NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 1

[gatetrekker44]

And I know this was something I had posted on Maura's previous thread that was inadvertantly deleted(for those who are new-there were approx 500 posts regarding Maura previously and when an admin tried to "move" the thread, they were lost! And no, it's NOT a conspiracy!).

That there is a possibility-probably remote, but there-that someone connected to LE was involved in Maura's disappearance. Since this area of NH had had LE involvement in a double homicide, the thought had crossed my mind that MAYBE-just maybe, all of the omissions by LE regarding evidence were actually calculated towards the end of making it impossible for any other LE agency(such as the FBI) to build a case against anyone. And CyberLaw, before you get your knickers in a twist-I am basing this on one irrefutable FACT-and that is the FACT that LE returned Maura's personal items to her family-and then requested them BACK five months later!

I am currently studying Forensic Biology-and I can't begin to tell you the possible weath of trace evidence that may have been lost forever because of this action by LE. And this leads to a bigger question-if LE is so sure that Maura voluntarily disappeared-then WHY ask for the items back? My understanding is that is was to do some type of "testing"-but again-if LE TRULY believed Maura was missing by her own choice, what were they "testing" for. Is it possible that they wanted to determine if there was anything incriminating related to one of their own?

Any thoughts on this?


Bring Maura home!

 

[CyberLaw]

And CyberLaw, before you get your knickers in a twist-I am basing this on one irrefutable FACT-and that is the FACT that LE returned Maura's personal items to her family-and then requested them BACK five months later!

Thursday July 1, 2004- Caledonian Record - Gary E. Lindsley.

He said the Major Crimes Unit, and specifically, Sgt. Charles West, has been involved in the Murray disappearance since three days after she disappeared.

Scarinza also said detectives from Troop F and the Major Crimes Unit have been used during the missing person's investigation.

He was emphatic that the items from Murray's car are not only now being looked at.

"The items have already been gone through once," Scarinza said.

When asked whether any of the items, including clothing and books, had been analyzed for forensic evidence in the beginning of the investigation, he said, "You don't just send a bag of stuff down there.".

However, he did say the items in Murray's black 1996 Saturn were inventoried by Haverhill police officers during the first week of the investigation back in February.

In addition to diamond jewelry, books, clothing and some alcohol found in the vehicle after the accident, some items were missing.

"She had a (black) backpack when she left Massachusetts," Scarinza said. "We have not been able to locate the backpack in the car or her (dorm) room. That was the pack she used at school."

Scarinza also said when Murray left the Amherst campus, she had with her a box of wine, and bottles of vodka, Kahluha and Bailey's Irish Cream.

The box of wine, of which most had been spilled, was found in the car. But some of the other bottles were not found.

Because it has been nearly five months since the night Murray disappeared, and because state police believe there is not a lot to look for, Scarinza said it's appropriate to have the items in the car at the time of the accident returned to investigators so they can be held as possible evidence.

"I don't know what we will do with them," he said. "We want to have all the items if we need them. At this point, we are holding them for evidence."

That includes Nicholas Howe's book.

"For instance," Scarinza said, "is there something significant about that book? I don't know."

If there is something highlighted in the book which may help with the investigation, they will have the book readily available.

End.

I am at the Cottage on weekends these days......

It appears that they did not seize the items in the aspect of a criminal case, but in the aspect of a "well if anything further develops, we will have the items in a box on a shelf in the basement if we need to readily access them."

This would be a precaution, a just in case, maybe, could be, will wait and see, someday, one day, type of scene.

Before items are sent for forensic investigation, other evidence of a crime which has been committed has to suport this testing and a criminal case opened.

Since no crime has been committed to date, no evidence of a crime being committed, how then would you do forensic tests on a "voluntarly" missing person items and the question would be why..............

You know CSI: CRIME Scene Investigation.

I don't recall a MAYBE CRIME Scene Investigation.

For me being negative, I seem to be the only person on this site that believes that Maura is safe, sound and alive(like Brandi).

Everyone else takes the negative view that she is a victim of foul play and her body is somewhere.

Guess what, some people are just a little bit higher up in the gene pool to make assumptions, speculatons, conjecture, theory, when there is no fact in evidence to support those claims in reality.

In Law we call that "smoke and mirrors".

You see LE looks at cases from a legal point of view, those pesky things called, evidence and fact. That is what is presented in court.

It applies in life also...........if a person is accused of cheating at school, well that is just a baseless allegation unless there is evidence and facts to back it up.

