NY - Karina Vetrano, 30, found murdered, Queens, 2 Aug 2016 #1

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Just read another disturbing thing. "Police sources also said one of her hands was clutching grass, indicating she may have been dragged. Police said she was found 15 feet off the path." This according to CBS news http://www.cbsnews.com/news/karina-vetrano-put-up-ferocious-fight-murder-nypd-police/ In my opinion, because of the sheer brutality I concur that maybe there was more than one perp involved. :(

The more I'm thinking about the "more than one" perp theory, the more it is making sense. Mob mentality can overtake a group quickly, with violence escalating beyond what an individual might do. And, if all this happened quickly, which I think it did, a group would make faster work.

She left at 5pm and was reported missing at 7pm. Does anyone recall when she was spotted on video? I'm thinking it was 5:20pm, but can check upthread for that.

A group roaming around in the park also makes more sense than an individual "lying in wait" for the opportunity on a isolated path. But a group might be hanging out there together and then attacked as a group or duo.

jmopinion....just speculating
 
Multiple people accounts for "rapeX2"?

I don't know.

I feel like it's just one person. Someone would notice a group of people easier.


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Anyone find it odd that the mother is absent from the family photos?
She seemed to have a close relationship with her dad but what about mom? Did she go to Nice with her parents or her then boyfriend?
I read her blogs online she touches on dark topics.
 
yes, but for how long I wonder.
I thought it is odd no mentions are made of her, nor no family photos of her shown. I wonder why?
Just a curious thought. I thought at first her mom had already died. :(
 
Histrangeworld. I understand where you're coming from and the points you made.But let me counter, just for the sake of some interesting discussion if nothingelse.

IMO--Risk minimization is usually considered PC to talk about in the examples you provided (work, recreation, parenting...) because those are things we choose that, while having inherent risks, do not cause harm to us because of the criminal actions of others. The harms received from those examples would not make us victims. But I see what your gettig at--perhaps using seatbelts or drug use as an example might be more analogous? For example--my dad taught me early on in regards to drivig that you have to watch out for other drivers. Be aware, look twice, always be on the lookout for impaired drivers and stay a safe distance from them, don't enrage other drivers, etc...
And drug use--maybe this is less useful--but harm reduction is a big thing here with the heroin epidemic. Needle exchanges, places to use safely. Id say that applies less just because the very act you're engaging in is illegal and therefore the risk is in the behavior and not a result of others actions. Sorry if I'm rambling incoherently--I'm only half way through my first cup of coffee!

Anyway. I don't think it is so much that harm reduction/risk minimization campaigns are a bad thing. But they don't address the perpetrator's actions as what needs to change. I think it has to do with bigger, more systemic issues related to patriarchy and women being to blame for, well, everything. Even though I know most people don't believe it's a woman's fault if she'sraped--you often hear things regarding her dress, where she was at what time,why didn't she have someone to protect her? I think people just get fed up with others trying to explain the unexplainable by looking at what the victim did wrong rather than what the perp and society has done wrong. We put the burden of not "gettig ourselves raped" on the woman, as opposed to addressing the individual and cultural aspects that make rape so prevalent.

Just for a thought experiment--
Do we ask similar questions of a well-dressed man who is robbed/mugged? Is the burden on him to not wear his fancy watch in the wrong area after midnight?
Personally, I practice risk reduction all the time. And I don't think anyone would argue against practically doing so. I think the issue is more sociological--we shouldn't HAVE to. But we do because we are all aware of the world in which we live.

Not sure if you're following the Sierra Joughin case out of N Ohio, but she was a 20 year old female out riding her bike with her boyfriend along a rural country road well before dark when she was abducted and murdered by a man that lived just down the road from her. It's one thing to recommend not running down an isolated bike path or not to be walking alone at night in dangerous areas--but it's to the point that a woman can't take a bike ride alone on a summers evening in the tiny town where she was born and raised. Risk reduction seems to be heading towards saying just never go out, especially alone, if you're a woman. We don't feel safe doi anything anymore. And when the solution that society routinely gives is to change our own behavior and limit our own freedoms--it gets frustrating.

Hi Bluegrass!! Thanks for the reply. I think it’s very timely for this to be discussed openly – not sure if mods want to move to a separate thread so I’m not hijacking this thread…but here goes.
-Risk minimization is usually considered PC to talk about in the examples you provided (work, recreation, parenting...)because those are things we choose that, while having inherent risks, do not cause harm to us because of the criminal actions of others. The harms received from those examples would not make us victims
I probably should have explained it better,these are examples where people can become victims because of the criminal actions of others, such as worker rights (unfair dismissal), protecting children from abduction, travel choices bases on risk of terror, etc. These would all make us victims, and suggestions for minimising risk is normally accepted quite readily on parenting forums, travel blogs, etc. Yet in contrast,the minute it involves a woman and risk of or actual assault (I am a woman too,not that it should matter, but…I guess I’m proving my point now too that I feel compelled to state this lol) any offer of ways to reduce risk are shouted down or challenged. It just stuns me that’s all. As a woman, I want a very open discussion about how I can reduce my chances of appearing as a name on this site or in the news.

