NIV Study Bible - listen carefully/SBTC

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Plenum7, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Plenum7

    Plenum7 New Member

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    There are very few things not already covered in this case and I fully expect this has been found before, but I searched and couldn't find any posts dealing with it.
    I want to see if any of the content of the ransom note can be connected to other texts (inter-textuality).

    This approach was suggested by John Ramsey himself in one of the many pieces of misinformation he has promoted. When questioned by detectives (June 1998) about the $118,000 being the same sum as his bonus, he denied it and instead cited a Biblical parallel.

    Ramsey: “No, I think that was just
    a bit of a coincidence. That was my net bonus after tax. And it wasn't exactly 118; it was 118 and something… I mean, the closest that I've come to have some believability is this theory that Father Rol came up with. There were psalms, which were circled in the Bible, which apparently were fairly vengeful psalms. 118 Psalms was a vengeful psalm in the King James Bible. It talked about victory (INAUDIBLE). I think I've read it a hundred times, I guess, (INAUDIBLE). I guess I would accept that kind of a tie more than I would the bonus amount.”

    He is referring to an observation offered to police by the family clergyman Father Rol Hoverstock, namely that he thought the ransom figure might allude to Psalm 118 which, he said, in the King James has the phrase: "bind the sacrifice with cords…"

    Team Ramsey seized on this and promoted it as a likely source for the ransom figure. It then grew into a rumor that police found Patsy Ramsey’s Bible open to Psalm 118.

    The connection with Psalm 118, though, is spurious on every level. That the ransom sum was $118,000 is not just “a bit of a coincidence” as Ramsey claimed. And Psalm 118 is not especially vengeful or about victory.

    Nor did the police find Patsy’s King James open to that passage, as rumored.

    Rather, (as photographs attest) the police found John Ramsey’s New International Version Study Bible open to Psalms 35-36. The suggestion of Psalm 118 was offered by Father Hoverstock in response to police questions about those psalms.

    So, I have examined those psalms in exactly that edition. (I have a NIV Study edition.) There are several things of interest in Psalm 35.

    1. It IS vengeful and about victory. “May those who plot my ruin be turned back in dismay…” and similar themes.

    2. Thematically and textually it is linked to the Book of Job and specifically to Job 21, which begins with the words (in the NIV): “Listen carefully…” – I note that “Listen carefully” is a NIVism found as the translation in several passages.

    3. The first stanza of Psalm 35 (which is set out in verse in the NIV) has the following words capitalized at the beginning of lines: Contend – Take – Brandish – Say. That is, the letters CTBS. Backwards this gives SBTC. Thus SBTC (co-joined with the word “victory” could conceivable signify Psalm 35.

    That is the ransom note begins and ends with Biblical allusions from the NIV passages found open on John Ramsey’s desk. “Listen carefully…” from Job 21 and “Victory SBTC” from Psalms 35.

    Again, I stress that it was the Ramseys themselves who wanted to connect the ransom note to Psalms. But by a spurious connection from the wrong psalm in the wrong Bible. When we look at the right psalm in the right edition of the Bible we find some interesting connections.

    Most posts on forums etc. are under the mistaken view that the police found Patsy's Bible open to Psalm 118, and so there is wild speculation about psalm 118. Wrong. It was JRs Bible, not a King James but an NIV Study, and it was open to psalm 35. (So I'm entitled to some wild speculation about psalm 35!) I was running my eye up the side column and nearly fell off my chair when I read the letters SBTC in the opening stanza. A long shot, I know, but not nearly as long as John Ramsey's nonsense about psalm 118 being the source of the ransom sum!

    As I say, I would be surprised if this had not been found before.

    Plenum7
     
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  3. Imbackon

    Imbackon New Member

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    I did a quick search and someone named BrotherMoon wrote about the same thing in Topix mid 2009.
    Either way, very interesting.
    I once wrote (many years ago) that if you reverse SBTC, to CTBS and add plus one to each letter, you get DUCT. Thought behind that was it was a hint that JBR's body was left in a duct somewhere, and since no one got the hint, John brought her out and into the cellar when no one was watching him.
     
  4. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    This is really interesting. I missed it before, so want to bump it in case others did.

    JR and PR often compared themselves to Job.

    And if this is just more hinky stuff in the Ramsey case, it's very hinky stuff. Especially considering how religious Patsy was.

