NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

CoolJ

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I will try to answer this and them need to take a break. It is too close and important an issue to me and I find it too difficult to stay unemotional and within TOS.

What I would suggest is rather than focus on the inconvenience and wonder why they're doing it, or why you can't relate, ask what it is that has so many people feeling unheard and upset. Seek out the personal stories. Check out indie media sources where the stories are written and reported by people in the affected communities. Indie Black media has been doing great reporting and in-depth stories.

If you want to help there are many, many ways, the most important, and first step being to simply listen, and not dismiss. Maybe you can support community groups with time or money. Maybe you can donate to indie media. Maybe talk to your kids about how everyone deserves to have their bodies and rights and dignity respected, even the suspects and criminals, even "the least of these".

I dunno. I don't really think it's communities of color's responsibility to tell others how thy can help, because it's very easy to find ways, and it's not the duty of people of color to educate the rest of society how they can go about fixing injustice. Maybe instead of listening to people of color, the majority needs to start with a hard look at themselves and how to fix themselves?

And with that I'm out. :peace:


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Zurich.... Great analogy.
And that is why independent research into the debacle we are experiencing as a whole needs to be addressed.
What is the role of today's LE needs to be defined. Have they become too militarized since 9/11 or has there been a need for that?
What are the expectations of the actions & roles of our citizens?
Are they accountable in any way?
Are citizens abreast of the laws & repercussions as much as they should be?
And then there is the cause & effect----if a law-breaker does this then he/she can expect this or that.
Are there grey areas & what are they (from LE's perspective & from the citizens).

See, we can't even begin to remedy a bad situation if we can't even define what all of our roles & duties are within our society.
And we must educate through research.

We all have our own perspectives, assumptions, & emotions. But that doesn't make them true. We need research, eduction, training.

It's time for that.....actually, it's long overdue.

I don't think we need research to tell us what our roles and duties are. To me it is very simple. We need to have compassion for others. If everything we do comes from that perspective, everything else will fall into place. IMO
 

Zuri

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I don't think we need research to tell us what our roles and duties are. To me it is very simple. We need to have compassion for others. If everything we do comes from that perspective, everything else will fall into place. IMO

Jumping off your post:
But do we need research to dictate what should be known as common courtesy? Going back to teaching "The Golden Rule"? We need to use common sense and get rid of the over the top sense of entitlement. I can't seem to fix it in my own children, yet they are a product of their upbringing. By me. I have created the groundwork and my children have taken it to a new level. So how do I go backwards to the route of the problem and change whatever I did to create this mindset?
 

ATasteOfHoney

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I don't think we need research to tell us what our roles and duties are. To me it is very simple. We need to have compassion for others. If everything we do comes from that perspective, everything else will fall into place. IMO

I would like to think that compassion alone would solve our nation's current crises. I really would like to believe that.
But since I'm thinking this is a festering, ongoing, & probably culminating-type of a problem, I'm suggesting something new. Research with a twist. Research with education. Research with the facts/findings broadly disseminated.
You know, to help us heal & move forward.

But you are so right....compassion is needed. Always.
 

jmcgladr

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This is on YouTube, but it's a CNN (MSM) video re: what the Grand Jury saw in the Garner case. I thought one statement toward the end of the video was interesting and may help explain why Garner was not indicted, despite all the video evidence:

"The M.E. ruled the death of EG a homicide - death at the hands of another. The GJ just couldn't single out that person as Officer Pantaleo."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlcnuVtxneg

I wonder if other officers were called in to testify? I know no one but Pantaleo was given a Grand Jury hearing. If they truly couldn't have come up with a clear picture of which actions caused EG's death, I am sorry to hear that, as that means justice was not done.
 

rosemadderlake

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I think most people have a problem with looting and violence. I know that I can understand the anger behind it, but also disagree with it and have a problem with it.

What I don't understand is having a problem with protests? We have a right to do that; IMO we also have a moral duty to that if, if we feel it is the only way to have our voices heard on an issue.


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No one enjoys protests, but protests do serve a purpose; they are the powerless rattling the attention of the powerful. When they become crimefests, the purpose is defeated. But protests have always been an element of our culture, from the Boston tea party to MLK with a lot in between and beyond. The incident that sparks them is not what they evolve into. They are generally a reaction to the overreach of power. That they are tolerated is a sign that we are still some semblance of a democracy. JMO

Bbms: Agreed. Protests happen when issues reach critical mass - and it is a powerful way to send a message. And it is a record of history. The Die-Ins are a powerful visual. -imo. I thought the one at Grand Central Station was beautiful, actually, like an ancient symbol.

