NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #14

[mlladd]

It’s pretty much impossible to kill yourself via Tylenol PM, not to mention that she left it, along with the alcohol she purchased, in the Saturn after she abandoned it. Suicide becomes increasingly unlikely when you consider that she didn’t have the proper means and no body was ever found.

It is quite easy to kill yourself with Tylenol PM. If enough is ingested, you wouldn't even need to pair it with alcohol. Tylenol in itself will cause acute liver failure with a high enough dose. Diphenhydramine, otherwise known as Benedryl, is the second component of Tylenol PM and is a potent sedative and antihistamine, which if taken in large doses would most certainly cause respiratory depression/arrest.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

It is quite easy to kill yourself with Tylenol PM. If enough is ingested, you wouldn't even need to pair it with alcohol. Tylenol in itself will cause acute liver failure with a high enough dose. Diphenhydramine, otherwise known as Benedryl, is the second component of Tylenol PM and is a potent sedative and antihistamine, which if taken in large doses would most certainly cause respiratory depression/arrest.

Be that as it may, Maura didn't have nearly the requisite amount of the drug to have that effect on her and the point is rather moot when you consider that she left it in the car after the accident.

 

[sony12]

Be that as it may, Maura didn't have nearly the requisite amount of the drug to have that effect on her and the point is rather moot when you consider that she left it in the car after the accident.

You can't say that with any amount of certainty at all.

 

[Ibiz]

It is quite easy to kill yourself with Tylenol PM. If enough is ingested, you wouldn't even need to pair it with alcohol. Tylenol in itself will cause acute liver failure with a high enough dose. Diphenhydramine, otherwise known as Benedryl, is the second component of Tylenol PM and is a potent sedative and antihistamine, which if taken in large doses would most certainly cause respiratory depression/arrest.

Hello,
It is a pleasure to welcome you to the the WS forum.
I hope that you will be able to use the forum to further your knowledge and for the exchange of innovative ideas and as a resource for current developments.

So you think this may have been a suicide mlladd?

 

[Lilyflower]

Be that as it may, Maura didn't have nearly the requisite amount of the drug to have that effect on her and the point is rather moot when you consider that she left it in the car after the accident.

If she did overdose post accident then where’s the body?

A Tylenol OD while possible takes a significant amount of time - likely she’d have to lay down before expiring and given the weather and cold that night...


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[Pettibon Junction]

If she did overdose post accident then where’s the body?

A Tylenol OD while possible takes a significant amount of time - likely she’d have to lay down before expiring and given the weather and cold that night...


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For some reason, there are a LOT of people invested in the idea that Maura couldn't possibly have met with foul play. This stubborn conviction does a disservice to the untold numbers of women who've run afoul of predators and would-be predators, even in the most unlikely of places. Not to get political, but there's a reason #MeToo is a thing, and it's not because there's an epidemic of Tylenol abuse/death by exposure among the fairer sex...

 

[Ibiz]

For some reason, there are a LOT of people invested in the idea that Maura couldn't possibly have met with foul play. This stubborn conviction does a disservice to the untold numbers of women who've run afoul of predators and would-be predators, even in the most unlikely of places. Not to get political, but there's a reason #MeToo is a thing, and it's not because there's an epidemic of Tylenol abuse/death by exposure among the fairer sex...

I don't know if I agree with that. I think people basically look at the circumstances of a situation, and try to post the most logical theory based on the circumstances.

If you read other threads, you may come to this conclusion.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I don't know if I agree with that. I think people basically look at the circumstances of a situation, and try to post the most logical theory based on the circumstances.

If you read other threads, you may come to this conclusion.

With respect, it’s been 14 years. None of the alternate theories have panned out and some of the more popular ones have been all but debunked. Meanwhile, there’s been extensive searches and not even a trace of a body has been recovered. Why’s that? Simple - an act of will. Somebody doesn’t want it recovered and that person doesn’t want it recovered because he killed Maura Murray.

When you remove the backdrop and foreground this case, it becomes remarkably simple: a young woman flees the scene of a DUI on foot, and becomes just another lobe woman jogging in the general direction of a ski resort in the middle of tourist season. There is literally nothing, at that point, to distinguish her from the many women who’ve been picked up and killed under similar circumstances. (Many in NH alone.)

The only questions that remain are how far she got before she met her killer, who that killer was, and, at this late date, where is the secondary crime scene (i.e. the disposal site). That third item is the most crucial but I worry that it’s been too long and even if we do find it, there won’t be much in the way of usable evidence beyond establishing cause of death.


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[Ibiz]

With respect, it’s been 14 years. None of the alternate theories have panned out and some of the more popular ones have been all but debunked. Meanwhile, there’s been extensive searches and not even a trace of a body has been recovered. Why’s that? Simple - an act of will. Somebody doesn’t want it recovered and that person doesn’t want it recovered because he killed Maura Murray.