    Oh, Brother Moon. I miss him. If only he could behave.... :wink:
     
  5. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    NIV Psalm 35:

    Psalm 35 NIV

    * emailE-mail
    * PrintPrint

    * Psalms 34
    * Psalms 36
    *

    # Audio Flash Player
    # Audio

    Of David.

    1 Contend, O LORD, with those who contend with me;
    fight against those who fight against me.

    2 Take up shield and buckler;
    arise and come to my aid.

    3 Brandish spear and javelin [a]
    against those who pursue me.
    Say to my soul,
    "I am your salvation."

    4 May those who seek my life
    be disgraced and put to shame;
    may those who plot my ruin
    be turned back in dismay.

    5 May they be like chaff before the wind,
    with the angel of the LORD driving them away;

    6 may their path be dark and slippery,
    with the angel of the LORD pursuing them.

    7 Since they hid their net for me without cause
    and without cause dug a pit for me,

    8 may ruin overtake them by surprise—
    may the net they hid entangle them,
    may they fall into the pit, to their ruin.

    9 Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD
    and delight in his salvation.

    10 My whole being will exclaim,
    "Who is like you, O LORD
    You rescue the poor from those too strong for them,
    the poor and needy from those who rob them."

    11 Ruthless witnesses come forward;
    they question me on things I know nothing about.

    12 They repay me evil for good
    and leave my soul forlorn.

    13 Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth
    and humbled myself with fasting.
    When my prayers returned to me unanswered,

    14 I went about mourning
    as though for my friend or brother.
    I bowed my head in grief
    as though weeping for my mother.

    15 But when I stumbled, they gathered in glee;
    attackers gathered against me when I was unaware.
    They slandered me without ceasing.

    16 Like the ungodly they maliciously mocked ;
    they gnashed their teeth at me.

    17 O Lord, how long will you look on?
    Rescue my life from their ravages,
    my precious life from these lions.

    18 I will give you thanks in the great assembly;
    among throngs of people I will praise you.

    19 Let not those gloat over me
    who are my enemies without cause;
    let not those who hate me without reason
    maliciously wink the eye.

    20 They do not speak peaceably,
    but devise false accusations
    against those who live quietly in the land.

    21 They gape at me and say, "Aha! Aha!
    With our own eyes we have seen it."

    22 O LORD, you have seen this; be not silent.
    Do not be far from me, O Lord.

    23 Awake, and rise to my defense!
    Contend for me, my God and Lord.

    24 Vindicate me in your righteousness, O LORD my God;
    do not let them gloat over me.

    25 Do not let them think, "Aha, just what we wanted!"
    or say, "We have swallowed him up."

    26 May all who gloat over my distress
    be put to shame and confusion;
    may all who exalt themselves over me
    be clothed with shame and disgrace.

    27 May those who delight in my vindication
    shout for joy and gladness;
    may they always say, "The LORD be exalted,
    who delights in the well-being of his servant."

    28 My tongue will speak of your righteousness
    and of your praises all day long.
     
  6. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    MIV Psalm 36:

    Psalm 36 NIV

    * emailE-mail
    * PrintPrint

    * Psalm 35
    * Psalm 37
    *

    # Audio Flash Player
    # Audio

    For the director of music. Of David the servant of the LORD.

    1 An oracle is within my heart
    concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: [a]
    There is no fear of God
    before his eyes.

    2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
    too much to detect or hate his sin.

    3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
    he has ceased to be wise and to do good.

    4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
    he commits himself to a sinful course
    and does not reject what is wrong.

    5 Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens,
    your faithfulness to the skies.

    6 Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains,
    your justice like the great deep.
    O LORD, you preserve both man and beast.

    7 How priceless is your unfailing love!
    Both high and low among men
    find refuge in the shadow of your wings.

    8 They feast on the abundance of your house;
    you give them drink from your river of delights.

    9 For with you is the fountain of life;
    in your light we see light.

    10 Continue your love to those who know you,
    your righteousness to the upright in heart.

    11 May the foot of the proud not come against me,
    nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.

    12 See how the evildoers lie fallen—
    thrown down, not able to rise!
     
  7. Plenum7

    Plenum7 New Member

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    Yes, I discovered that the backwards *acrostic* CTBS in Psalm 35 had been noticed before. It jumped out at me. I read that John Ramsey's Bible was opened to Psalms 35/36 - even though he and Paster Rol kept going on about Psalm 118. Psalm 35 seems thematically relevant. And it is exactly in this NIV edition that the acrostic occurs. Moreover - a point I haven't seen made elsewhere - "Listen carefully!" is NIV idiom. And the cross-reference from Psalm 35 goes to it in the Book of Job. So if someone had been reading Psalm 35 they might have cross-referenced to that phrase in Job. Conceivably.
     
  8. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Wrote a response to this yesterday and fat-fingered the keyboard, closing the whole window before it posted. I hate it when that happens!

    Thanks for posting these verses, SunnieRN.

    I just want to say that these Psalms verses are right bitter, to me. It certainly doesn't seem at all what Christ was about, who asked God to forgive his own killers as he was being tortured to death in public.

    But these verses, in hindsight, could have been the Ramseys' mantra. They operated very much as if this was how they viewed LE and anyone who didn't drink the Kool-Aid. Team Ramsey weren't a bit afraid to destory the lives of many other innocent people to point to "an intruder." They even did so in their own book, not to mention Smit's and Tracey's many PR propaganda campaigns.

    So the question I take from these verses, if they truly played a part in the cover up of this murder, and maybe the murder itself, in some way, is what happened before the murder that brought about the events of that night? Did Patsy and/or John really feel entitled to the wrath of god on their "enemies"?

    They certainly were arrogant enough in the aftermath, that's clear to me. Did they really believe they had the power of god on their side in the death of JonBenet? Were they actually of the mind that they were righteous and everyone else was simply to be destroyed, no matter what it took to get that "VICTORY!" over the molestation and murder of JonBenet?

    They certainly never implied they were calling the wrath of god on any intruder/child murderer. John even felt sorry for PERV Karr when he was arrested, and said so publicly, though all the rest of Team Ramsey seemed positive this was the "intruder" who molested and viciously murdered JonBenet. (John has no intuition when it comes to appropriate feelings and behavior, IMO. He needed Patsy to cue him, and she was gone by then.)

    These verses lead me to speculate why the Ramseys would have felt the need to decimate their enemies on that night or before. Was that passage open because Patsy and/or John felt someone was trying to bring something on them? Was it related to the murder at all? Or was it opened after the murder, as inspiration to help them "fight" what was going to come? In that context, did it in fact play into the thoughts and words in the ransom note?

    As I said, this is interesting. Thanks for bringing it up, Plenum 7. It's an area I haven't paid that much attention to, though obviously the Ramseys spent a lot of time giving lip service to god in the years after the murder. The most appalling to me was near the end of her life, Patsy telling an audience JonBenet had "served her purpose" in this life.

    Time to check some of the transcripts, particularly the one of their interview on the Christian Broadcast Network. And their book.
     
  9. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Looking at the hardback copy of DOI, two times Patsy mentions Psalm 57:

    On p. 81, when she states that in a hotel in July of 1993, she opened the Gideon Bible and it fell to this Psalm. She quotes this: "In the shadow of Your wings I will make my refuge, / Until these calamities have passed by."

    The next mention is on p. 91, talking about 1999, after she'd finished her cancer treatments and related surgeries. Patsy had gotten a letter from Howard Early's wife, telling Patsy that Howard had died in November of that year from his cancer. Patsy quote the letter and then says she realized she could help people. Her words are rather incredulous, as she mentions not only that she prayed to god about being "challenged to help people...", but states this: "God, I will do whatever you want me to do...but nobody knows who I am." Then she suddenly realizes this: "People all over the world know who I am because they know JonBenet." How that escaped her in her earlier prayer, I have no idea, since a great deal of what they talk about in the book is how the media has chased them all over the country.

    But then Patsy says something even stranger:

    In this section of her book, Patsy was telling the story of the discovery of her cancer in July 1993, all the way through to when she was told she was "cleared of cancer," in Jan. 1994--the best "date" I can come up with, 13 days after her final surgery following her Dec. 26 check-in at the NIH to determine if the chemo treatments had worked and she had no cancer cells.

    So then she jumps ahead to "In March of 1997, three months after JonBenet died, when I went back to the National Institute of Health for one of my regularly scheduled six-month checkups." She tells the story of a nurse telling her JonBenet was in heaven, etc., a "priceless moment...."