An allegation without evidence and fact is just an allegation.

Fred Murray would be well served to learn the difference between the two.

He makes a lot of baseless allegation against LE without facts and evidence to back up his claims.

He does not have an investigative or LE background to "second guess" LE.

Neither does anyone to date, on this board.

 

[Rocky]

For me being negative, I seem to be the only person on this site that believes that Maura is safe, sound and alive(like Brandi).

Everyone else takes the negative view that she is a victim of foul play and her body is somewhere.

Guess what, some people are just a little bit higher up in the gene pool to make assumptions, speculatons, conjecture, theory, when there is no fact in evidence to support those claims in reality.

In Law we call that "smoke and mirrors".

You see LE looks at cases from a legal point of view, those pesky things called, evidence and fact. That is what is presented in court.

It applies in life also...........if a person is accused of cheating at school, well that is just a baseless allegation unless there is evidence and facts to back it up.

An allegation without evidence and fact is just an allegation.

Fred Murray would be well served to learn the difference between the two.

He makes a lot of baseless allegation against LE without facts and evidence to back up his claims.

He does not have an investigative or LE background to "second guess" LE.

Neither does anyone to date, on this board.

smiles and holds up a mirror...


I guess that's why this is called a discussion board and not a court of Law


everyone is entitled to their opinion...


even you...


I hope you're right and she does show up some day...

 

[Gabby]

<snip> He does not have an investigative or LE background to "second guess" LE.Neither does anyone to date, on this board

Cyber.... don't be too sure about this....

 

[CyberLaw]

I have not read anywhere that Fred Murray is either a current LE, former LE or anything else.

If he was, then of course his comments, behaviour and conduct would reflect that training and background.

He would be well awae that LE has no "legal" mandate to find his voluntarly missing daughter.

I do recall(correct me if I am wrong)that his occupation is a Nuclear Technician.

At least the family has the comfort of knowing that Maura planned on running away, unlike some runaways that leave no clues that they planned on ditching their family.

The only responsibility that LE has is to determine if a person went missing voluntarly or not. If they did not go missing voluntarly, then LE would investigate further.

Of course this would be classified as "suspicious".

If they did go missing voluntarly, that is when the "investigation" ends.

Why would LE investigate a "crime" when there has been no violation of the law and no crime has been committed.

To spend time, money, resources and "taxpayers" money to "reunite" a voluntarly missing adult with their family because the family "misses" the voluntarly missing adult.

Especially when the voluntarly missing adult has not contacted their family(by choice)for an extended period of time and does not wish to do so.

So LE is surposed to "hunt" them down and tell them to "call home" because their family is worried about them.

That is funny..........

 

[Gabby]

<snip>So LE is surposed to "hunt" them down and tell them to "call home" because their family is worried about them.That is funny..........

Cyber there is nothing even remotely funny about what this family is going through...NOTHING.

 

[gatetrekker44]

There was an individual on the original "Maura" thread who was a RETIRED NH POLICE PERSON-and he stated in no uncertain terms that the investigation into Maura's disappearance was slipshod and botched-and since he worked within this LE system, I wil take his WORD over anything anyone else says UNLESS they are a LE entity. In my post I was speaking strictly from a forensic standpoint-the more items are touched, packaged, touched again, repackaged, and touched yet again means that trace evidence is lost and items are contaminated. And if the Haverhill PD was SO SURE that Muara was missing of her own accord, they would NOT have asked for the items to be sent back!


Bring Maura home!

 

[murraydwyer]

If they did not go missing voluntarly, then LE would investigate further.CL

Since as Gatetrekker indicates, the State Police retrieved Maura's belongings at the end of last June...about a week short of five months later...seems their thinking may have been running in a direction other than runaway and perhaps they may well have been investigating further...seems logical that if they changed their minds about having her possessions...perhaps they were not as sure that she was a runaway as they were initially....Don't think they've been available to talk to the press since then either...talked pretty freely before that....

 

[KatherineQ]

I was thinking of Maura Murray when it was announced that Brandi Stahr was using her real name and social security number. And yet, somehow, the cops aren't "allowed" access to the social security number - I guess until the family attempts to declare their loved one dead and collect insurance.

Have the Murray's had access to Maura's SSN, does anyone know? The Brandi Stahr case was such an eye opener - here she was, using her public name and her public ID, and no one, not even the cops, could access it.

Something needs to change. If only to tell the family members, the SSN is currently being used by the correct holder of that number. Period. That might be enough, and still allow for privacy of the person who wants to run away.

