NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female, 23-33, & 3 Children, under 11, Nov'85 & May'00 #3

[onceuponadecember]

There may be a connection between the families we don't know about, or several.
Even if not by direct union or by blood, but by in-laws or siblings marrying to an in-law family of the other branch, there was a chance of infidelity resulting in a child, and no one would ever know.
For example, as I'm sure others have discovered, TJ Mitchell lived in close proximity to his future wife when she was five, so he was most likely familiar with the Henleys for years before they got married. One of Lourana's brother's descendants married a Livings granddaughter. No Mitchell connection, but they were related by marriage and most likely the two families knew each other. I think TJ and William lived on the same street at one point.
And, for all we know, TJ dallied with one of Lourana's sisters or aunts. Or one of the daughters or wives of the families he boarded with before he went off to war. This is why I look at everything. Pages and pages of censuses, even after I've found who I'm looking for.
Also, when you say unaccounted for daughter, are you referring to the MC herself, or her mum?

Unaccounted in terms of MC's mother.

 

[Alleykins]

Unaccounted in terms of MC's mother.

I haven't come across unaccounted for daughters or daughters who disappeared or met an untimely death at about the time TPR would have come into her life, within her age range, either. I'm beginning to think she had the MC on the down low and no one in her family knew about her, or they knew, but believed she gave the baby up for adoption and don't recognize the MC for who she is. There's a chance we could come across a whole line of sisters who could be her mother, but have since passed, and we'll never know who her mother is, like that poor reporter who found his maternal family, but there were 4 sisters who could be his grandma, and they'd since passed without telling anyone one of them had given a baby (the reporter' mother) up for adoption. And the four sisters looked so much alike, there wasn't a way to narrow it down. Similar to what D/L is going through with her paternal side.

 

[Alleykins]

Reposting since it was buried in one of my previous comments:

Does anyone know who we can contact about if there's any connection to the Spiers and if the descendant would be of their unions with their wives? I feel without some clarity we're kind of paddling against the current.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I'd also like to add a likely branch - Spiers. I'm 90% certain that this girl would've had at least one great great grandparent who was a Spiers, perhaps even closer

Yep, agreed.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Which specific Spiers line are we looking at right now?

 

[Shane 65]

It only took 15-20 mins to confirm that JRB is NOT MC's mother as neither the Mitchell nor Livings line is present in her direct pedigree. She's from MS, but family originated in another area as well as Arkansas.

The only thing that would rule her out as being the mother is DNA. We have no idea who her grandmother or grandfather slept with or anyone else in her line.

 

[Shane 65]

It only took 15-20 mins to confirm that JRB is NOT MC's mother as neither the Mitchell nor Livings line is present in her direct pedigree. She's from MS, but family originated in another area as well as Arkansas.

The only thing that would rule her out as being the mother is DNA. We have no idea who her grandmother or grandfather slept with or anyone else in her line.

 

[insatiable]

I didn’t know we had a thread on this here. I worked on this tree a while back. If I remember correctly I have Livings & Spiers, Burton & Mitchell as the great or great-great grandparents. From them it goes S. Livings marries C. Burton. This couple has at least 4 daughters. I think one of these four is possibly the mom or grand mother. I’ll have to go back and check my tree. Is this the same as what you all have?

 

[Alleykins]

John Spiers, father of JP.
The descendants of JP and his brothers appear to be the ones

I didn’t know we had a thread on this here. I worked on this tree a while back. If I remember correctly I have Livings & Spiers, Burton & Mitchell as the great or great-great grandparents. From them it goes S. Livings marries C. Burton. This couple has at least 4 daughters. I think one of these four is possibly the mom or grand mother. I’ll have to go back and check my tree. Is this the same as what you all have?

Not sure about everyone working on this freelance, but I came across this intermarriage from the get go. And figured because it was so easy for me, who is extremely inexperienced, to find it, those in the know most likely stumbled upon it, too, and were vetting it out.

I just wish I knew if that vetting process included calling these women, some of them who could be a grandmother of the MC, as some are still alive, even though they're in their 80s and 90s. I say this because a lot of their daughters were of the right age range, but some have passed. Time is of the essence here, to hear it from the horse's mouth. I hope they're not working under the assumption the MC's mother disappeared or was murdered, and skipping over female descendants who are still alive or otherwise don't fit the narrative.

