NV NV - Wellington, WhtMale 574UMNV, 35-50, off Sand Canyon Road, Mar'92 - #1

[Steleheart]

I was rereading the NamUs site, and noticed that they mentioned "T-shirt present on remains around neck and right arm." Also noticed a 2nd photo, showing a long string coming off one part:



So, I'm wondering--if the long string on the rt side of the photo (looks like piece of fabric cut on the bias; it's rolled)--if that is a piece of the neck part, then it would appear that the bird is facing downward, away from the sun. The tail feathers are the closest to the neckline of the shirt. So that would be different than the typical Native American design which had birds flying upward, toward the sun.

For what that's worth.

Now that you mention the cut, I am not a sewing dude, but when I look at the lower part where it is rolled, and the extended longer part to the lower right, I see at least 3 more inches of fabric. When we look at our gloved fingers holding it open at top and bottom, both edges want to roll back against my fingers like a drawing that is open on the board. So regarding the cut, as a bias cut, how does that rolling effect orient the picture on a section of cotton T-shirt with regard to the weave or cut? Is the image definitely horizontal or would it be oriented at an angle? I have no idea if I am explaining myself properly. I do recall a post from our LE members that it was thought the image was toward the upper part of the shirt. But is it back or front? That might give some clue to it's origin.

Incidentally the upper right part still looks like Birch Bark to me. The middle section moving left looks like a wing folded back while the bottom squared off section looks like a tail with the right feathers not yet folded in. So a hawk in motion just landing is my impression, perhaps coming in to scout the woods. I would love to know from someone experienced in Photo Shop if it is possible to restore the coloring in this photo.

I need to ask my wife.

:cow:

 

[Miss Muffet]

Also just tossing ideas out ... I had the missing person Wayne Hickman added to the list ... He was "pigeon toed" per some descriptions I read about him ... What determined the shoes being too small, the wear and stretching of them? Could someone pigeon toed have shoes that show stretch or appear too small??

IMO, the detective meant they believe the shoes are too small to have been the victim's shoes, not that they believed the victim was walking around wearing shoes that were too small for him.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Incidentally the upper right part still looks like Birch Bark to me.

Where are you seeing the birth bark in the upper right part?

 

[Steleheart]

I could be wrong but I am decidedly lazy, LOL
If I Recall Correctly they were Levi's 501.

When I come back I will look back for mmarty's post on that because I am sure he is off lunch by now and went back to his actual job. BTW I am grateful and respectful for these 2 detectives because it seems to me they are attacking this cold case in their, er, "free time".

:cow:

I'm lazy too. I'm not feeling well enough to look for the detective's post to verify right now.

But I'm certain are Levi's. I don't remember the number though.

Well I hope your flu bug is better soon

 

[Steleheart]

Where are you seeing the birth bark in the upper right part?

At the top right where the right finger is holding it, the light colored section to the right of the feathers with short thin black lines and a heavy jagged line across the bottom, above the orange field.

JMO

 

[wenwe4]

I could be wrong but I am decidedly lazy, LOL
If I Recall Correctly they were Levi's 501.

When I come back I will look back for mmarty's post on that because I am sure he is off lunch by now and went back to his actual job. BTW I am grateful and respectful for these 2 detectives because it seems to me they are attacking this cold case in their, er, "free time".

:cow:

I'm lazy too. I'm not feeling well enough to look for the detective's post to verify right now.

But I'm certain are Levi's. I don't remember the number though.

In an effort to clarify some of the facts and timeline of this case...



A pair of Levi Strauss 517 pants in relatively good condition was found inside of a moving blanket that was covered in white paint. The moving blanket and pants were found nearby. The pants are 32W by 36L. Men’s brief-type underwear were found nearby as well as a black Heavenly Lake Tahoe hat. The clothing was scattered over a broad area.

Levi's 517 - Men's stretch bootcut jeans style made since 1969. (s"tretch component was probably added later)

"Levi's® 517® Boot Cut Jeans - Rigid, Rinsed, Stonewashed and more

www.langstons.com/levis-517-boot-cut-jeans.html

Levi's® 517® Boot Cut jeans have a slim fit and wider leg opening to fit over your favorite pair of boots, while still looking great with a pair of athletic sho."



Respectfully snipped and bolded by me - LEO has confirmed the pants were not worn or frayed at the bottom of the pantlegs indicating they were not too long for this person.

*Note - timeline post #42 & #47 are listed in the tags if you need to refer back.

 

[Steleheart]

PoirotryInMotion,

I am sorry I lost what post I was referring to but I wanted to add that your guy is 6'4 and I imagine under 170. I wore those sizes but I was never over 6'2' depending which leg I stand on, haha But I only wore Levi's 32w- 34 leg. Way back when, 36 was possible at the Sear's Big and Tall but then the waist goes way up as they seem to favor the 'big' part so it seems to me that these jeans are not that easy to find?