    From that passage, she jumps again to 1999: "And so was the moment [priceless] in late spring of 1999 when I received a letter from Howard Early's wife, whom I had met when I was struggling against cancer." Here she quotes the letter, from which I excerpted above. Then she writes the passage saying "Months earlier those few lines from Psalm 57 had meant so much."

    I'm quite befuddled. It looks to me like it was SIX YEARS EARLIER, in July 1993; or at least that's what she said earlier in retelling the story.

    Now we know that John's Bible in their home was found open to this Psalm the morning JonBenet was murdered. But even that was three years earlier, not "months earlier" as Patsy seems to be referencing. Unless Patsy counted time in months instead of years, as in "70 months earlier...."
    Thoughts?
     
  10. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Okay, I see I got confused between Psalm 35 and 36, vs Patsy's speaking to Psalm 57. I can't get back in my post to edit, sorry about that.

    But that's two critical times in the Ramseys' lives, when tragedy struck, that the Psalms seem to show up. Is there something about the Psalms that spoke to them more than other passages?

    John's Bible in their home was found open to Psalms 35 and 36 on the morning JonBenet was murdered. Patsy referenced Psalm 57, though I'm unable to follow her timeline in her book.

    Gosh, I hope someone can speak to the Psalms and their general religious themes. My Bible quoting is very rusty: 23rd Psalm? The Lord is my shepard?
     
  11. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Pulling from the Ramseys' LE interviews, I found this one from JR's, with Steve Thomas, in '97:

    [typos included]

    Then when asked about the ransom amount in 1998 by Smit and Prosecutor Kane, here's what John said about Psalm 118:

    [Notice how JR changes the topic suddenly in this first excerpt.]

    More from the 1998 interview with JR:

     
  12. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Here are some quotes from Patsy's '98 LE interview regarding the open Bible on John's desk, and she appears to me to be very vague about it. (She wasn't asked about the Bible in her '97 interview.) Then she says she didn't know what John's Bible reading habits were...odd, considering her devotion to her religious beliefs. Finally she throws the "Bible" into a run down of why she thinks the intruder got into the house while they were at the Whites' house, meaning she's clearly aware of the issue of the circled Bible passages which John was being questioned about, as well, and wants to attribute those to an intruder. Remember that this Bible in question was upstairs in their bedroom suite on the third floor, where John had a desk/office area, which Patsy seemed to be as clueless about as much else in her home, by June 1998.

    From Patsy's interview with Haney and DeMuth, June 1998:

    Here, she doesn't remember, seldom went into John's office...BUT she's surprised John might leave the Bible open like that. She was rather obvious in her attempt to distance John and herself from that open Bible, I think.

    And now we see that the Bible is sticking in her mind as evidence of that old intruder, roaming around the house, deciding to open John's Bible to circle some passages, being religious as he was in spite of his murdering ways. But if Patsy didn't know John's reading habits with his Bible, and she seldom went into his upstairs/bedroom office area, why would she think the intruder opened the Bible and circled the passages? It appears to me she's simply trying to point LE away from John and herself, which only makes sense to me if she knew exactly why that Bible was open to those passages.

    She's scared here, so her tone changes; she gets aggressive. She and her PI Armistead accuse Haney of "badgering" her. Words are flying and it's "multiple speakers" and we don't know what exactly the argument is about, except that Patsy and Armistead want Haney to stop his line of questioning.

    Interesting.
     
  13. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Sorry, Plenum, I seem to be highjacking your thread. Anybody else want to weigh in? I have a few more sources I want to check out and post, and then I'll butt out.

    Remember this 1995 Christmas letter from the Ramseys? Yet another VICTORY! lap.

    Though as a little aside: JB was riding around Michigan in parades all summer? I still don't understand why JonBenet was a year behind in her schooling. Did she ride so many floats when she was four she was stunted in some way? I have no idea, but Team Ramsey never talks about this. Yet another Ramsey secret.

    This was never "a few Sunday afternoons," as the Ramseys would have everyone believe once they felt compelled to explain the pageant activities which dominated the life of their murdered child in her last two years.

    VICTORY!? I don't think so. Epic fail.

    So how did Patsy get from "a few Sunday afternoons" of fun pageant activities to a ransom note written to explain her molested and murdered child in her basement?