-Ferguson defeated its purpose in destroying the town in the process. And I do not understand why the 2,200 extra National Guard brought in were not present on the night the verdict was announced, but instead only after the town went down in flames...

-NYC has been amazing in how it has handled the last several days with a wide breadth and leeway to let the protest happen and the voices be heard (imo). And, I believe the issues will filter out and become the voice of change whether it is raising public awareness, or in the announcement of "new training" for NYPD.

Our police forces have different issues today, too. Guns are everywhere. There are new materials being developed that would improve bullet proof vests. And, the body cam pilot program will allow NYPD to analyze specifics.

The New York Police Department on Wednesday announced plans for a small pilot program that would outfit dozens of officers with body cameras to record their interactions.

http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-t...lice-body-cameras-and-community-interactions/

There are issues on both sides of the issue, and I suspect in the midst of all the protests both sides are venting, but many are having meaningful conversations on the streets. That process has effected real change in history (as anyone there in the 60's can attest) and I am glad to see it is alive and well today in an era where the world seems more removed by all our technology. I believe the kids in particular will benefit by being part of a process that educates in a human way.
 

CoolJ

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Seems to me the mothers should also be talking about the real danger their sons face. Murder is the leading cause of death for those young men and 90% are killed by their peers, NOT by the police.

And here we go with this again. This is just not true. The leading cause of death for "those young men"(I see you edited your post) is not murder. Not even close. This misrepresentation of the facts is a big part of the divide we are seeing. Using these baseless facts as reason to avoid and invalidate the feelings of a large community of people needs to stop!

http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCODrace_ethnicityMen2010.pdf
 

jennapuppy

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It's more than an inconvenience though when you are protesting half a mile from hospitals and not letting people through. From the protests here in MO I will never forget the fear and anguish of a mother begging the protestors to let her through so she could take her sick child to the hospital. They laughed at her and refused to let her through. It took LE help.

I'm all for protesting but surrounding innocent civilians cars and threatening them is way more than an inconvenience. Moo


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Closing businesses during the holiday season is also not productive, IMO. Merchants count on holiday revenues to keep their businesses afloat. Single mothers count on the extra income to help provide for their children. College students count on the extra income to help pay their tuition. I don't see how this brings positive attention to the problem.
JMO
 

Archangel7

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So the bias is perpetuated and nothing changes and we end up with situations such as this. So how do we change? Can we as a country get beyond the bias?

Yes. There has to be some form of the following.... A Self Discovery that leads to the realization that there are simply some things a living breathing human must do, the Gov. can't do it for you.

Things like bringing back ethics and morals, families, marriage, education and SELF RESPONSIBILITY/SELF ACCOUNTABILITY those lead to pride and self improvement by taking advantage of all the programs Dr. King worked for.

We have literally been 50 years into making a better life available. Are we now stating or accepting no real tangible progress? Why not? We are still rioting and protesting the system even tho it was changed for the better 50 years ago. Where do you assign responsibility?

Believe me I've tried my best. Try telling a 14 year old drug dealer making $1000.00/week to quit it, better himself and WHAT, go work at Macky Ds? He thought I was insane.
Try telling a man to do the right thing and support his wife and kid and stop running around on them getting drunk and wasting family money on drugs when the women at the "club" are there for the picking and heck that kid is on the street all the time is dealing his favorite drug. He thought I was insane.
 

jggordo

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I understand your point, but IMO it is not as clear cut as this. EG was also culpable in the events that unfolded. This is a grey area for me and I am not sure LE should be held 100 % accountable for the death of EG. To me, it was a Perfect Storm. How does one lay the entire blame at the feet of LE?

ETA: I can't even find Reckless Endangerment here per definition. It has to do with intent and I don't think LE intended for EG to die.

Penal

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.


Section: Previous Article 125 125.00 125.05 125.10 125.11 125.12 125.13 125.14 125.15 125.20 125.21 125.22 125.25 125.26 125.27 Next
Last modified: February 16, 2014

IMO using an unapproved chokehold against the victim constitutes "choking" or "strangulation" as a crime. He cannot say only meant to strangle him "a little", and also an officer can't evoke an arrest "even if it kills you".