When you remove the backdrop and foreground this case, it becomes remarkably simple: a young woman flees the scene of a DUI on foot, and becomes just another lobe woman jogging in the general direction of a ski resort in the middle of tourist season. There is literally nothing, at that point, to distinguish her from the many women who’ve been picked up and killed under similar circumstances. (Many in NH alone.)

The only questions that remain are how far she got before she met her killer, who that killer was, and, at this late date, where is the secondary crime scene (i.e. the disposal site). That third item is the most crucial but I worry that it’s been too long and even if we do find it, there won’t be much in the way of usable evidence beyond establishing cause of death.


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I think at this point, all that can be hoped for, would be finding some clothing or belongings. I don't think that her remains would be able to survive after all the years that have past.

 

[sony12]

@Pettibon Junction people are going with what they see as being possible and even likely. And like it or not Maura choosing to end her life is a real possibility. No one can deny that she was going through a lot of problems in her life and in a lot of ways was pretty immature as well. You can't in any way say that there isn't a possibility that she killed herself.

You want to believe she didn't kill herself. Others believe there is a good chance that she did kill herself. You really shouldn't be saying that people who don't believe what you do are stubborn when you don't know what happened any better than anyone else on here.

Also no one is saying that it isn't possible that she met with foul play. Many just believe that there are other scenarios that are just as likely if not more likely.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

@Pettibon Junction people are going with what they see as being possible and even likely. And like it or not Maura choosing to end her life is a real possibility. No one can deny that she was going through a lot of problems in her life and in a lot of ways was pretty immature as well. You can't in any way say that there isn't a possibility that she killed herself.

You want to believe she didn't kill herself. Others believe there is a good chance that she did kill herself. You really shouldn't be saying that people who don't believe what you do are stubborn when you don't know what happened any better than anyone else on here.

Also no one is saying that it isn't possible that she met with foul play. Many just believe that there are other scenarios that are just as likely if not more likely.

Whatever her intent was doesn't matter, as the Haverhill accident changed the plan she had in mind. Personally, my thought was that she was going to drive around the area until she found someplace with a vacancy and probably drink too much and binge and purge for a few days until she felt empty and in control enough to head home and face the music. But it was the middle of ski season, so she wouldn't have had much luck and even if she were acutely suicidal (which I don't believe she was), she clearly didn't put much thought into securing a sure means to take her own life. All of this speaks to a certain youthful naivete. Then the accident happened and she fled the scene, which left her vulnerable to the depredations of whoever came along and caught her vulnerable enough that she was willing to take a ride with the first stranger who seemed halfway normal.

 

[sony12]

Whatever her intent was doesn't matter, as the Haverhill accident changed the plan she had in mind. Personally, my thought was that she was going to drive around the area until she found someplace with a vacancy and probably drink too much and binge and purge for a few days until she felt empty and in control enough to head home and face the music. But it was the middle of ski season, so she wouldn't have had much luck and even if she were acutely suicidal (which I don't believe she was), she clearly didn't put much thought into securing a sure means to take her own life. All of this speaks to a certain youthful naivete. Then the accident happened and she fled the scene, which left her vulnerable to the depredations of whoever came along and caught her vulnerable enough that she was willing to take a ride with the first stranger who seemed halfway normal.

Whatever she was planning to do I am certain she had a clear destination in mind. If she was just out there driving and drinking aimlessly she would be even more messed up than I already think she was. Many think she was headed to the UMass Cabin.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Whatever she was planning to do I am certain she had a clear destination in mind. If she was just out there driving and drinking aimlessly she would be even more messed up than I already think she was. Many think she was headed to the UMass Cabin.

James Renner thinks she was going to the UMass Cabin. That's his speculation and isn't backed up by facts or any personal knowledge of Maura herself. She looked for lodging in Stowe, VT as well as directions to Burlington; her father thinks she settled on Bartlett, and he knew her better than just about anyone. That she didn't book anything is telling. I think she was looking for the first vacancy she could find in that area and since she was fleeing UMass with an excuse firmly in place, I don't think she'd want to risk getting caught at a place owned by the very university she was playing hooky from. As such, the cabin theory makes very little sense to me.

 

[sony12]

James Renner thinks she was going to the UMass Cabin. That's his speculation and isn't backed up by facts or any personal knowledge of Maura herself. She looked for lodging in Stowe, VT as well as directions to Burlington; her father thinks she settled on Bartlett, and he knew her better than just about anyone. That she didn't book anything is telling. I think she was looking for the first vacancy she could find in that area and since she was fleeing UMass with an excuse firmly in place, I don't think she'd want to risk getting caught at a place owned by the very university she was playing hooky from. As such, the cabin theory makes very little sense to me.

That's fine. But if something like that did happen and she was just out there drinking and driving not really knowing where she was going that really makes her sound like a messed up individual who needed help at that particular time. I think if she was infact doing that that makes the suicide argument stronger.