 

[Peabody]

<snip>

So LE is surposed to "hunt" them down and tell them to "call home" because their family is worried about them.

That is funny..........

According to Dictionary.com there are 3 entries for the meaning of "funny"

3 entries found for funny.

1. a. Causing laughter or amusement.
b. Intended or designed to amuse.

2. Strangely or suspiciously odd; curious.

3. Tricky or deceitful


Therefore, when Cyberlaw declared it is "funny" that LE is supposed to hunt down a missing person, my *hinky* meter goes off the scale.

1. Now, we see that "funny" can mean causing laughter or amusement as well as intended or designed to amuse..........aside from CL's opinion, is there anyone who believes that this definition applies to the Murray's expectation for LE to look for their daughter? Please websleuther's let's hear your opinions?!?

2. In light of being strangely or suspiciously odd or curious. Yes, it is my opinion that it is "funny" as to how NH LE has handled this case.

3. And that brings us to the final definition of "funny" which is tricky or deceitful: a very apt description of NH LE's relationship with Fred Murray.

.........strange how one reads of so many cases where LE takes calls or even makes calls to family just to let them know the case has not been forgotten and to assure them they will keep on keeping on. LE speaks of how they feel they are a part of the missing person's family. These cases have no more "evidence" of foul play than Maura's......it is just that someone doing their job is touched by the situation..........I personally am still waiting for the officer in NH that looks at this situation and determines that he/she will not let this case be shelved.

Fred Murray met with the NH Attorney General on the one year anniversay of Maura's missing. In the resulting meeting with NH LE, he was told that NH LE works on Maura's case every day and that they have spent "thousands of hours" on her case......granted there are those of us who doubt this assertion, but Cyberlaw, if NH LE wants the family to think they are working on the case, this should totally refute your claim that they know Maura has run away and they are not at liberty to inform her family that she is well or to advise Maura to ' "call home" because their family is worried about them. '

There is nothing funny about Maura's missing. There is a great deal of mystery and untold sadness.

 

[Peabody]

I was thinking of Maura Murray when it was announced that Brandi Stahr was using her real name and social security number. And yet, somehow, the cops aren't "allowed" access to the social security number - I guess until the family attempts to declare their loved one dead and collect insurance.

Have the Murray's had access to Maura's SSN, does anyone know? The Brandi Stahr case was such an eye opener - here she was, using her public name and her public ID, and no one, not even the cops, could access it.

Something needs to change. If only to tell the family members, the SSN is currently being used by the correct holder of that number. Period. That might be enough, and still allow for privacy of the person who wants to run away.

I don't pretend to know the federal laws that govern social security. But, I do know that a state can have someone declared legally dead: something that a family may find very difficult to do. There are also surely some criteria that would meet requirements for a "search warrant" that would allow SS to release information to LE.

I was told that the Social Security Administration has the responsibility to forward correspondence to the last known address of record *when* any party takes the correspondence to a SS office in a SASE envelope. (envelope has name only - SS provides address and mails)

I also know that the Murray's have contacted SS and did not learn anything that would assist them. However, anyone who receives their Social Security projected benefit statement knows that listed wages run more than a year behind......therefore, IF the projected benefit statement is mailed to Maura's home address NEXT YEAR with no earnings in 2004, the family will know that she is not using her ss #.

 

[knale]

Ok, I'll say how I feel about CL referring to Maura's case and any other as "funny". My thought is, if CL does not wish to help in cases of missing persons then he/she should not post at all. The only thing that I can gleam from any of their post is the intent to hurt and harm this case and any other. It is apparent that this person has never loved a child and had the need to know that they are safe in this ugly world. This person sounds as if they have a personal grudge for Fred Murray and furthermore sound as if they have personal knowledge of Maura's whereabouts. If you do not have first hand knowledge, how can you speak so matter of fact?

As for the social security number, our LE here tells me that they are running Jennfier and Adrianna's numbers. I am being told by others that LE can run the socials and that if they did not on Brandi's then someone was not doing their job, or maybe only done it for so long and then stopped. Our LE have not even mentioned needin a suphonia (?). I hope that they are telling the truth about running my girls socials. Of course, it would not suprise me if they were not. So much of their work has been "shady", to say the least. At this point they are not doing anything at all and have done very little throughout all this time. Our LE definetly botched our case, so it would not surprise me in the least to know that NH had done the same.

I have said it before and I will again, I greatly admire all the loving effort that Fred Murray has given to the search for Maura.