Within the last 10 years I have gone upside down @ 34w - 32leg. (And decidedly greater than 160 lbs) (ok maybe 36-32 lately)

Even if this man is nearer the 50 year age range my feeling is that he is skinny, perhaps sickly or not well nourished, missing 8 teeth with one root canal which strikes me as something perhaps done in a shelter at some time.,,,

Detectives, do we know, if the forensic anthropologist determined any age related degenerative diseases in his joints, vertebra, leg bones or etc.? I didn't see any medical notes on NAMUS unless it was updated and I missed it.

Sadly I just doubt that there is any funding to do that kind of analysis without waiting forever. :waiting:

:cow:

 

[LaLaw2000]

Also just tossing ideas out ... I had the missing person Wayne Hickman added to the list ... He was "pigeon toed" per some descriptions I read about him ... What determined the shoes being too small, the wear and stretching of them? Could someone pigeon toed have shoes that show stretch or appear too small?? Maybe not though, he was last seen wearing size 10 shoes ... https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/19312/0

I have been fascinated by what wear patterns on the inside of shoes and the bottoms of shoes can tell forensics. You stated Wayne Hickman was pigeon toed. Wouldn't that cause a particular wear pattern on shoes? The detective (can't remember which one) stated that the shoes had been repaired in an unusual way, IIRC. This fascinates me and I would like to see a pic of the shoes.

 

[Steleheart]

Rotating the bird image right 90 degrees this is what I see - A hawk flying past a birch with the setting sun behind.



I have no idea how the mage was oriented on the subject so JMO?

ETA; Flying Upward

 

[Miss Muffet]

I ruled out vintage Tony Hawk logo. His clothing line didn't start until the late 90s.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Rotating the bird image right 90 degrees this is what I see - A hawk flying past a birch with the setting sun behind.

I have no idea how the mage was oriented on the subject so JMO?

ETA; Flying Upward

I see what you're seeing. That really is odd, isn't it?

 

[MrsTigglesworth]

Now that you mention the cut, I am not a sewing dude, but when I look at the lower part where it is rolled, and the extended longer part to the lower right, I see at least 3 more inches of fabric. When we look at our gloved fingers holding it open at top and bottom, both edges want to roll back against my fingers like a drawing that is open on the board. So regarding the cut, as a bias cut, how does that rolling effect orient the picture on a section of cotton T-shirt with regard to the weave or cut? Is the image definitely horizontal or would it be oriented at an angle? I have no idea if I am explaining myself properly. I do recall a post from our LE members that it was thought the image was toward the upper part of the shirt. But is it back or front? That might give some clue to it's origin.

Incidentally the upper right part still looks like Birch Bark to me. The middle section moving left looks like a wing folded back while the bottom squared off section looks like a tail with the right feathers not yet folded in. So a hawk in motion just landing is my impression, perhaps coming in to scout the woods. I would love to know from someone experienced in Photo Shop if it is possible to restore the coloring in this photo.

I need to ask my wife.

:cow:

Now that you mentioned that and I zoomed in on the weave, there is a definite vertical pattern. That is typical, so IMO, I believe the photo was taken in direct relation to the placement it would have been in. The other option would be to flip it upside down. I don't think, based on the weave that the orientation would rotate. Thanks for the new look at this dang shirt!
Moo

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Does anyone have the historical weather info? Was it warm enough to be hiking?

Since we don't know when he was murdered, we can't apply specific weather conditions to the case.

 

[Steleheart]

Thanks! (also for contacting the tee shirt dealer.) I don't think I have posted on this thread before, but have been following along. I also have many of my target ads featuring bird shirts I think you are correct that almost all of them feature the bird flying upward! I am not sure if that part you mentioned would be the neck, though... Maybe! Most tee shirt knit fabric will roll on the edges any way it is cut/torn, but the neck is a binding that is usually thicker and ribbed. I don't think it would roll up like the rest of the shirt. I'm no expert on this, but have done my fair share of redesigning vintage tees.

Happy to be here with you guys and the awesome detectives! Keep up the great work

Thank you! So the roll has no relation to the orientation of the image...

I wonder, as the shirt was around the neck and arm, was there a neck binding? Was it removed to get better pictures of the image?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Levi's 517 - Men's stretch bootcut jeans style made since 1969. (s"tretch component was probably added later)

"Levi's® 517® Boot Cut Jeans - Rigid, Rinsed, Stonewashed and more

www.langstons.com/levis-517-boot-cut-jeans.html

Levi's® 517® Boot Cut jeans have a slim fit and wider leg opening to fit over your favorite pair of boots, while still looking great with a pair of athletic sho."



Respectfully snipped and bolded by me - LEO has confirmed the pants were not worn or frayed at the bottom of the pantlegs indicating they were not too long for this person.

