NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

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I was thinking it might be good to look at cases where there is suspected custodial kidnapping by a mother. Maybe a crazy dad got tired of child payments... Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I was thinking something similar, except a dad taking off with the middle child. There's a whole other family out there, including a mother, missing that little girl.
 
I’ve been studying this case for close to a year now and on my opinion, the victim recognition –centered approach may harm solving it. The thing is – if they had been noticed missing or reported at some point, they would already be known. I'm very new on this site and English is my third language, so excuse me for my clumsiness. If someone finds anything here useful in a poster or anything, please feel free to use it and fix it if you think that helps. I’m not saying the case is unsolvable, far from that. But the idea of looking for a missing family might be a problem. Here is my best guess about what we should be looking for instead since it probably is what people might recognize:

Hey, do you remember us?

We’re the Doe family and we might have been your neighbors in the late 70’s or early 80’s. Our real names are not known but you can call me Sandra. I’m the mother and I was propably 20-32 years old when you knew me. Probably we weren’t neighbors too long.

I lived with three children, ”Molly”, ”Bet” and ”Mary”, all of them younger than 11. ”Bet” may not be biologically related to us and maybe she joined our family later, but I would love to find her name just as much as I want to find the others. If you think you recognize us or know anything about us, please let people know.

We were a low-income family, not staying too long in one place. We lived in trailers, motels or other inexpensive rental places for sort whiles. The time you met us we propably lived with ”John”, the father of Molly, Mary and possibly Bet, or had recently separated from him. All of us are white or native american origin. Bet may have John’s daughter from another mother or related to him another way and she may have moved to our place later.

The time you met us, John was probably 20–40 –year old man, working short contracts as a construction worker or something similar, travelling throught the country for work. We followed him and due to our moving lifestyle, the children didn’t attend school much. I wasn’t in contact with my parents much and didn’t have too many friends and by the time we went missing, nobody noticed.

My relationship with John was never great. He was an impatient man and that has probably been present both in his working life and at home. Then maybe one day, if we were neighbors near Allentown in New Hampshire, we weren’t living with him anymore. Maybe you asked John about us or he told you that we moved back to my parents, or that I moved to another state with the kids. Shortly after that, John left again to seek job elsewhere. Maybe others asked about us too, and John said that I left him for another man, or that social services took the kids, or that I got work somewhere and moved with the kids and he’d follow. If John told you that, he lied.

We died between 1977 and 1985. John disposed our bodies in two metal barrels he may have taken from his workplace, and dumped us in a forest near Bear Brook Garden Trailer Park. If you think you know us or you think you have any useful information related to us, please share it.
 
I've been scouring genealogy forums for missing women and daughters from the 70's and 80's. Any time I find one, send the info to the woman who runs the blog, and both of us research it as much as possible. I have two new ones lately. The first one is Heather Ann Waldman. https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...0151645402100858&source=48&ref=content_filter Although I think she has been found, maybe.

The next one is a missing woman from the early 70's https://www.reddit.com/r/gratefuldoe/comments/59pbbs/from_facebooks_random_acts_of_genealogical/ Mary Mccafferty.

I can't find any missing persons report on either case. I did try to contact the woman who posted about Heather and the DA, but have not heard back.

Mary is also being worked on.
 
Also, the owner of the blog has tracked down many of the people who lived in Bear Brook during that time frame.
 
It is the really sad cases that can drop off the face of the world and no one notices. As bad as Kaylee Anthony case was, at least her grandmother kept her from falling into the "forever" of that "barrel." One small solace to be take from that sordid mess.

I am guessing that many teachers have experienced having children in their classes who fit into transient families like Pavel's description; and while you "suspect," you can't prove anything before they are "gone" again. The kids don't know any better, and sometimes you wonder if the parents do. And then you wonder what you could,or should, have done for the one child of many who crossed your career life.
 
:welcome: Pavel. Your English is great! I really like your "storytelling" approach to this case. I think it's true that people are more likely to remember a situation rather than specific transient people from that long ago. I can imagine reading your scenario and thinking...

"This sounds like that lady and her kids who came to the laundromat a few times while I was there. She was really nice and we chatted while we folded our laundry. I met her husband once when he helped her load the car. He wasn't very friendly. I hadn't seen the mom and kids for awhile, so when I ran into him I asked about them. I think he said they were visiting the grandparents. Then I stopped seeing him around town too. I wonder if they are the woman and kids found in barrels. I know they told me their names. I'll check my diary. Maybe I wrote about them."