These are simply my opinions!

www.missingwixchildren.homestead.com

 

[KrazyKollector]

Ok, I'll say how I feel about CL referring to Maura's case and any other as "funny". My thought is, if CL does not wish to help in cases of missing persons then he/she should not post at all. The only thing that I can gleam from any of their post is the intent to hurt and harm this case and any other. It is apparent that this person has never loved a child and had the need to know that they are safe in this ugly world. This person sounds as if they have a personal grudge for Fred Murray and furthermore sound as if they have personal knowledge of Maura's whereabouts. If you do not have first hand knowledge, how can you speak so matter of fact?

As for the social security number, our LE here tells me that they are running Jennfier and Adrianna's numbers. I am being told by others that LE can run the socials and that if they did not on Brandi's then someone was not doing their job, or maybe only done it for so long and then stopped. Our LE have not even mentioned needin a suphonia (?). I hope that they are telling the truth about running my girls socials. Of course, it would not suprise me if they were not. So much of their work has been "shady", to say the least. At this point they are not doing anything at all and have done very little throughout all this time. Our LE definetly botched our case, so it would not surprise me in the least to know that NH had done the same.

I have said it before and I will again, I greatly admire all the loving effort that Fred Murray has given to the search for Maura.

These are simply my opinions!

www.missingwixchildren.homestead.com

I am so sorry that the LE has done so badly in their sworn profession. They have let you down and moreso, let Jennifer and Adrianna down. {{HUGS}}

I totally agree with everything you said above. Well done!! :clap: :clap:

I hope that soon, your DDs and DGDs case will be solved.

 

[CyberLaw]

LE did exactly what they are surposed to do, they investigate, along with the FBI and determined that Maura went missing on a voluntarly basis.

I don't know why that is so difficult for some people to understand. What is the learning curve here.?

So how was an investigation slipshod. LE has spent a lot of time, money and resources to determine if a crime has been committed. No crime has to date been committed, so why on earth would LE still be involved.

Does the Brandi case not raise a "red flag" to anyone.

She want out of her way to avoid being found. Everyone thought that she was a "victim" of foul play. She was in hiding. From her "loved" ones.

But she was not a "victim". There was no evidence supporting this conclusion. It was the improper conclusion considering the events to date. LE "wasted" a lot of time, resources and money looking for a "missing" person who was a victim of a crime when she was alive and well.

There is ZERO indication that they are holding Maura's personal items pending a a criminal investigation.

It is just a future percautionary measure. Like carrying a spare tire in your car. One day you might get a flat, then of course the spare would be available. Or you may never get a flat tire, but the spare is there just in case.

Maura took her booze, but left her personal items. That would indicate to me she took what she valued. Brandi took her purse and knapsack. That is all. All these years later, she is just fine thank you. In another state. A long way from home.

What I find "funny" is that people expect LE to be their own personal "missing" persons police. Find my son, find my daughter, I miss them, I want them home, I need peace of mind. I need them in my life. How "dare" they run away from ME. Look what they put ME through.

An adult child "chooses" to be in the life of their parents or not. It is not up to the parents to make this choice for the adult child.

In Texas alone - 70,000 people go missing each year.

Should LE hire another 70,000 - 140,000 more Police Officers to "aid" families in finding their "missing" loved ones.

If the parents don't know where to start looking for their child in the whole of the USA, how the heck do they expect LE to find them.

BTW - my 13 year year old went "missing" last week. The emotional reaction(which was not mine)was that he was kidnapped, a victim of foul play, meet someone on MSN, a predator "got him".

His Father was ready to go door to door in a town of 4-5 million people, call the Military, OPP, RCMP. Canada wide bulletin. OMG the "child is missing", get his picture on the newscasts, print up posters.

Guess what - LE said most likely since the weather is nice, he is 13, he skipped school. Guess what logic prevails - that is exactly what I thought and both LE and I were correct.

He was found exactly where I told LE most likely he would be found.

He was more afraid of my reaction and what kind of "trouble" he is in with me that anyone else.

He was surposed to go to Horseback riding camp. But as a "punishment", he gets to spend two weeks with Grandma.

Grandma is thrilled to have him there, my son is like please God not Grandma, anything but Grandma.

 

[KatherineQ]

CyberLaw - why did you call LE at all, if you knew your son is the kind to run off?

If you knew where he was, why didn't you just go get him youself instead of wasting some cop's time finding your delinquent kid?