*Note - timeline post #42 & #47 are listed in the tags if you need to refer back.

Awesome, thanks for looking this up, wenwe4. I, too, am feelng lazy today. It's Friday, hubby took off work, and we're planting flowers. Coming in to get out of the sun. Lots of good posts, here.

Steleheart, your posts made me laugh--my hub's measurements have inverted a bit, too--but hey, my parts aren't quite what (where?) they used to be, either. ;D

Not sure which direction the t-shirt is supposed to be facing; maybe the detective can clue us in as to which part was the neck part?

Mrs. Tigglesworth - thanks for your input, (and welcome to the thread.) *Good point about the neck binding.

LaLaw2000 - yes, pigeon-toed people put wear on shoes differently than flat-footed, for example. I was looking for a site that had some clear diagrams for that, but didn't really find that, though I read up on it. Apparently pigeon-toed people can tend to put wear on the outside of their soles b/c they often have high arches which can contribute to the problem. Like me (though my legs were casted as infant to correct the pigeon-toeing).

Miss Muffet - hope you're feeling better. Also...IIRC, I believe the detective said the shoes 'appeared as though they'd been too small for the owner' - not necessarily too small for our victim (though they may be - we haven't been told the size). I'll see if I can find that and repost it here.

 

[Steleheart]

Since we don't know when he was murdered, we can't apply specific weather conditions to the case.

Wasn't the estimate for TOD about 4 months?

 

[Miss Muffet]

Since we don't know when he was murdered, we can't apply specific weather conditions to the case.

Good point!

I wonder, as the shirt was around the neck and arm, was there a neck binding? Was it removed to get better pictures of the image?

Portions of the shirt may have been removed by the forensics lab.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I was wrong about moving blanks/quilt. I'd just never seen one that was more than a solid color. Maybe I am not as knowledgeable as I thought I was.

*Oh, and SS, there are casino workers/executives who go from casino town to casino town for better opportunities. I am talking about Pit Bosses, Dealers, and so forth who earn the higher salaries. They do rent apartments and houses. There is usually a big turnover in rental property in those areas and the property interiors are painted at the end of each lease term. You find people from all over the U.S. in casino towns.

Thanks for reminding me about the casino workers living in and around the Reno/Sparks area. The median income for Sparks, NV is around 50k. This tells me the majority of people are probably blue-collar workers and lower level casino workers would fit that description.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Miss Muffet - hope you're feeling better. Also...IIRC, I believe the detective said the shoes 'appeared as though they'd been too small for the owner' - not necessarily too small for our victim (though they may be - we haven't been told the size). I'll see if I can find that and repost it here.

Thanks. Much better than two days ago but still dragging.

I believe they feel the shoes may be unrelated, and they want us to focus our energy on things that are more likely to be related----like the hat and the tee-shirt since they were found closer to the victim.

Here's the post about the shoes:

Concerning the shoes, keep in mind they were found a half mile away. They may or may not have anything to do with the case. I can tell you from personal experience that although the body was found in a rather remote area, the road is somewhat well traveled. In fact, my partner and I revisited the scene not too long ago and in the span of about 45 minutes, we saw a vehicle on the road. In other words, it's not uncommon (unfortunately) to find trash in remote areas such as this. We are not opposed to posting pics of the shoes, but we are having lab work done first which will hopefully give us a better idea of whether or not they are connected to the victim.

 

[Steleheart]

Awesome, thanks for looking this up, wenwe4. I, too, am feelng lazy today. It's Friday, hubby took off work, and we're planting flowers. Coming in to get out of the sun. Lots of good posts, here.

Steleheart, your posts made me laugh--my hub's measurements have inverted a bit, too--but hey, my parts aren't quite what (where?) they used to be, either. ;D

Not sure which direction the t-shirt is supposed to be facing; maybe the detective can clue us in as to which part was the neck part?

Mrs. Tigglesworth - thanks for your input, (and welcome to the thread.)

LaLaw2000 - yes, pigeon-toed people put wear on shoes differently than flat-footed, for example. I was looking for a site that had some clear diagrams for that, but didn't really find that, though I read up on it. Apparently pigeon-toed people can tend to put wear on the outside of their soles b/c they often have high arches which can contribute to the problem. Like me (though my legs were casted as infant to correct the pigeon-toeing).

Miss Muffet - hope you're feeling better. Also...IIRC, I believe the detective said the shoes 'appeared as though they'd been too small for the owner' - not necessarily too small for our victim (though they may be - we haven't been told the size). I'll see if I can find that and repost it here.

I am probably going to go buy longer pants as I will likely be pulling them up higher, "I must Say" :floorlaugh:

Wait. That's a thought because we may have an idea how tall he is but not how high he wore his pants.

:cow: