NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #10

[21merc7]

Oh yeah, and leaving the ligature on the victim would be a very good sign of strangulation. Sorry, I was just going with the bones there for a sec.

 

[downport]

"More proficient liars, or people who have rehearsed or planned a lie before telling it, actually tend to increase the frequency of their hand gestures. They’ll slice the air more with the blade of their hand or point their finger and clench their fists more frequently to illustrate and back-up what they’re saying."

Very true but . . . talking with a lot of hand gestures is pretty much the norm for most of us native New Yawkas & Laung-Eyelandaz lol

 

[Ashley123]

I am new to this profiling and forensics biz, so I have to ask, is there a way to determine that the victim was strangled if you are dealing with a bare bones skeleton?:waitasec:

I was wondering the same thing when i saw that on 48 hours, truthspider. thanks for the helpful info merc. I guess that means Caylee wasn't strangled...

 

[goathairjones]

One thing that sticks in my mind regarding CPH: Someone mentioned that he keeps a stash of medicine to treat Oak Beach residents for poison ivy. I found that rather odd!! Everyone knows the poison ivy grows rampant down there. Everyone tries to stay away from it as much as they can. We all know the "leaves of three, let it be" saying, so poison ivy exposure is probably a rare occurrence. Unless of course you are trampsing through the bramble in order to dispose of a burlap sack!!! Then you really should have some extra prednisone around so that you can self-treat yourself and you don't have to go to the emergency room every time you need to dispose of one of those sacks! I'm just saying.

 

[snapdragon2]

yeah, I just added semi (pronounced semee) to the short form of douche-bag

his voice and demeanor always seems to be the same in all the clips, not nice, not mean, just you know, New York...all business and no time for bull $hit.

"Yeah yeah, I feel for the victims and their families, yadda yadda...."

Jb is not happy to have the news in his family's driveway, so says what he needs to say, "blah blah victims and their families" (which is the right thing to say) but with the affect of someone whose life has been inconvenienced.

He's not flustered, or excited, or overly interested, or scared and nervous like the doc is. The doc's affect tends to inaccurately fit the context of the conversation. (common trait of a socio)

That is what took down Jeffery MacDonald, he claimed a band of hippys murdered his family, yet he was on tv gleaming acting like a star, and making jokes about the gov/military. Shortly after that the non-sociopath people that were defending him started to say, "what the hell is that behavior all about"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald

when the doc was asked about what happened, he said, "it's so mean ..."
I'm not saying murdering/dismembering isn't "mean", I just don't think its the correct emotion or choice of words...

His affect is also off when he is excited by the journalists trying to make him answer a certain question. Nothing about this case should have anyone feeling exhilarated, yet the investigation seems to get Hackett's blood pumping. That smirk and pointing with his finger (gun-like) seeming to say, "Ahh you almost got me" but I'm happy because I outsmarted you and won't answer that.

The investigation appears to be an exciting chess game for Hackett.[/QUOTE

You hit the nail on the head, I think, with this: "when the doc was asked about what happened, he said, "it's so mean ..."
I'm not saying murdering/dismembering isn't "mean", I just don't think its the correct emotion or choice of words..."

It is indeed a very peculiar response. They do say that sociopaths don't know how to react to things and even have to study how other people respond or express emotions and try to copy them. I obviously can't label this person a sociopath, but I'm just saying that weird response is jarring, and it is peculiar that he doesn't seem to know how to respond appropriately. I'm just sayin'....

 

[scandi]

yeah, I just added semi (pronounced semee) to the short form of douche-bag

his voice and demeanor always seems to be the same in all the clips, not nice, not mean, just you know, New York...all business and no time for bull $hit.

"Yeah yeah, I feel for the victims and their families, yadda yadda...."

Jb is not happy to have the news in his family's driveway, so says what he needs to say, "blah blah victims and their families" (which is the right thing to say) but with the affect of someone whose life has been inconvenienced.

He's not flustered, or excited, or overly interested, or scared and nervous like the doc is. The doc's affect tends to inaccurately fit the context of the conversation. (common trait of a socio)

That is what took down Jeffery MacDonald, he claimed a band of hippys murdered his family, yet he was on tv gleaming acting like a star, and making jokes about the gov/military. Shortly after that the non-sociopath people that were defending him started to say, "what the hell is that behavior all about"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald

when the doc was asked about what happened, he said, "it's so mean ..."
I'm not saying murdering/dismembering isn't "mean", I just don't think its the correct emotion or choice of words...