    Did it involve her cancer and horrendous, disfiguring treatments, and her faith which she clung to with all she had to get through it? Were the Psalms and the Bible passages circled part of it?

    You've got me thinking about some things I haven't looked at that much before.
     
  14. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    KK, this may not help you in your quest for the Ramsey's reliance on the Psalms, but are you aware that King David (the writer of most of the Psalms) lost a son to death? He also had a man killed in order to have his wife. Yet the bible tells us he was a man after God's own heart. For me, this shows that even though we are all human and make mistakes, God is willing to forgive if we are truly contrite, as David obviously was.
    Now, the part about losing his son. One of my favorite sayings of David's concerned this death. He said "I cannot bring him back, but I can go to where he is". I believe one of the reasons the Ramseys relied so heavily on the Psalms is that they felt such a kinship to King David and they knew that if God had forgiven him for his multitude of sins, He would surely forgive them. My thoughts could be the furthest thing from the actual truth, but after careful consideration, I really do believe the R's based a lot of their faith on what the Psalmist wrote. What bothers me is that God knows our hearts and our pretentions of faith are wasted on Him.
     
  15. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    No, I didn't know this story actually, and you've stated it beautifully. Perhaps you have hit upon the key. I was reading the Christian Broadcast Newwork interview with John and Patsy and a lot of things they said would fall right in line with this. I swear, at times they seemed so full of themselves, I thought they slipped up rather significantly. Here are are a few:


    And here, instead of Patsy saying, "I did not kill JonBenet" when Scott asks her a pointed question about it, she says something else entirely, focusing on why god saved her from cancer for some unknown other purpose.

    And they move on to questions about Burke. I find that stunning.

    But speaking to your mention of David, Patsy mentions "David" here in the context of JonBenet's religious lessons:


    Then this classic example of Ramsey patronization:

    Okay, I'll quit hogging the thread now. Thanks for the insight. It's got my wheels turning.
     
  16. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    See,this is exactly what I don't like.Who knows how many psychos interpret all this religious stuff the way they like it and then act upon it.

    PATSY: Our God does not work that way. I believe that our God sees things that we don't see and understands things that we do not understand. What man has meant for evil, He will use the good.

    Imagine how an unstable person interprets THIS!!I can do whatever bad things I like,God will find something good in it!
     
  17. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I think PR started with pushing JB into the pageant thing because she thought she will die and wanted to leave something behind,this was a tradition in her family.It must be tough,you prepare yourself for the worst and then things suddenly change,so do your plans,must be confusing.I think she compared JB a lot with herself and that's why she said,she's better now and will not have to know what cancer is.Same re wearing the same clothes.But JB didn't had her own strong personality.
    I know this from personal experience.When you show how much you DON'T wanna be like one of your parents,that parent doesn't like it.Especially if that parents thinks he's the best and no one is like him/her and he/she's the role model for everyone.
     
  18. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Does this make any sense to you?

    PATSY: Perhaps when he has a family of his own or when he has a child of his own or when he is able to put together what could have happened. Why was he not taken and she was? All of those questions.
     
  19. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    no,no,no,we didn't use the psychic in our spin

    JOHN: Our investigators control the web site. They put that picture on there. We did not contact a psychic as has been reported. The sketch that appeared on the web site that our investigators use was provided by Dorthy Allison on a television program a year or so ago. Our objective is to keep this alive in the public's mind, in hopes that the one lead that we are waiting for will come through.

    SCOTT: So you allowed it to be used?

    JOHN: We don't control the web site. The information that was put on there was put on there by our investigators, what they think is appropriate.

    SCOTT: The reason why I raise the question because you claim to be Christians and you know, or I hope you know or have been taught, biblically, God doesn't look with whole lot of kindness on psychics or their practices.

    PATSY & JOHN: Right. I know.

    SCOTT: It's considered to be witchcraft ...

    PATSY: Demonic.
     
  20. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    JR:This is not going to come now from clever detective work, it is going to come from the public.


    -----

    This is what I hate,between 10 lines of religious talk they drop one of these lines written by their lawyer.
     
  21. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    JOHN: But if not in our lifetime, ultimately that creature would have to stand before the God of the universe and be accountable. That is the only justice that really counts. And we take comfort in that.

    End of story.Ain't that cute.
    They even found a religious excuse as to why they aren't really looking for the killer.
     

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