Anyway. I don't think it is so much that harm reduction/risk minimization campaigns are a bad thing. But they don't address the perpetrator's actions as what needs to change. I think it has to do with bigger, more systemic issues related to patriarchy and women being toblame for, well, everything. Even though I know most people don't believe it'sa woman's fault if she's raped--you often hear things regarding her dress,where she was at what time, why didn't she have someone to protect her? I think people just get fed up with others trying to explain the unexplainable by looking at what the victim did wrong rather than what the perp and society has done wrong. We put the burden of not "gettig ourselves raped" on thewoman, as opposed to addressing the individual and cultural aspects that make rape so prevalent

And this is where I think the issue lies. In a perfect world, LE would be able to prevent every crime, no person would ever be assaulted, we could choose to walk the streets anywhere in the world at 3am and nothing will happen. But we haven’t been in a perfect world for a very long time, if ever. So why are people still so insistent on avoiding the reality of it? I am 100% behind the quest to prevent crime, especially violent crime. I don’t think we do this well because at the end of the day, human behaviour is hard to predict (my background is psych and even I can admit this lol). The perfect example is terrorism – a struggle every day for authorities to pinpoint where the next attack will be and by whom.

So why not work with what we have – a risk that we all hate, that compromises our choices and our options for enjoying our lives, but a very real risk that is not going to be greatly minimised anytime soon. IMO we just need to get over ourselves and face the reality that we can reduce our risk. It has nothing to do with victim blaming, that fault always lies with the offender. But it’s a sad reality that the choices we make could greatly increase our chances of becoming a victim. So why is that so hard to talk about?

I feel your frustration and probably many others Bluegrass about that feeling that we have to be the ones to change our behaviour, but hey, the alternative is?? LE are not going to prevent these crimes occurring. Ever. They may stop a few, but in reality, the offenders are out there. I guess my take on it is this. I am a woman that wishes to go for a walk when its still dark in the morning but I won’t. Frustrating, yes. But I will still choose to wait until it’s light. Is it a realistic goal to expect to ever be able to walk in the dark on my own…nah. Cannot see this happening ever again in our society. So whilst we absolutely should acknowledge our frustration about this, we are now at a point that LE can keep working on keeping us safe, everyone should keep discussing the underlying factors that contribute to assaults, particularly on women, but we need to take responsibility for ourselves and our choices at the same time. We are expected to in every other area of our life. And hopefully the combination of these actions by others and ourselves will reduce our risk, though it will never disappear.
 
I don't think it was a group or even two perps. But maybe I'll be proved wrong.

This case makes me think of the April Millsap case (James VanCallis). In that case, it seems likely that he had seen April walking before (small community). He waited until he found her on an isolated stretch of a walking trail, in the early evening when there were plenty of other people on bikes and walking. He pulled her into the bushes on the side of the trail and she was dead shortly thereafter.
 
<snip>

As a shortcut to a path popular with joggers and cyclists, they would cut through the little-used fire roads.

But Mr. Vetrano had recently injured his back. He urged his daughter to avoid the grassy lanes kept for firefighting access, which are remote..

...Near 79th Street, she ran into the refuge via one of the shortcuts. Some 40 yards in, she was attacked.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/n...vil-person-after-a-jogger-is-killed.html?_r=0
 
They found her sneaker & earphones!


<snip>

The blue and gold New Balance sneaker and the earphones were left in opposite directions from each other in the vast Spring Creek Park, leaving investigators to believe that the savage murderer threw Vetrano&#8217;s belongings during the Tuesday night attack, sources said.

http://nypost.com/2016/08/05/new-clues-could-point-to-slain-joggers-killer/

Sixty feet is pretty far to throw, especially something light like earphones. I think the items were thrown as the perp fled. In fact, the location of the earphones and shoe make me suspect even more that there was more than one perp. The perps scattered from the crime and threw items as they left.

I'm glad the items were found and I sure hope there are fingerprints.

JMOpinion at the moment.
 
Sixty feet is pretty far to throw, especially something light like earphones. I think the items were thrown as the perp fled. In fact, the location of the earphones and shoe make me suspect even more that there was more than one perp. The perps scattered from the crime and threw items as they left.

I'm glad the items were found and I sure hope there are fingerprints.

JMOpinion at the moment.

Items may have come off when he dragged her from the path. Then, retrieved them on his way out of area & threw them:

<snip>

Investigators believe that while she was dragged her sneaker and earphones came off nearby the path and before the killer left the scene of the crime, he picked the items up and threw them in opposite directions, sources said.

http://nypost.com/2016/08/05/new-clues-could-point-to-slain-joggers-killer/
 
Got to hope they get killer(s) DNA from under fingernails or else where.
 
Reporter on both updates this morning, indicated LE believes only one suspect is involved in this...only one person responsible for this.
 
Reporter on both updates this morning, indicated LE believes only one suspect is involved in this...only one person responsible for this.
Why do they say that? Do they have foot prints? Rage involved suggests IMO mob mentality as mention by another above..

If you have a link to reporter - please post as I haven't seen that mentioned...
 
yes, but for how long I wonder.
I thought it is odd no mentions are made of her, nor no family photos of her shown. I wonder why?
Just a curious thought. I thought at first her mom had already died. :(

I went through cancer and didn't want ANY pictures taken.... probably just that.
 
Makes sense, but the media didn't post photos of her with her mom as a child even.
 
Please let's not sleuth her mom or family. :tos:
 
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