NM - French tourists dead, child rescued at White Sands

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I can't believe you all are blaming the victims in this tragedy. Clearly the Park Service is at fault for allowing people to hike in unsafe conditions. When swimming conditions are unsafe @ the national lakeshore people are kept out of the water. These hikers obviously did not see the danger & it was the authorities responsibility to protect them. I see lawsuit.
 
bwt42 said:
I can't believe you all are blaming the victims in this tragedy. Clearly the Park Service is at fault for allowing people to hike in unsafe conditions. When swimming conditions are unsafe @ the national lakeshore people are kept out of the water. These hikers obviously did not see the danger & it was the authorities responsibility to protect them. I see lawsuit.
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How do you not allow adults to do something they want to do? What exactly is "unsafe" conditions here? Hot weather? Presumably it's always hot there during the day.
 
I think that people from milder climates in smaller countries cannot comprehend the extreme cold and heat we have here in our big country. And if the folks were the "we will figure this out on our own" type, they way underestimated heat stroke, dehydration. Sad tragedy. I don't believe France often has this hot of weather and there are no deserts there.
 
wendybtn said:
I think that people from milder climates in smaller countries cannot comprehend the extreme cold and heat we have here in our big country. And if the folks were the "we will figure this out on our own" type, they way underestimated heat stroke, dehydration. Sad tragedy. I don't believe France often has this hot of weather and there are no deserts there.
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I also don't think it ever gets as hot in France. Doesn't look like these people were acclimated to such heat.
 
jjenny said:
How do you not allow adults to do something they want to do? What exactly is "unsafe" conditions here? Hot weather? Presumably it's always hot there during the day.
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Adults are not allowed in the water when conditions are unsafe. Why not hikers when the conditions are unsafe.
 
bwt42 said:
Adults are not allowed in the water when conditions are unsafe. Why not hikers when the conditions are unsafe.
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From earlier post: "When swimming conditions are unsafe @ the national lakeshore people are kept out of the water."
Not sure what lakeshore is ref'ed above, but seems dangerous conditions, gale forces impact people more or less equally, imo,
so everyone is kept out of the water.

In White Sands, ppl prepared w sufficient water can better withstand heat, judge their body reactions, etc; ppl w/out suff water cannot, imo.

Per linked MSM source (sorry forgot which), the three had two 20 oz water bottles, or 40 oz total, not enough for even one person.

http://www.nps.gov/whsa/planyourvisit/alkali-flat-trail.htm rec's 2 qts. or 64 oz/person for hike, and
http://www.nps.gov/whsa/planyourvisit/backpacking.htm rec's 1 gallon, 128 oz/person per day in hiking or camping.
http://www.nps.gov/whsa/planyourvisit/safety.htm. ditto re ^ water rec.
Water is avail at visitors center.
Warning signs at entrance.
Pamphlets & website info avail in French.

ETA:
Should park service just down the site and exclude everyone, because some ppl do not comply w safety recommendations?
What should they do about well prepared campers already in the backcountry sites?
The ^ safety page also warns of winter dangers.

Not sure what steps, in addition to warnings, are appropriate, short of shutting down the facility, which does not seem like a good idea. IDK.
 
Just to clear up a few things. The French Tourists died hiking the Alkali Flats trail. A remarkable hike that crosses the center of the dunes in White Sands National Monument. This photo I took shows what it is like a couple of miles from the trail head. The trail is marked by a series of metal posts in the dunes. Lose track of the posts and you will have a hard time finding your way back. Note the three people in the distance for scale. There is no shade or water available anywhere on this route. It is not a hike to be taken lightly even in cool weather.

The trail head is just a parking area and a sign that gives ample warning of the dangers of this hike. It isn't staffed by rangers.

ETA: If you plan on hiking in any National Park or Monument, stop at the visitor's center first. They will help you pick a trail that is within your ability and advise you on what to expect.
 
bwt42 said:
Adults are not allowed in the water when conditions are unsafe. Why not hikers when the conditions are unsafe.
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There was nothing different in conditions that day as opposed to any other summer day.
 
bwt42 said:
Adults are not allowed in the water when conditions are unsafe. Why not hikers when the conditions are unsafe.
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For a non-swimmer the water is always unsafe though it's fine for others. Same with hiking in the desert. It might not be the most friendly conditions for hiking but for people who are trained, experienced, and prepared it's fine.
 
Footwarrior said:
Just to clear up a few things. The French Tourists died hiking the Alkali Flats trail. A remarkable hike that crosses the center of the dunes in White Sands National Monument. This photo I took shows what it is like a couple of miles from the trail head. The trail is marked by a series of metal posts in the dunes. Lose track of the posts and you will have a hard time finding your way back. Note the three people in the distance for scale. There is no shade or water available anywhere on this route. It is not a hike to be taken lightly even in cool weather.

The trail head is just a parking area and a sign that gives ample warning of the dangers of this hike. It isn't staffed by rangers.

ETA: If you plan on hiking in any National Park or Monument, stop at the visitor's center first. They will help you pick a trail that is within your ability and advise you on what to expect.
Click to expand...

Yes! Always do this. They also have tons of insider information, help identifying plant and wildlife, and advice and ways to make your trip more enjoyable.
 