 

[Lavinia]

Whatever her intent was doesn't matter, as the Haverhill accident changed the plan she had in mind. Personally, my thought was that she was going to drive around the area until she found someplace with a vacancy and probably drink too much and binge and purge for a few days until she felt empty and in control enough to head home and face the music. But it was the middle of ski season, so she wouldn't have had much luck and even if she were acutely suicidal (which I don't believe she was), she clearly didn't put much thought into securing a sure means to take her own life. All of this speaks to a certain youthful naivete. Then the accident happened and she fled the scene, which left her vulnerable to the depredations of whoever came along and caught her vulnerable enough that she was willing to take a ride with the first stranger who seemed halfway normal.

100% agree and notice that this is one of the simplest explanations of the whole case. What if she was in Canada under a false identity, what if she is being held like the Cleveland girls were, etc. Unfortunately (maybe fortunately in some cases) I do not think this is the reality at all. I think Maura was gone forever within 24 hours of crashing her car at the hands of an evil person (or people). I still am not totally against the theory that she succumbed to the elements. I've seen the Oxygen series, listened to the podcasts and though I agree it's unlikely, to me, it's the second most plausible theory. Sending hope to her family and friends 14 years ​later.

 

[Not In My Backyard]

I have a question that I often think of with missing persons in the woods cases. If animals scavenge the body and then scatter the bones, how long does it take for the body to "vanish"? I figure if separate animals take bits of the body and bones "here and there" in a densely wooded forest, scattered bones wouldn't be as obvious to a casual observer. Perhaps some bones are under some leaves, some are in a den and more are just buried as time marches on. Does anyone have any information on that? I figure this sort of thing happens to many missing persons cases which is why bodies can be lost forever. however, if it takes over 1 year for animals to completely remove a body from a site, it kind of defeats my theory.

 

[Ozoner]

I have a question that I often think of with missing persons in the woods cases. If animals scavenge the body and then scatter the bones, how long does it take for the body to "vanish"? I figure if separate animals take bits of the body and bones "here and there" in a densely wooded forest, scattered bones wouldn't be as obvious to a casual observer. Perhaps some bones are under some leaves, some are in a den and more are just buried as time marches on. Does anyone have any information on that? I figure this sort of thing happens to many missing persons cases which is why bodies can be lost forever. however, if it takes over 1 year for animals to completely remove a body from a site, it kind of defeats my theory.

A year would be extremely quick. Some skeletal remains have been found after decades; there's a great deal of variation. There have been cases where private planes crashed in the woods and weren't found for decades, so don't underestimate how difficult it can be to locate a human body. Searchers can walk within feet if a body and not see it due to leaf fall, plant growth, etc.

 

[Ibiz]

That's one thing you have to consider. The leaves and pine needles are always falling and burying stuff. I do a lot of mushroom hunting, and rarley ever see animal bones. In a deep secluded forest with lots of wolves or coyotes, bones wont survive long. Deer are always getting hit by cars/trucks, and you see them on the side of the road. No one every picks them up, but they disappear very quickly.

On the other hand. If your in an area where there aren't really any wolves or coyotes around, then I guess bones could last for many years.

So I guess it really depends on the area?

 

[cutter99]

I have a question that I often think of with missing persons in the woods cases. If animals scavenge the body and then scatter the bones, how long does it take for the body to "vanish"? I figure if separate animals take bits of the body and bones "here and there" in a densely wooded forest, scattered bones wouldn't be as obvious to a casual observer. Perhaps some bones are under some leaves, some are in a den and more are just buried as time marches on. Does anyone have any information on that? I figure this sort of thing happens to many missing persons cases which is why bodies can be lost forever. however, if it takes over 1 year for animals to completely remove a body from a site, it kind of defeats my theory.

I think it really depends on things like location, time of year, what type of animals are in the area, etc.

I live in Middle TN, where we have coyotes and black headed buzzards or black vultures. If we lose a cow or calf, the carcass can be picked clean within a week. The bones may disappear slowly, say over the period of months, and I would think that again, it would depend on which scavenger is working the area. I have found bones that are never moved, such as skulls and vertebrae. I am not sure why certain animals or certain skeletal pieces are left alone, but it would be interesting to know why.

David Riemens, who was missing since 2012, was recently found here, in what I understand to be a wooded area that also had a lot of rocks and boulders. From what has been released by LE and the media, positive identification was made through dental records.

I think in Maura’s case this could go a couple different directions. Could she have gone off into the woods to either hide from LE who were on their way to her accident site, either to just avoid LE or to commit suicide, and succumb to the cold weather? Certainly. Could she have gotten further away from the accident scene than anyone ever expected? I believe so. She was a trained distance runner with a military background, who feared was could happen as the result of having two accidents in a short period of time, both potentially involving alcohol.

And let’s not forget her father's response when asked what he thought happened- she was pulling an “Old Squaw”.

 

[Ibiz]

I believe that too. It wasn't very cold, and she could have jogged out of the area, and hitched rides to where ever she was going.