thanks!...

This is so true, once your self-esteem is driven down to zero you find it hard to trust your own belief systems and feelings! It feels like a no-win situation...a catch 22 for the victim making it extremely difficult to leave, especially if the victim perceives they have no true support system, outside of the abusive relationship. IMOO

This was one of the most interesting parts of Gavin de Becker's book to me - when he talks about what "charming" is. IIRC, he talks about con men and how they specifically use techniques of body language, eye contact, and other behaviors to "charm," (often rapid speech, prolonged eye contact, and invading your body space just slightly) and how this quality in a person shouldn't be considered a good thing, and wasn't in history. Literally, the person is trying to "charm" you or put you into a state where you can't notice other things about their behavior. They're trying to capture your attention in a specific way so you won't see other things. This is the essence of the salesperson who isn't overtly slimy or the preacher who gets little old ladies to write out checks they can't afford or the old fashioned snake oil salesman who convinces you to do something or buy something that is worthless. I've never looked at "charming" people the same way again. But I wish I'd read that at 14.
 
i have just a general question here,,,
in the mormon community, are the men considered the 'head' of the family with the woman being in subjection to him


thank you

I am a Mormon. Simple answer: No.

More complex answer: Fathers are the patriarchs of the family and he should lead with love and never ending patience the same way Christ leads the church. Fathers and mothers are equal partners in the relationship and leading the family. Any man who abuses his wife or children can be excommunicated from the church. Women do not have to put up with abuse under any circumstances. Women are not bound by any rule to do what their husband tells them to do simply because he has a penis and she does not. But a wise woman and a wise man will put their relationship first and work differences out in a reasonable way, listening to each other and and putting the welfare of their partner above their own wants. It sounds to me like Susan was doing that and Josh was not. I believe one reason he quit going to church is because he felt the disapproval of his fellow ward members in the way he was treating his wife.

Because the LDS church does so much to foster and teach leadership skills and self sufficiency, there are very few "shrinking violets" in the female membership. In my experience they are competent, and confident. Susan just rushed into a marriage with a bad egg. I wish she would have listened to her parents and waited a bit. JMO.
 
I am a Mormon. Simple answer: No.

More complex answer: Fathers are the patriarchs of the family and he should lead with love and never ending patience the same way Christ leads the church. Fathers and mothers are equal partners in the relationship and leading the family. Any man who abuses his wife or children can be excommunicated from the church. Women do not have to put up with abuse under any circumstances. Women are not bound by any rule to do what their husband tells them to do simply because he has a penis and she does not. But a wise woman and a wise man will put their relationship first and work differences out in a reasonable way, listening to each other and and putting the welfare of their partner above their own wants. It sounds to me like Susan was doing that and Josh was not. I believe one reason he quit going to church is because he felt the disapproval of his fellow ward members in the way he was treating his wife.

Because the LDS church does so much to foster and teach leadership skills and self sufficiency, there are very few "shrinking violets" in the female membership. In my experience they are competent, and confident. Susan just rushed into a marriage with a bad egg. I wish she would have listened to her parents and waited a bit. JMO.

Gwenabob, I appreciate your view of your religion . . . .however, I have a different perspective. I was "converted" to the LDS church at age 12 when my Mother married a Mormon man. My experience is some 40 years ago now, but I will never forget the lessons that I learned during the time I spent being "faithful" and "keeping sweet". I know that my experience is not every Mormon's and I would not want to generalize to the entire church population but it was not as you described it for me. My Step-Father was quite well-to-do and a major entity in the Professional arena in our city. He had 7 kids with his wife he married in the Temple, along with 2 other illigitimate children with two other women. He was never "ex-communicated" and just kept paying his "10% tithing". He was never "dis-fellowshiped". He and all of the Bishops' and Elders would go on long vacations together (ie: Mexico). As soon as they hit the "border" they began drinking excessively. (apparently "Word of Wisdom" doesn't apply there). He beat me repeatedly when I questioned his authority (especially when he attempted to take my own Father's rights away and not let me see my Dad). After one particularly brutal beating, I ran away to my Father's home and never went back. What I learned from the LDS religion was:

1) How to be a really good liar (there are no other options sometimes).
2) How to look good to others - and keep secrets.
3) Knowing when to "keep sweet" and not talk back (especially in front of Men)
4) "Shrinking Violets" were preferred to anyone with a different opinion.
5) Never question authority . . . .there will be consequences!
6) The church controlled members through gossip and intimidation.
7) Your personal business was everyone's knowledge by the following Sunday (if it took that long).
8) If you were Male and had some money, you would be protected by your fellow Members, as long as you kept paying tithing.
9) Women and children are not "equal" in the church. They cannot hold Priesthood, can't get their own "Universe" in the Celestial Kingdom, and must be "sealed" to a Man (Priesthood head) in order to enter the 3 degrees of Heaven.

Of course, I should let everyone know that this was still during the time that "People of Color" were considered decendents of "Cain" and wore the "mark of the Beast" according to the Doctorine I was taught in the LDS religion.
Supposedly, they have changed their stance on this issue over the last 20 years, but it was part of their original beliefs from the beginning - just like polygamy/polygeny (sic?) changed over the years.

I am not trying to "Mormon Bash" here, I am only offering my experience. It sounds like the church has been making concentrated efforts in the past few years to rectify these long held beliefs.

I am telling you all of this because this "ideology" sounds more like what JP had adopted for his own, vs. the newer version of the LDS faith that Gwenabob has described above.

Please note, I do not wish to offend anyone's faith or beliefs - only explain from my perspective.
 
Gwenabob, I appreciate your view of your religion . . . .however, I have a different perspective. I was "converted" to the LDS church at age 12 when my Mother married a Mormon man. My experience is some 40 years ago now, but I will never forget the lessons that I learned during the time I spent being "faithful" and "keeping sweet". I know that my experience is not every Mormon's and I would not want to generalize to the entire church population but it was not as you described it for me. My Step-Father was quite well-to-do and a major entity in the Professional arena in our city. He had 7 kids with his wife he married in the Temple, along with 2 other illigitimate children with two other women. He was never "ex-communicated" and just kept paying his "10% tithing". He was never "dis-fellowshiped". He and all of the Bishops' and Elders would go on long vacations together (ie: Mexico). As soon as they hit the "border" they began drinking excessively. (apparently "Word of Wisdom" doesn't apply there). He beat me repeatedly when I questioned his authority (especially when he attempted to take my own Father's rights away and not let me see my Dad). After one particularly brutal beating, I ran away to my Father's home and never went back. What I learned from the LDS religion was:

1) How to be a really good liar (there are no other options sometimes).
2) How to look good to others - and keep secrets.
3) Knowing when to "keep sweet" and not talk back (especially in front of Men)
4) "Shrinking Violets" were preferred to anyone with a different opinion.
5) Never question authority . . . .there will be consequences!
6) The church controlled members through gossip and intimidation.
7) Your personal business was everyone's knowledge by the following Sunday (if it took that long).
8) If you were Male and had some money, you would be protected by your fellow Members, as long as you kept paying tithing.
9) Women and children are not "equal" in the church. They cannot hold Priesthood, can't get their own "Universe" in the Celestial Kingdom, and must be "sealed" to a Man (Priesthood head) in order to enter the 3 degrees of Heaven.

Of course, I should let everyone know that this was still during the time that "People of Color" were considered decendents of "Cain" and wore the "mark of the Beast" according to the Doctorine I was taught in the LDS religion.
Supposedly, they have changed their stance on this issue over the last 20 years, but it was part of their original beliefs from the beginning - just like polygamy/polygeny (sic?) changed over the years.

I am not trying to "Mormon Bash" here, I am only offering my experience. It sounds like the church has been making concentrated efforts in the past few years to rectify these long held beliefs.

I am telling you all of this because this "ideology" sounds more like what JP had adopted for his own, vs. the newer version of the LDS faith that Gwenabob has described above.

Please note, I do not wish to offend anyone's faith or beliefs - only explain from my perspective.


I am sorry that was your experience. I have been a member for over 35 years and I have never experienced anything like you described above. Never.
 
Gwenabob, I appreciate your view of your religion . . . .however, I have a different perspective. I was "converted" to the LDS church at age 12 when my Mother married a Mormon man. My experience is some 40 years ago now, but I will never forget the lessons that I learned during the time I spent being "faithful" and "keeping sweet". I know that my experience is not every Mormon's and I would not want to generalize to the entire church population but it was not as you described it for me. My Step-Father was quite well-to-do and a major entity in the Professional arena in our city. He had 7 kids with his wife he married in the Temple, along with 2 other illigitimate children with two other women. He was never "ex-communicated" and just kept paying his "10% tithing". He was never "dis-fellowshiped". He and all of the Bishops' and Elders would go on long vacations together (ie: Mexico). As soon as they hit the "border" they began drinking excessively. (apparently "Word of Wisdom" doesn't apply there). He beat me repeatedly when I questioned his authority (especially when he attempted to take my own Father's rights away and not let me see my Dad). After one particularly brutal beating, I ran away to my Father's home and never went back. What I learned from the LDS religion was:

1) How to be a really good liar (there are no other options sometimes).
2) How to look good to others - and keep secrets.
3) Knowing when to "keep sweet" and not talk back (especially in front of Men)
4) "Shrinking Violets" were preferred to anyone with a different opinion.
5) Never question authority . . . .there will be consequences!
6) The church controlled members through gossip and intimidation.
7) Your personal business was everyone's knowledge by the following Sunday (if it took that long).
8) If you were Male and had some money, you would be protected by your fellow Members, as long as you kept paying tithing.
9) Women and children are not "equal" in the church. They cannot hold Priesthood, can't get their own "Universe" in the Celestial Kingdom, and must be "sealed" to a Man (Priesthood head) in order to enter the 3 degrees of Heaven.

Of course, I should let everyone know that this was still during the time that "People of Color" were considered decendents of "Cain" and wore the "mark of the Beast" according to the Doctorine I was taught in the LDS religion.
Supposedly, they have changed their stance on this issue over the last 20 years, but it was part of their original beliefs from the beginning - just like polygamy/polygeny (sic?) changed over the years.

I am not trying to "Mormon Bash" here, I am only offering my experience. It sounds like the church has been making concentrated efforts in the past few years to rectify these long held beliefs.

I am telling you all of this because this "ideology" sounds more like what JP had adopted for his own, vs. the newer version of the LDS faith that Gwenabob has described above.

Please note, I do not wish to offend anyone's faith or beliefs - only explain from my perspective.

wenwe4, I am 55 yrs. old, former LDS and I know what you are talking about. I was also taught about the mark of Cain. My husband lived in Alta Loma/Cucamonga, Ca and he spoke about the LDS men going over to Mexico. I wonder if you lived there in the 1970's? When I heard that the Coxes said JP stated that the Mormons were out to steal them and when Charlie stated that Mormons killed his Mom and brother, I thought that maybe JP was really into early Mormonism as in the Danites: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite"]Danite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

JP probably was not aware of early Mormon history, but that is where my mind took me as I was taught all of this as a child. I do think Mormons have evolved from their early history. But when I read JP Mormon bashing I could not help it, I thought of the Danites. I thought maybe his father had indoctrinated him into early Mormon history.
 
My experience in the church is like wenwe's and sulasmith's, unfortunately.

However, I know lots of Mormon women and families more like Gwenabobs and I am glad for that.

My great, great grandparents were pioneers with the John Higby Company. I am 47 years old and still have flashbacks from the patriarchal abuse experienced in my family of origin.
 

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