Footwarrior said:
Just to clear up a few things. The French Tourists died hiking the Alkali Flats trail. A remarkable hike that crosses the center of the dunes in White Sands National Monument. This photo I took shows what it is like a couple of miles from the trail head. The trail is marked by a series of metal posts in the dunes. Lose track of the posts and you will have a hard time finding your way back. Note the three people in the distance for scale. There is no shade or water available anywhere on this route. It is not a hike to be taken lightly even in cool weather.

The trail head is just a parking area and a sign that gives ample warning of the dangers of this hike. It isn't staffed by rangers.

ETA: If you plan on hiking in any National Park or Monument, stop at the visitor's center first. They will help you pick a trail that is within your ability and advise you on what to expect.
Click to expand...

^Good advice.

They chose longest, most strenuous trail, chose the hottest time of day, and lacked sufficient water,
despite multiple written warnings about all three points.
Most likely, ime, entry from highway was staffed (to collect fee) and likely verbal cautions were given too.

What can park service do, short of shutting down the facility? IDK.

______________________________________________________
from http://www.nps.gov/whsa/index.htm
"Download our Hiking brochure or click the links below for a description of the trails:

  • The Alkali Flats Trail"

    "Length: 5 miles (8 km) round-trip Average Completion Time: 3 hours Difficulty: Strenuous"

 
Footwarrior said:
Just to clear up a few things. The French Tourists died hiking the Alkali Flats trail. A remarkable hike that crosses the center of the dunes in White Sands National Monument. This photo I took shows what it is like a couple of miles from the trail head. The trail is marked by a series of metal posts in the dunes. Lose track of the posts and you will have a hard time finding your way back. Note the three people in the distance for scale. There is no shade or water available anywhere on this route. It is not a hike to be taken lightly even in cool weather.

The trail head is just a parking area and a sign that gives ample warning of the dangers of this hike. It isn't staffed by rangers.

ETA: If you plan on hiking in any National Park or Monument, stop at the visitor's center first. They will help you pick a trail that is within your ability and advise you on what to expect.
Click to expand...

Footwarrior thanks for sharing the photo, what a stunningly beautiful area.
 
KaaBoom said:
ZOMG, why would anyone go hiking in a place like this in 100 degree heat?:eek:
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Used to be that the Europeans were practically the only tourists to go to Death Valley during the summer until four Germans disappeared there in July 1996 (two were children), remains were found in 2009. Came to a halt after that, don't know how it is now. A guide told us that the higher the temperatures, the happier foreign tourists were, so they could tell the folks back home they had beat their friend's record at DV heat endurance. Crazy.

http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/...nt-for-the-death-valley-germans/introduction/
 
bwt42 said:
I can't believe you all are blaming the victims in this tragedy. Clearly the Park Service is at fault for allowing people to hike in unsafe conditions. When swimming conditions are unsafe @ the national lakeshore people are kept out of the water. These hikers obviously did not see the danger & it was the authorities responsibility to protect them. I see lawsuit.
Click to expand...

I tried to find a picture of the trailhead to see if there are any warnings before starting to hike, but unfortunately could not find one. I remember seeing signs at the Grand Canyon to take plenty of water before starting any trails.

http://www.abqjournal.com/624227/news/french-couple-dead-after-hike-in-new-mexico-child-rescued.html

The Alkali Flat Trail takes hikers on “a five-mile loop that looks benign” but is strenuous, White Sands Superintendent Marie Sauter said. “It’s up down, up down.”

A 23-year-old Iowa woman died on the same trail in June 2011 after experiencing signs of distress in the heat. In 2002, a 29-year-old Japanese businessman disappeared in the dunes in early September and was found dead of heat exposure weeks later.

The White Sands website has safety information posted in English and six other languages, including French. Sauter said printed materials in French are also available at the monument’s visitor center.
 
wfgodot said:
The couple planned an entire itinerary for a U.S. visit, then took so little water on a hike which began in stifling temperatures? Odd.
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Five weeks, and several French newspapers said the father had been to White Sands before.
 
KaaBoom said:
ZOMG, why would anyone go hiking in a place like this in 100 degree heat?:eek:

DIhE2Hj.jpg
Click to expand...

It's not just there, why would anyone go hiking in 100 degree heat if they didn't have to??? I've been to White Sands when I was a kid, my dad was working there. I still have a little pink stuffed elephant named Pinky Whitey Whizmer ( for White Sands Missile Range). It's a desert, but the sand is so pure white, it looks like snow!
 
bwt42 said:
I can't believe you all are blaming the victims in this tragedy. Clearly the Park Service is at fault for allowing people to hike in unsafe conditions. When swimming conditions are unsafe @ the national lakeshore people are kept out of the water. These hikers obviously did not see the danger & it was the authorities responsibility to protect them. I see lawsuit.
Click to expand...
You can't regulate stupidity, survival of the fittest. What was the park service supposed to do??? They probably ignored post signs.
 
I can't imagine thinking they could do this hike, for pleasure. It's one thing if your car breaks down and you are doing the best you can to survive and so you attempt 5 miles of this on foot.

I guess the answer is as everyone has said - they don't understand exercising in dry heat with no water. It's unforgiving. A lot of people who are unfamiliar with New Mexico or West Texas go out there, and especially with small children who dehydrate in a flash, they get themselves into serious danger before they know it. It's a beautiful, beautiful place but I'd be afraid to even go out there without a 3 vehicle caravan, in case one of your vehicles breaks down and you are left stranded. No room for error.
 
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