I don't research this case, but it tugs at me so I pop in once in awhile. I hope your idea can be used if it hasn't been already. I think it has merit, especially if it can be put forth on a nationwide TV show or something.

BBM
I’ve been studying this case for close to a year now and on my opinion, the victim recognition –centered approach may harm solving it. The thing is – if they had been noticed missing or reported at some point, they would already be known. I'm very new on this site and English is my third language, so excuse me for my clumsiness. If someone finds anything here useful in a poster or anything, please feel free to use it and fix it if you think that helps. I’m not saying the case is unsolvable, far from that. But the idea of looking for a missing family might be a problem. Here is my best guess about what we should be looking for instead since it probably is what people might recognize:

Hey, do you remember us?

We’re the Doe family and we might have been your neighbors in the late 70’s or early 80’s. Our real names are not known but you can call me Sandra. I’m the mother and I was propably 20-32 years old when you knew me. Probably we weren’t neighbors too long.

I lived with three children, ”Molly”, ”Bet” and ”Mary”, all of them younger than 11. ”Bet” may not be biologically related to us and maybe she joined our family later, but I would love to find her name just as much as I want to find the others. If you think you recognize us or know anything about us, please let people know.

We were a low-income family, not staying too long in one place. We lived in trailers, motels or other inexpensive rental places for sort whiles. The time you met us we propably lived with ”John”, the father of Molly, Mary and possibly Bet, or had recently separated from him. All of us are white or native american origin. Bet may have John’s daughter from another mother or related to him another way and she may have moved to our place later.

The time you met us, John was probably 20–40 –year old man, working short contracts as a construction worker or something similar, travelling throught the country for work. We followed him and due to our moving lifestyle, the children didn’t attend school much. I wasn’t in contact with my parents much and didn’t have too many friends and by the time we went missing, nobody noticed.

My relationship with John was never great. He was an impatient man and that has probably been present both in his working life and at home. Then maybe one day, if we were neighbors near Allentown in New Hampshire, we weren’t living with him anymore. Maybe you asked John about us or he told you that we moved back to my parents, or that I moved to another state with the kids. Shortly after that, John left again to seek job elsewhere. Maybe others asked about us too, and John said that I left him for another man, or that social services took the kids, or that I got work somewhere and moved with the kids and he’d follow. If John told you that, he lied.

We died between 1977 and 1985. John disposed our bodies in two metal barrels he may have taken from his workplace, and dumped us in a forest near Bear Brook Garden Trailer Park. If you think you know us or you think you have any useful information related to us, please share it.
 
Thank you, Lilibet.
I've been thinking that the best chance to identify them would probably be either a friendly lady who has lived nearby (maybe someone who had own children or grandchildren or just liked kids), a schoolmate or a teacher who remembers teaching one of the older kids a while, or maybe even "Sandra's" or "John's" relatives who probably have no idea Sandra and the children are dead. I am quite certain somebody's been thinking all these years "I wonder where Sandra lives nowadays" or "I wonder if Bet really became a veterinary like she said as a kid" but this person or these people probably do not think and can not even imagine the horrible possibility that they are really "missing" and have been dead for decades. People very likely just assume they have lost contact.
Because of this, I've been thinking about a more "story-ish" approach and maybe some sympathetic lively drawings or something else to refresh people's memories about them as a living family might help the most. It's entirely possible Sandra's family has been searching her and wonders where she went but they simply don't dare to believe she might be really missing or dead and so the important ends still wait to be tied together.
 
I’ve been studying this case for close to a year now and on my opinion, the victim recognition –centered approach may harm solving it. The thing is – if they had been noticed missing or reported at some point, they would already be known. I'm very new on this site and English is my third language, so excuse me for my clumsiness. If someone finds anything here useful in a poster or anything, please feel free to use it and fix it if you think that helps. I’m not saying the case is unsolvable, far from that. But the idea of looking for a missing family might be a problem. Here is my best guess about what we should be looking for instead since it probably is what people might recognize:

Hey, do you remember us?

We’re the Doe family and we might have been your neighbors in the late 70’s or early 80’s. Our real names are not known but you can call me Sandra. I’m the mother and I was propably 20-32 years old when you knew me. Probably we weren’t neighbors too long.

I lived with three children, ”Molly”, ”Bet” and ”Mary”, all of them younger than 11. ”Bet” may not be biologically related to us and maybe she joined our family later, but I would love to find her name just as much as I want to find the others. If you think you recognize us or know anything about us, please let people know.