JMO's




http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0125.10_125.10.html
 

Archangel7

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And here we go with this again. This is just not true. The leading cause of death for "those young men"(I see you edited your post) is not murder. Not even close. This misrepresentation of the facts is a big part of the divide we are seeing. Using these baseless facts as reason to avoid and invalidate the feelings of a large community of people needs to stop!

http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCODrace_ethnicityMen2010.pdf

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/228479.pdf
In 2008, although black youth accounted
for just 16% of the youth population
ages 10–17, they were involved in 52%
of juvenile Violent Crime Index arrests
and 33% of juvenile Property Crime
Index arrests.
 

jmcgladr

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Yes. There has to be some form of the following.... A Self Discovery that leads to the realization that there are simply some things a living breathing human must do, the Gov. can't do it for you.

Things like bringing back ethics and morals, families, marriage, education and SELF RESPONSIBILITY/SELF ACCOUNTABILITY those lead to pride and self improvement by taking advantage of all the programs Dr. King worked for.

We have literally been 50 years into making a better life available. Are we now stating or accepting no real tangible progress? Why not? We are still rioting and protesting the system even tho it was changed for the better 50 years ago. Where do you assign responsibility?

Believe me I've tried my best. Try telling a 14 year old drug dealer making $1000.00/week to quit it, better himself and WHAT, go work at Macky Ds? He thought I was insane.
Try telling a man to do the right thing and support his wife and kid and stop running around on them getting drunk and wasting family money on drugs when the women at the "club" are there for the picking and heck that kid is on the street all the time is dealing his favorite drug. He thought I was insane.

Wouldn't legalization and regulation of all drugs pretty much take care of the profit motives of being in that industry? The drug war has been a failure. Drugs being illegal is the only reason why there is a black market and someone can make $1000 a week selling drugs. If drugs were legalized and regulated, and drug addiction seen as a medical issue rather than a criminal one, I don't think we would see so many sad cases of drug addiction out there either - nor drug related thefts/crimes. Just a few thoughts.
 

CoolJ

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I would like to think that compassion alone would solve our nation's current crises. I really would like to believe that.
But since I'm thinking this is a festering, ongoing, & probably culminating-type of a problem, I'm suggesting something new. Research with a twist. Research with education. Research with the facts/findings broadly disseminated.
You know, to help us heal & move forward.

But you are so right....compassion is needed. Always.

I am not a fan of research, as I feel research is rarely truly independent. I also find it doesn't provide answers and instead actually just creates more questions. But I do believe there is a place for it as it can provide insight into specific topics. But compassion for you fellow human beings is the answer in and of itself. So if you want to know what each of us needs to do to make things better, that is where you start. Our only responsibility is to make ourselves a better person. If every person on earth lived from that mindset, we would eradicate most of the suffering on this planet including the problems we are speaking of hear today.
JMO
 

Zuri

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Penal

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.


Section: Previous Article 125 125.00 125.05 125.10 125.11 125.12 125.13 125.14 125.15 125.20 125.21 125.22 125.25 125.26 125.27 Next
Last modified: February 16, 2014

IMO using an unapproved chokehold against the victim constitutes "choking" or "strangulation" as a crime. He cannot say only meant to strangle him "a little", and also an officer can't evoke an arrest "even if it kills you".

JMO's




http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0125.10_125.10.html

Up thread, I think Archangel addressed this. He described the difference between a chokehold and a takedown maneuver (sorry can't remember the exact term). I truly am not sure the actual takedown maneuver was EG COD.
 

CoolJ

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https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/228479.pdf
In 2008, although black youth accounted
for just 16% of the youth population
ages 10–17, they were involved in 52%
of juvenile Violent Crime Index arrests
and 33% of juvenile Property Crime
Index arrests.

OK this is a different statistic representing a different issue. I do acknowledge it is a problem but why can't we just stop with trying prove why these peoples feelings are invalid and actually listen to them, acknowledge them and really take some time to consider that maybe, just maybe what they are saying has some truth to it?

I would also like to ask why you believe that statistic you linked is the way it is? Do you think it is a possibility that it is the way it is because of an inherent bias within the system? This just tells us who is getting arrested, it doesn't tell us who is actually committing these crimes.
 