 

[insatiable]

Guys, I just saw an update on a FB group from one of CLB x SL's descendent (great grandson), and he said he submitted his DNA , and he was not a close enough match. He believes that JD's mother must be from another mitchell x livings pairing aside from CLB x SL or EMB x JG. He said he did not know another one existed, so he is trying to do some digging himself. sigh. I thought we were so close....

Ahh, disregard my last post. I’m just reading this.

 

[Alleykins]

Plus, this family is so close, I'm sure every Livings/Mitchell/Spiers cousin on social media is aware their genealogy is being researched. That's why I'm thinking it's someone who lost touch with the inner circle and moved away.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Plus, this family is so close, I'm sure every Livings/Mitchell/Spiers cousin on social media is aware their genealogy is being researched. That's why I'm thinking it's someone who lost touch with the inner circle and moved away.

I'm going through the branch that's in the Houston area right now, Spiers/Mitchell marriage. Believe it or not, I just found the father of a college friend... he is the brother of someone who married into that line; big TX ranch family.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Well it turned out to be a red herring - the man had no daughters and his granddaughters are too young to be MC's mother.

Is this JFS? Just wanting to circle back and double check on this because that's where I am on relabeling all of Deadhorse's descendents.

 

[Shane 65]

I'm talking about elimination since there is either
A) No Livings-Mitchell connection
B) No evidence of an unaccounted for daughter

I see.

 

[Al Ka]

There's also the possibility that any of the women/girls could have been pregnant before marriage and the child adopted out. That wouldn't show up on any official records.

I personally don't think that MC was adopted out, for simple reasons - Terry knew of her existence but most importantly he knew where and from who to pick her up 2-3 years later. If she was adopted out, he would not know those basic details.

I still do think some answers lay in Ingleside, Tx and Houston Bay area of Texas where he worked and lived very likely with newborn MC and MC's mom from around '76 to first half of '78.

I really wish police went through their paper archives and check for his DUIs or other arrests of those years in that area of Texas. It could really help to reveal some extra info, especially as he still used his real name.

It would be good to check the same in years '82-83 when I suspect he revisited the same area with Lisa and probably Denise (if still alive then). Problem is he no longer used his real name in those years.

Woud FOIA request help to find any of those arrest details between years '76-78?

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I personally don't think that MC was adopted out, for simple reasons - Terry knew of her existence but most importantly he knew where and from who to pick her up 2-3 years later. If she was adopted out, he would not know those basic details.

I still do think some answers lay in Ingleside, Tx and Houston Bay area of Texas where he worked and lived very likely with newborn MC and MC's mom from around '76 to first half of '78.

I really wish police went through their paper archives and check for his DUIs or other arrests of those years in that area of Texas. It could really help to reveal some extra info, especially as he still used his real name.

It would be good to check the same in years '82-83 when I suspect he revisited the same area with Lisa and probably Denise (if still alive then). Problem is he no longer used his real name in those years.

Woud FOIA request help to find any of those arrest details between years '76-78?

Possibly. I’m going through the family trees to see who may have been in that particular area at the time - there were a LOT of Mitchell family members in the Nederland/Port Arthur area which is known for oil rigs - and then possibly if I see a larger pattern with women in that age range I may make an open records request or keep digging through the TX birth index. The main issue with TX is that if we have one parents name the birth certificate will pop up pretty immediately on Ancestry and it usually lists both parents… so there is a possibility MC was born in either California or Louisiana as well.

 

[Eddie99]

The genealogy aspect of this is NOT my long suit. Y'all sound like your doing a great job.

The thing I keep coming back to is his name change. There must be a reason why he started using those aliases.

When he met M H. He was using his real name. Presumably he had the middle child with him at the point he met M.H.. Which to me seems to indicate he hadn't done anything wrong yet, or planned to do anything wrong.
He was just plain ol' TPR at that point.

Do we know for sure if he brought the middle child around MH and family?

If he did....

I can only think of a few scenarios that would explain him having the MC instead of the mother.

1. He was still with the mother in a quasi family situation. And was seeing MH one the side. When he decided to take up with MH, he killed the mother of mc and disposed of her. *which would perhaps drive the need to use an alias from that point on.

2. The mother of MC was in jail, or otherwise indisposed while he met MH. He took off with the kid, and needed an alias so she couldn't track him.

3. She was dead, or in a state of being where she didn't care about the child (drugs or something).

I hope that makes sense.

I still can't imagine a reason mh would have left with him, when all the sudden he needs to use an alias and moves 3000 miles away.

Something must have happened.