We were a low-income family, not staying too long in one place. We lived in trailers, motels or other inexpensive rental places for sort whiles. The time you met us we propably lived with ”John”, the father of Molly, Mary and possibly Bet, or had recently separated from him. All of us are white or native american origin. Bet may have John’s daughter from another mother or related to him another way and she may have moved to our place later.

The time you met us, John was probably 20–40 –year old man, working short contracts as a construction worker or something similar, travelling throught the country for work. We followed him and due to our moving lifestyle, the children didn’t attend school much. I wasn’t in contact with my parents much and didn’t have too many friends and by the time we went missing, nobody noticed.

My relationship with John was never great. He was an impatient man and that has probably been present both in his working life and at home. Then maybe one day, if we were neighbors near Allentown in New Hampshire, we weren’t living with him anymore. Maybe you asked John about us or he told you that we moved back to my parents, or that I moved to another state with the kids. Shortly after that, John left again to seek job elsewhere. Maybe others asked about us too, and John said that I left him for another man, or that social services took the kids, or that I got work somewhere and moved with the kids and he’d follow. If John told you that, he lied.

We died between 1977 and 1985. John disposed our bodies in two metal barrels he may have taken from his workplace, and dumped us in a forest near Bear Brook Garden Trailer Park. If you think you know us or you think you have any useful information related to us, please share it.

I did something similar a few months ago, but focusing on the unrelated child because her isotope areas were smaller. I wanted to do another focusing on the woman and 10 year old but also all of them but my main computer has been down since the end of July. I just got it running 2 days ago.

When my computer went down, I was getting ready to share it to a few Native American FB pages and groups.

Do you recognize this possibly Native American/ Caucasian Female Aged 3 to 4 Years Old Born Between 1976 and 1980?
 
Marking my spot here after seeing them on NCMEC yesterday. Just got to catch up!
 
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_julie.html
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_timothy.html
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_leslie.html
The youngest and middle child could be boys which makes me believe this might be a good match. The ages, the time period and area they went missing from makes sense. I also think they look a bit like the composites. Any thoughts?

When I submitted them to the Doenetwork, they replied that they had been ruled out by DNA.
 
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_julie.html
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_timothy.html
http://www.nampn.org/cases/guthrie_leslie.html
The youngest and middle child could be boys which makes me believe this might be a good match. The ages, the time period and area they went missing from makes sense. I also think they look a bit like the composites. Any thoughts?

Is the sex for the youngest two ambiguous? Or are they fairly certain they are all girls? I know this has been answered before in this thread, but could someone remind me?
 
Just making sure. Because I've been looking for girls for months. :) Made me nervous for a minute there!
 
http://www.fox25boston.com/news/new-...ods-/469143741
From the article/video
O’Toole has worked some of the most notorious cases in recent American history.
She told New England’s Unsolved that the violence signals the killer was likely someone close to the victims, someone who may have deeply hated them. “The purpose was not to injure, not to scare, but to kill. So the intent was to kill these people,” she said

The manner in which they were killed sounds more like blind rage to me, not so much hatred, but I'm no expert.
 
Just making sure. Because I've been looking for girls for months. :) Made me nervous for a minute there!

Before they had the DNA profiles, they were unsure about at least one of the younger children; there are very few sexual differentiators at that age. But the DNA settled the issue. All female.
 
For the child that does not appear to be related....Has Nicole Bryner been ruled out? I have been unable to locate her on NAMUS and been unable to determine if DNA is on file for her. There are a lot of articles and a man has confessed to her murder but the mother maintained until her death she had been abducted. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bryner_nicole.html. The circumstances probably do not allow it to be her, but no body has ever been located.
 
For the child that does not appear to be related....Has Nicole Bryner been ruled out? I have been unable to locate her on NAMUS and been unable to determine if DNA is on file for her. There are a lot of articles and a man has confessed to her murder but the mother maintained until her death she had been abducted. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bryner_nicole.html. The circumstances probably do not allow it to be her, but no body has ever been located.

It couldn't hurt to contact NamUs and ask.
The only problem I see is the limited DNA profile these victims have (according to the AG in last year's press conference). They may not have more than mitochondrial DNA available for testing.If Nicole doesn't have any close living female maternal relatives available to submit DNA, they may not be able to make a comparison. It all depends on what's available for the middle child's DNA. It still couldn't hurt to make an inquiry, IMHO.
 
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