SCHMAE

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There are lots of places online where one can discuss the bigger issues involving this case. I'm pleased WS doesn't allow it here. It keeps the topic on points of law and whether or not it was broken, whether or not there are lies or omissions re: grand jury.
Please remove Eric Garner from the equation and watch the video again and focus on the actions of LE and EMT and instead of Garner imagine your father, son, brother , nephew, husband. That is ALL that one needs to know about Garner. He WAS someone's husband, son, father, brother. So if it's your dad in that video, do you see it the same? Your son ?
Before you say " my father, son , husband'' is not a criminal, think really hard. Aren't they ? Aren't we almost all? Do you never driver 56 mph? Do you always claim the money on your IRS forms that you sold that old tv for to your cousin for $30 ? Did you claim that ? My son is a criminal this week. Since December 1st , his inspection has expired on his car. He could not go get it inspected until he had a paycheck AND a day off of work. Then yesterday he got busy taking friends to look at Christmas decorations in town. So 7 full days , he's been a criminal. Luckily has not gotten a ticket yet and hopes to make it to inspect before work in the morning ( closed Sundays ). Once my dad drove for 2 yrs without a tag on his car and he thought it was funny that LE doesn't pull over old men too much ( funny ? or food for thought ) so he just put it off and off and then he forgot. He eventually did get a ticket, but he was a criminal flying under the radar for a long time. So I think it's very easy to say ' hes' a criminal, he had it coming'. But think about your own family and friends. I don't know the answers here. I do feel that his own health and size surely must be a contributing factor but I don't think you get to excuse it because of that. If you murdered someone and were on trial and your defense said ' the victim had cancer and only 6 months to live'',,,, it really doesn't matter one bit, does it?

ETA As a matter of fact, tax evasion is a WHOLE lot more serious a crime than peddling loosies. I think very few can say they've reported every cent ever made to the IRS, garage sales, ebay items, craigslist ads to sell ur baby clothes, etc. Think hard and cast that stone if you can.
 

magnolia

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I would like to think that compassion alone would solve our nation's current crises. I really would like to believe that.
But since I'm thinking this is a festering, ongoing, & probably culminating-type of a problem, I'm suggesting something new. Research with a twist. Research with education. Research with the facts/findings broadly disseminated.
You know, to help us heal & move forward.

But you are so right....compassion is needed. Always.

Compassion and understanding of what a police officer faces everyday would also help. Perhaps some might have a better understanding if they rode with an officer for a week. They might understand why all officers can't be "Andy of Mayberry".
 

jmcgladr

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Question: Are chokeholds/sleeper holds/maneuvers to take down suspects by putting your arm around their neck even necessary or a good idea? Especially when there are multiple officers on scene? It seems like people who are not medical professionals should not be taking chances about restricting someone's airway or blood supply, when they don't know what possible serious consequences could result (especially with other medical factors the suspect may have). With 5 or 6 officers on scene, was there no other, safer way EG could have been put under arrest?
 

ATasteOfHoney

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Question: Are chokeholds/sleeper holds/maneuvers to take down suspects by putting your arm around their neck even necessary or a good idea? Especially when there are multiple officers on scene? It seems like people who are not medical professionals should not be taking chances about restricting someone's airway or blood supply, when they don't know what possible serious consequences could result (especially with other medical factors the suspect may have). With 5 or 6 officers on scene, was there no other, safer way EG could have been put under arrest?

I know the use of tasers can cause heart attacks in certain people.
What would you suggest?
 

jmcgladr

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I know the use of tasers can cause heart attacks in certain people.
What would you suggest?

Well, in this case the multiple officers on scene could have likely surrounded EG and managed to get his hands behind his back without even forcing him to the ground. I mean, 6 to 1? Even with a big guy, that's pretty good odds you can make an arrest on an unarmed man without throwing him to the ground. Tasers would have been a bad idea here, IMO, as I think they need space to be safe and effective.
 

Archangel7

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Question: Are chokeholds/sleeper holds/maneuvers to take down suspects by putting your arm around their neck even necessary or a good idea? Especially when there are multiple officers on scene? It seems like people who are not medical professionals should not be taking chances about restricting someone's airway or blood supply, when they don't know what possible serious consequences could result (especially with other medical factors the suspect may have). With 5 or 6 officers on scene, was there no other, safer way EG could have been put under arrest?

Unless something has changed, we teach the full "naked strangle hold" to all our US Marine Corp in boot camp. They practice it on one another.

ANY method of force can be used IF it is legally justifiable EVEN if it's against policy. Policy doesn't equal law.
The hold is taught in many if not all Police Academies.
However this EG case wasn't any type or form of that technique.
 
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