 

[Hammerized]

If you knew where he was, why didn't you just go get him youself instead of wasting some cop's time finding your delinquent kid?

The apple falling from the tree theory. Maybe it's genetic. :banghead:

 

[djEnlighten]

Cyber, your redundancy throughout this thread is a testament to your strong belief about missing people – you have a unique view regarding those who vanish and it is substantiated in your unique experiences. You might have a point regarding those who disappear on their own accord but there has to be an expectation, if and when a person chooses to disappear, that they at least allow their loved ones the knowledge that they are alive but are not willing to reappear or be visited. This would save their loved ones and LE a lot of time and energy in the efforts that most often result from a person’s disappearance.

Unfortunately Cyber, in this day and age we cannot err on the side that those who are missing are not in danger – to do this would be unthinkable, almost like not coming to the aid of a pedestrian who has been struck by a vehicle – regardless of whether the pedestrian jumped in front of the vehicle or not.

If a parent believes that their child was met with foul play and thinks that LE has not done enough to find them that is their right as parents, no matter how old their child is and no matter how well LE has followed “the book” in conducting their investigation… because a good parent cares about the safety and well-being of their child, not necessarily because they are looking to control them or are selfish. Who is more selfish, the parent who wants to know their child is all right or the child who feels it is all right to sever ties with their loved ones?

 

[sassy_texasbelle2]

Cyber Law you have more than shown you have no caring for this family so why keep preaching to us. We care...we will continue to care. If this site annoys you so much why keep coming back? I am sure you can find somewhere out there that all your negative talk will be welcome. Then you can trash this family til your heart is content. It is not here that is for sure.:furious:

 

[Grassyknoll2]

This person sounds as if they have a personal grudge for Fred Murray and furthermore sound as if they have personal knowledge of Maura's whereabouts. If you do not have first hand knowledge, how can you speak so matter of fact?

As for the social security number, our LE here tells me that they are running Jennfier and Adrianna's numbers. I am being told by others that LE can run the socials and that if they did not on Brandi's then someone was not doing their job, or maybe only done it for so long and then stopped. Our LE have not even mentioned needin a suphonia (?). I hope that they are telling the truth about running my girls socials. Of course, it would not suprise me if they were not. So much of their work has been "shady", to say the least. At this point they are not doing anything at all and have done very little throughout all this time. Our LE definetly botched our case, so it would not surprise me in the least to know that NH had done the same.

I have said it before and I will again, I greatly admire all the loving effort that Fred Murray has given to the search for Maura.

These are simply my opinions!

www.missingwixchildren.homestead.com

Thanks for sharing that information...I've read so many stories like yours and it is so disturbing. I'm not quite sure when LE decided or for that matter whether they decided that Maura may have disappeared voluntarily (it is true it was a theory, but again, why go to her sisters five or so months later to retrieve her belongings). But the fact remains that the night of the car crash, it appears from the initial news reports that there was a young woman around 20 who had been in a car crash who seemingly disappeared within a very short period of time in 12º degree temperatures...and they don't seem to have done a lot of searching until about 30 or so hours later and dog lost Maura's sent within feet of the accident site on a road that would seem to be used mostly by locals and nobody ever reported picking her up. Now one interesting aspect of this is that almost three months later somebody reported seeing her about five miles away....if the dogs lost her scent near the scene...did she get a ride for only five miles........and then what, get another ride...from what I've read there is not much of anything but state forest beyond that point...yet nobody has come forward to say they gave her a ride after 16 months????????????

 

[knale]

I totally agree, Grassy

After all this time, one would think that someone would have come forward it they gave her a ride. To me the only explanation of the dogs losing her scent is that she got into or was put in another vehicle, seems very unlikely that she "arranged" for someone to pick her up in this remote sight if she had planned to disappear. Just as in my children's case, Jennifer's boyfriend claims that someone picked her up in a white car, yet no one has come forward in almost 15 months to say that they gave her a ride. I don't understand why LE does not do more to locate a missing person right away. I think that it is pure laziness, they would rather believe that a person left on their own than to have to get with it and do the job that our tax dollars pay them to do. Then when they come to their senses, it is too late, tracs are covered, clues are lost, and memories have faded. It's sad and heartbreaking for those of us who are living this as our life. We beg, we plead, we cry, we pray, all to ears that do not hear. I will continue to think and pray for Maura everyday with Jennifer and Adrianna, that they will be brought home to us or that the people who took them from the people they love too soon will be brought to justice.