His affect is also off when he is excited by the journalists trying to make him answer a certain question. Nothing about this case should have anyone feeling exhilarated, yet the investigation seems to get Hackett's blood pumping. That smirk and pointing with his finger (gun-like) seeming to say, "Ahh you almost got me" but I'm happy because I outsmarted you and won't answer that.

The investigation appears to be an exciting chess game for Hackett.

You hit the nail on the head, I think, with this: "when the doc was asked about what happened, he said, "it's so mean ..."
I'm not saying murdering/dismembering isn't "mean", I just don't think its the correct emotion or choice of words..."

It is indeed a very peculiar response. They do say that sociopaths don't know how to react to things and even have to study how other people respond or express emotions and try to copy them. I obviously can't label this person a sociopath, but I'm just saying that weird response is jarring, and it is peculiar that he doesn't seem to know how to respond appropriately. I'm just sayin'....

I fixed your quote ;} Also agreeing that the doc's response was very odd IMO

 

[snapdragon2]

Ahhh.. the second letter. "When we spoke last friday".. ok so Hackett corresponds with this tv show at least 3 times. Geeez he just can't stay away from this investigation can he. Ok on to the analysis.

Oh lord, I don't want to reveal what I just figured out about this pdf. Ok I'm not going to. Damm. F#$% it. Ok, its too late and going to get out anyway... The DOPES at 48 hours didn't obscure the phone numbers properly. Open the pdf in acrobat and you can simply pull away the black blobs that hide info they SHOULDN'T be giving out. Including the docs fax num, signature and the 2 numbers he called on May 6th and 9th (Holy horrender-bender look at that docs signature, wtf.)

Ok, I believe this second letter completely incriminates the doctor.
On Thursday May 6th he calls the Mother on the number he claims to have gotten from Alex and Mike. Then at noon on the following Sunday, May 9th he calls SG's little sister on her number, NOT the number "given to him" by Pak and Diaz. Here's the key, the family never went to Oak beach until that day, Sunday, mothers day, May 9th. Unless the family had already gotten to Oak beach at noon, AND already hung up posters AND put the younger sisters phone number on the poster, AND the doc saw it on the poster ....

Then where did he get that number? because he already stated his new bullshiz alibi as to where he got the mothers number. Certainly Diaz, nor Pak, nor the mother gave this creepy looking [email protected]#$fac#$k the little sisters number. Couldn't come up with a story for where you got little sisters number could you?

So did the family happen to be going to oak beach the same day that the doc just happened to call the little sister? Or did the little sister get this call, then the family decided to go to oak beach to confront this weirdo doc for calling the little sister because they too wondered where the f%$^ he got the number?

In the second paragraph he states the family (and incorrectly calls SG's sisters Mrs. Gilberts sisters) came to his house while he had his family and guests at his house (I'm guessing there mothers day get together didn't start at noon) to confront him. "We answered questions for them to the best of our ability"

"I am perplexed as to why, almost a year later; I became a person of interest to the family" .... you were suspect #1 to the family on May 9th 2010, one week after she went "Missing" because you can't control your self and can't stay out of your fantasy role playing game even if it takes you down.

"We parted on friendly terms" ... It sure doesn't seem like it to me, they have thrown your name into the media as a liar and murderer... that's not friendly.

Hmm calling the victims little sister, calling the victims little sister, why does that sound so familiar? Oh right, that's what the SK has done to the other victims :banghead:

Seriously SCPD, make the [email protected]&#ing arrest already.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me.

Another thing that is peculiar in his letter, I find, is that he writes about how his wife and he looked through the telephone bills to find the calls. To me that feels like he's trying to give the impression that it was so inconsequential that he can't even really remember - he had to look it up to even recall that he made them. Oh yeah, I guess I did - here it is on the bill. Right. And he keeps bringing his wife in on it - as though that gives it more credibility, or him more respectability or something.

He called Shannon's sister months before the other bodies were found and therefore months before Melissa Barthelemy was identified and the phone calls to her little sister became pertinent and connected to Shannon's case. So hypothetically, if he was involved in the way we are exploring, he wouldn't have been too cautious at that point about making phone calls. It wouldn't be on his mind that anyone might make a connection.

 

[snapdragon2]

Can someone who knows more about profiling/neuro-linguistics than I do explain to me if there is any significance, and if so what is the significance, of Hackett spelling Shannan incorrectly and correctly? I may have answered this myself further down in this post

In the first letter her name occurs three times: correctly, incorrectly, correctly:
Shannan, Shannon, Shannan.