 

[Alleykins]

The genealogy aspect of this is NOT my long suit. Y'all sound like your doing a great job.

The thing I keep coming back to is his name change. There must be a reason why he started using those aliases.

When he met M H. He was using his real name. Presumably he had the middle child with him at the point he met M.H.. Which to me seems to indicate he hadn't done anything wrong yet, or planned to do anything wrong.
He was just plain ol' TPR at that point.

Do we know for sure if he brought the middle child around MH and family?

If he did....

I can only think of a few scenarios that would explain him having the MC instead of the mother.

1. He was still with the mother in a quasi family situation. And was seeing MH one the side. When he decided to take up with MH, he killed the mother of mc and disposed of her. *which would perhaps drive the need to use an alias from that point on.

2. The mother of MC was in jail, or otherwise indisposed while he met MH. He took off with the kid, and needed an alias so she couldn't track him.

3. She was dead, or in a state of being where she didn't care about the child (drugs or something).

I hope that makes sense.

I still can't imagine a reason mh would have left with him, when all the sudden he needs to use an alias and moves 3000 miles away.

Something must have happened.

I suspect having to pay child support to two different mothers was the main reason he changed his name. And not to cast any aspersion on MH, but she used aliases, too, of sorts. Besides her former name and her two married names, she also used her stepfather's name, according to forum posts by her family 20 years ago. When they left California, they both had valid reasons to reinvent themselves.
Also, according to MH's family, they were not aware of the MC, she was not at Thanksgiving dinner in 1978, the last time her family saw MH. They never saw or met her, and didn't know she existed at that time.
However, in the 2015 press conference, the AG said the five of them were living as a family unit in NH, going so far as to say the MC ate what they ate, drank the same water the other 3 victims did, the last 2 weeks to three months before their deaths. So MH & her daughters would have known the MC.
I also posited a year or two ago that there was a chance the MC's mother was incarcerated and unable to search for her daughter, and either died in prison, got out and couldn't find them because TPR changed his name, or is still in jail.
I think they stopped and picked up the MC along the way, maybe stayed where she lived for a month or two, before heading to NH.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I have a couple off-the-cuff theories to this based off the statistical stuff I've gotten so far from my Ancestry list:
- I think there is a strong possibility that MC's mother was either very young or was attending school of some sort while TPR took MC.
- Incarceration theory also looks like it could work, but I don't currently see anyone on my list where that would fit.
- I also think there could be a strong possibility that MC's mother had a husband in the military on deployment or something similar and didn't want to raise suspicions when he came home, so MC was sent with TPR. There are a few women who would fit that criteria.
- There have been quite a few people in this extended family that have died young or had severe developmental issues (presumably some of this may have to do with endogamy/possible incest) - enough so that if someone's baby died/was gone/sent away all of the sudden it may not have raised as many eyebrows as one may think.
- Going back to the military theory there is a STRONG possibility that some of these men/potential grandfathers might have had illegitimate children. I have seen MULTIPLE men in the age range that could be MC's maternal grandfather stationed in places like Contra Costa county, south TX, etc. where TPR was known to have been. Oftentimes in that time period illegitimate children were "adopted" by their stepparent or raised with the grandparents - I saw a case in this family where a teen mom (15/16) had her parents help raise her two boys and they were listed in her (6+ years younger) brother's obituary as his brothers, yet in Dad's obit a few years later they were listed as grandkids.

Additionally the isotope stuff that they've brought to the forefront in 2015 is really hit or miss. I am not sure how accurate it is in this case but I would think that yes, MH and her daughters would have known MC for a short period. I would wager a guess that maybe after the Thanksgiving dinner they swung back to pick up MC on the way and went to NH where they were eventually killed.

 

[carbuff]

I personally don't think that MC was adopted out, for simple reasons - Terry knew of her existence but most importantly he knew where and from who to pick her up 2-3 years later. If she was adopted out, he would not know those basic details.

snipped by carbuff

I personally don't think TR knew anything about the middle child until the mother/relative/caregiver showed up on his doorstep with her shortly before she was murdered.

I wasn't thinking of a formal adoption so much as the kind of arrangement families often make within themselves to deal with death, incarceration, scandal, etc. So maybe something like the mother meets a guy who doesn't know about the baby and the caretaker decided she didn't want to permanently raise the child and took her to the father. Given when TR started to use aliases, it seems possible he might still have been in occasional touch with others at that point.

I agree it's somewhat less likely than other explanations, but at this point the likely options haven't panned out...