In the second letter (30 days after the first) it is spelled incorrectly all 3 times.
Shannon x 3

We don't all write well, but this struck me as odd, especially for a competent speller. (Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't find any other spelling errors in either letter) hmmm depersonalization....

Also, what if anything is the meaning behind him incorrectly capitalizing "Missing Persons Posters" ? It was the only incorrect capitalization I could find in both letters. Maybe he is trying to stress that Shannan or is it Shannon (joke) is a "Missing Persons" and not a "Murder Victim".

Finally, who the hell calls a "business card" a "calling card"? I'm 34 and from NY, maybe other age groups or some demographic uses that phrase, but I for one have never ever heard of a business card referred to as a calling card.

Look up "Calling card" online, it is much more commonly used to describe a prepaid calling card or a serial criminals signature.. not too many instances of people using it to describe their business card.
"calling card: a signature token or characteristic of a crime used by a serial criminal"

Nice innuendo CPH, but when you say "my calling card", I think of your criminal signature: depersonalization.

"The term Depersonalization is used to describe actions taken by the murderer to obscure the personal identity of the victim" - John Douglas

This is not simply done to avoid detection, but is something SK's are psychologically driven to do. They may say and think they cut off their victims hands so as to make the body harder to identify (fingerprints), but they likely did things to depersonalize their victims that was not for this purpose: pulling out fingernails, cutting off their hair, scratching out a tattoo, removing all clothing and personal effects, covering their face with blankets or pillows, rolling the victims face down on their stomachs... etc. Some forms of depersonalization are more subtle than others.

This SK used to take off hands, head and feet in order to depersonalize, this is his "calling card", sorry, his signature. He has evolved and improved, and found a better way to depersonalize his victims even further: removing all flesh and blood, leaving behind a mere skeleton. (Image attached) Fluke You seems to think he accomplishes this with the constant current of running water and possibly lime. I would call his signature "extreme depersonalization" sometimes dismembering, always removing all personal effects, stripping of all flesh, and still feeling the need to wrap them in burlap and take away their name. It's Shannan Gilbert and Charlie HackUp can't take that away.

watching you through my periscope

Yeah, I thought that was a weird choice of words too - "calling card." It's very old-fashioned. But I didn't make the connection you did and yes, that is creepy! Freudian slip of sorts?! In joke?!

I agree with someone else (sorry, can't remember who off-hand) who said the misspelling could be intentional - to give the impression he doesn't know much about her - as in, hey look - I don't even really know how to spell her name. But if that's the case, he's actually overthinking it. Because it seems to me you'd either misspell it or you wouldn't - surely someone writing a name that many times would catch themselves going back and forth. And surely someone writing a letter that important would make sure they were writing the name correctly.

If it is true that he drove cross-country with his daughter in May, I hate to say this but I think they need to look at his route and maybe do some searching where he stopped. It's horrible to say, but...

 

[Sillybilly]

I was wondering the same thing when i saw that on 48 hours, truthspider. thanks for the helpful info merc. I guess that means Caylee wasn't strangled...

<bbm>

Hi Ashley !!

Just FYI, the autopsy report on Caylee indicated the hyoid bone was not among those recovered with her remains. Here's the forum for Caylee:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=166"]Caylee Anthony 2 years old - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Redbird]

I agree with what has been said regarding the spelling issues and when I analyzed his writings, my thought was that to begin with, the guy is not a very good speller. Add to that many years of drug abuse and possible wet brain. Add a great deal of arrogance. The guy feels he is so superior to other people, he doesn't have to make sense. He expects his comments to be accepted by others without question. He intentionally misspells some words to cover up the fact that he can't spell very well. (He thinks.) It's all a big joke to him. He believes so much in his own intellectual superiority, he doesn't consider Freudian slips. The man is not as clever as he thinks he is. Big mistake. The "calling card" slip was an incredible give away.

 

[Sillybilly]

Yeah, I thought that was a weird choice of words too - "calling card." It's very old-fashioned. But I didn't make the connection you did and yes, that is creepy! Freudian slip of sorts?! In joke?!

I agree with someone else (sorry, can't remember who off-hand) who said the misspelling could be intentional - to give the impression he doesn't know much about her - as in, hey look - I don't even really know how to spell her name. But if that's the case, he's actually overthinking it. Because it seems to me you'd either misspell it or you wouldn't - surely someone writing a name that many times would catch themselves going back and forth. And surely someone writing a letter that important would make sure they were writing the name correctly.

If it is true that he drove cross-country with his daughter in May, I hate to say this but I think they need to look at his route and maybe do some searching where he stopped. It's horrible to say, but...

Not only is the term "calling card" a bit odd, but it also seems to be a term used to bolster his image. Most folks wouldn't even say "i gave them my business card", but simply "i gave them my number".

When I first heard of Shannan, I was spelling her name incorrectly as "Shannon". Since I became aware of the correct spelling, it has stood out in my mind every single time I have typed her name. IMO, NOT spelling it correctly when you know otherwise could be an indication that you do not place importance on her as a person. To those of us who do not know her personally, it is absolutely the only truly unique and identifying individual feature we can attach to her. Such a small detail, but so imporant to get it right.

There may still be others who spell SG's name incorrectly ... but they do it consistently because they have not noticed otherwise. To someone who KNOWS the correct spelling and intersperses the incorrect spelling, I feel it could be intentional to appear to be distancing themselves.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't use the "Thanks" button as often as I should (cuz i got a head like swiss cheese most days), but I do want to offer a sincere blanket Thank You to all the posters here who work so hard on finding all the detail and caring so deeply about these victims.

:gthanks::tyou:

 

[relay]

I can't help but wonder if cph did not intentionally misspell Shannan's name off and on in order to make others think he just doesn't know the spelling by heart--like he is removed from this case. This doesn't prove guilt. It just makes one wonder.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Finally!!!! I watched the 48 hrs episode. I am more convinced than ever that cph has knowledge about whatever happened to Shannan. How in the world did he get Shannan's sisters number? Considering the fact that the SK called Melissa' sister, I think it is hinky scary! The other girls bodies had not been discovered yet so this tidbit about the calls to Amanda wasn't publicized at that point.

I don't like saying this at all, but I don't think Shannan ever left Oak Beach alive. It was too much a risk for the killer to dispose of her along with the other ladies at Gilgo due to the ruckus Shannan caused that night and others were looking for her. I think cph didn't call Shannan's family to offer help. I think he called to glean information about the investigation from the family under false pretences, ie the alleged clinic where he tried to 'help' SG. I just don't see why the family would make this up?

Then there's his admitted cross country trip. Then the blantant lies...he called SG's family...he didn't call SG's family....the bf and driver 'asked' him to call SG's mom....he actually made 2 calls, one to her mom and one to her sister. The everchanging story is disturbing.

OT
I have enjoyed reading all your comments and wish to say thanks to everyone for the updates. Dear bf has been off work this week and I am just now catching up and absorbing all this new information. Wow!!

MOO as always,

wm

 

[truthspider]

Finally!!!! I watched the 48 hrs episode. I am more convinced than ever that cph has knowledge about whatever happened to Shannan. How in the world did he get Shannan's sisters number? Considering the fact that the SK called Melissa' sister, I think it is hinky scary! The other girls bodies had not been discovered yet so this tidbit about the calls to Amanda wasn't publicized at that point.

I don't like saying this at all, but I don't think Shannan ever left Oak Beach alive. It was too much a risk for the killer to dispose of her along with the other ladies at Gilgo due to the ruckus Shannan caused that night and others were looking for her. I think cph didn't call Shannan's family to offer help. I think he called to glean information about the investigation from the family under false pretences, ie the alleged clinic where he tried to 'help' SG. I just don't see why the family would make this up?

Then there's his admitted cross country trip. Then the blantant lies...he called SG's family...he didn't call SG's family....the bf and driver 'asked' him to call SG's mom....he actually made 2 calls, one to her mom and one to her sister. The everchanging story is disturbing.

OT
I have enjoyed reading all your comments and wish to say thanks to everyone for the updates. Dear bf has been off work this week and I am just now catching up and absorbing all this new information. Wow!!

MOO as always,

wm

"I think he called to glean information about the investigation from the family under false pretences"

WELL SAID!!! I think all of us who believed he made the call had varying reasons for why he would do it, but I think you really nailed it.

Also, he may have been gleaning who the numbers belonged to (that he got from SG's phone) so that he could determine which number belonged to the victims vulnerable little sister's (the SK's pattern). So that at a later date, he could call back as the evil Mr Hyde. All those taunting phone calls fall into his post crime behavior, they are a big part of his fantasy, they help to keep the crime going/alive. We have to remember unlike many serial killers, this one is also a stalker. The stalking of the family may mostly take place after the crime and over the phone/net, but its still stalking.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

truthspider, I agree with you about gleaning the numbers of the victims relatives...very astute observation fellow sleuth! He just can't help himself, can he?

I have had a few sociopaths and a few stalkers disrupt my life over the years. One observation I have regarding the sociopathic stalkers is that they find seemingly innocent ways to engratiate themselves to their prey and insert themselves into their lives in order to learn more about their prey.

Example

My stalker somehow managed to show up anywhere I went and was so bold as to pull up a chair or slide into the booth and disrupt my family dinner by insisting on talking to me about nothing while others at the table were ignored. I never shared my phone #, address, never did anything to lead him on, etc. as he was just a customer when I moonlighted as a bartender several years ago. I refrained from going out for a long time because it was so disconcerting. The last time I went out was with my DD in June for dinner and drinks for her b'day. We walked to the corner rest/bar down the street, it was crowded so we sat at the bar. Guess who slides into the stool right next to me? Stalker Guy! Talk about feeling violated!!!

Anyway, these types of people love to tell alot about themselves without providing specifics. This, IMO, is an effort to gain the trust of their prey.

For instance, I know 'the stalker' I speak of served in the military, has lived in many states throughout the US. He has contempt for the govmt and is a handyman who takes cash only jobs, supposedly has a daughter that he hasn't seen in years, he lives out of his van....but I don't know any specifics of these details because I didn't wish to engage him further by asking questions. That last encounter on DD's b'day? He announced he was retiring and going on a cross country trip. I can only hope...

I hope it is ok to share my experience and hope it gives some perspective into these types of <unusual> people.

MOO

wm

 

[da fino]

thanks for posting the link to the 48 hours piece.

I moved MP pretty far down the list after Dave Schaller gave me the impression that Amber most likely got picked up by the john directly on the night she disappeared.

since someone brought up the drifter again, i was wondering if anyone had any links to LE or the media mentioning the drifter. i do recall reading one story with a drifter, but not much more. I am doubting the drifters existence, unless of course it was possibly a reference to MP, as i believe i read somewhere he has since moved on to Georgia.

i agree CPH has surely painted an intriguing picture, however, i am not sold that he is solely responsible. i think i'm more on the page with Mrs.PC.

 

[MrsPC]

on the findshannangilbert.com site - they refer to Pak as the drifter...

 

[Redbird]

A lot of people doubt the docs involvement, thinking he would not be strong enough to subdue and carry the victims. He is overweight, but just because he is missing a leg, why would one assume he would not have the strength? He has been compensating for his disability for many years. Couldn't it be that he actually has strong arms and shoulders? Also he had at his disposal a number of drugs to render a victim unconscious and completely helpless. For some reason the drug ketamine comes to mind. Ketamine is a rapid acting anesthetic often used by veternarians. It can cause slurred speech, disorientation, loss of motor coordination, a schizophrenia like state and increases the effects of other sedatives. It has been mixed with cocaine for a recreational high. It is similar to PCP. I'm sure there are many other drugs he could use, but I thought of this as being a perfect way to quickly take someone down. It wears off fairly quickly so he could have transported them someplace to revive them, had he wished.

 

[scandi]

A lot of people doubt the docs involvement, thinking he would not be strong enough to subdue and carry the victims. He is overweight, but just because he is missing a leg, why would one assume he would not have the strength? He has been compensating for his disability for many years. Couldn't it be that he actually has strong arms and shoulders? Also he had at his disposal a number of drugs to render a victim unconscious and completely helpless. For some reason the drug ketamine comes to mind. Ketamine is a rapid acting anesthetic often used by veternarians. It can cause slurred speech, disorientation, loss of motor coordination, a schizophrenia like state and increases the effects of other sedatives. It has been mixed with cocaine for a recreational high. It is similar to PCP. I'm sure there are many other drugs he could use, but I thought of this as being a perfect way to quickly take someone down. It wears off fairly quickly so he could have transported them someplace to revive them, had he wished.

Gosh, What you say Redbird makes such sense. His arms being stronger, having access to drugs, transporting them someplace to revive them God Forbid the Thought, it just adds up for me.

I wish I'd made a list of everything we've learned about him. It would open the eyes of any tough and seasoned investigator IMO.

You are thinking of him as the possible SK, right? We've been thinking the SK is local. I'm now thinking the odds would be too high that a SK and another killer would be active from that LI area even with the semi-close time frame we have. I think whoever took Shannan also killed the other 4.