SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[SammieJean]

I don't know if this article was shared. It's from radaronline. And warning, it does show one of the bodies with the tape around them, but not clearly. You can see that they were bound fairly tight, with tape on the boots
Also their floating bodies would not have been seen if they were at about the spot their bodies were resting on the rocks. They would have had to been out further out from shore, which again points to them being in the water longer than just a few hours as recently drowned don't float.
Cops Seek Surveillance Video For Two Dead Sisters Found Bound By Duct Tape In River

They were separated before being brought to the ME’s office then? In my schooling for Forensic Technology, bodies are typically brought in ‘as they are’. I’ve even seen a body in a trash can delivered to the Medical Examiner, just so the ME can get the full picture.

EXAMPLE of the trash can:



I know policy and procedure is different in different departments but I think they should have been left together until the autopsies.

Another thing that’s been nagging me is maybe the sisters were ‘ordered’ to do this? Or maybe the mom/brother/whoever thought if they were out of the picture they could stay in the US since it was the sisters’ ‘fault’ they were told to leave?

Following the credit card angle carefully as well...

 

[JudgeJudi]

Eyewitness came forward and says he saw both of them in a park near the river. They were seated about 30 feet apart and were praying. This was at 7 am when he would do exercises near the same park.

The witness said he saw them praying at 7.00 a.m. IF they intended to commit suicide and wished to pray beforehand, that time is a little bit early but Islamic prayer time in NYC on 24 Oct was 7:17 a.m.

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

Posting the direct link to the video of the press conference again for convenience in case anyone is interested. It is at the very bottom of the page, so please scroll down.

He spends the first 13 to 14 minutes talking about Tala and Rotana. The rest is unrelated to their case.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.fox5ny.com/news/saudi-sisters-found-dead-arrived-in-nyc-on-sept-1

 

[JudgeJudi]

If they were murdered, they would have put up a fight, and two people would be needed to subdue them in order to bring them together. If there was only one killer, the second girl would have screamed for help when the first one was attacked.

At that time of the morning there were bound to be other people out and about in the area. I can’t see anyone forcibly taping the girls together without being seen, but more importantly, heard. Bearing in mind they begged the police to not send them back to the family and also saying that they’d rather self-harm than return to SA, to me suicide looks likely.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I've now come to the conclusion that it probably was a double suicide for one reason ... their hands were free. If a person/s was going to murder them by drowning, the hands would be the first things that would have been bound with duct tape. This would stop them from attempting to loosen or remove any other duct tape on their bodies. Even if they were bound together at the waist and feet, if their hands were free they would be able to pull themselves out into deeper water. It would no doubt be very tiring, but all the more difficult to get back to shore if they changed their minds.

No matter how they died, this is a terrible tragedy and waste of human life. May they R.I.P.

 

[Shlock Homes]

They were separated before being brought to the ME’s office then? In my schooling for Forensic Technology, bodies are typically brought in ‘as they are’. I’ve even seen a body in a trash can delivered to the Medical Examiner, just so the ME can get the full picture.

EXAMPLE of the trash can:

View attachment 153824

I know policy and procedure is different in different departments but I think they should have been left together until the autopsies.

Yes, it appears they removed them on separate stretchers. I'm glad you're not the only one who thought that was odd. By separating them, they could have lost some key evidence. And I am also concerned they are so focused on calling this a suicide, they aren't checking for fingerprints or fibers on the duct tape, for example.
Also, it's still not clear how they identified the bodies in the first place. Did they have IDs on them? Their sketches clearly didn't look similar enough to be of the same women we saw in the passport photos. In fact, I thought they might have been black or hispanic until their names were released.

If they were murdered, they would have put up a fight, and two people would be needed to subdue them in order to bring them together. If there was only one killer, the second girl would have screamed for help when the first one was attacked.

At that time of the morning there were bound to be other people out and about in the area. I can’t see anyone forcibly taping the girls together without being seen, but more importantly, heard. Bearing in mind they begged the police to not send them back to the family and also saying that they’d rather self-harm than return to SA, to me suicide looks likely.

Whatever was done to them, I assume it was at another location. Then they were transported to the water and dumped. They could have been under heavy sedation hence not screaming out. If they were intent on killing themselves why go through the elaborate effort to not only thorough duct tape themselves together, but also their own feet?

 

[Shlock Homes]

Really interesting post Shlock Holmes, thank you for this link, love it!!! Made me very interested in looking into the temps of the water for those days. Hope it helps.

I have personally always known that bodies that have gone in the East River during the freezing months pop up in April and May because of the temps getting warmer.. it happens every year here in NYC. I am assuming its the same with the Hudson since its only on the other side.

With that in mind I started thinking...The weather has been really weird for the last month .. Sometimes it dips to 40s (38 I believe was the lowest) and other days it has been in the 70s.


Now according to the link below, The water temp at Battery Park (which is on the Hudson) would of been approximately 58 degrees around Oct 24 according to this chart.

https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/cwtg/all_meanT.html​

According to this article, it says if the water is Below 39 degrees the bacteria cannot metabolize. But if its over 40 degrees it can make gasses and floats
Grim sign of Spring: This is why dead bodies float to surface of NYC waterways

"Bodies that have gone into the water in November, December and January when the water is cold, the bodies stay under the water until the water warms up enough," said Baden.

Baden says bodies are filled with bacteria.

"When the water is below 39 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can't metabolize in intestinal tracks. As the water gets up over 40 degrees, the bacteria starts making gases that causes the body to rise to the surface," adds Baden.

I felt this needed to be looked at because it was odd that the police suddenly jumped onto a 'source' that claims they saw two women praying at a park on the same day. And that was a complete 180 on their theory of the women jumping off the GWB. I understand they ruled that out because of the cameras and suicide prevention barriers on there, and the lack of trauma on the bodies, but their guess was also based on two deceased drowning victims being buoyant and being carried downstream at a certain speed and not exhibiting a lot of visual decomposition, but still having some decomp considering they would have been heavier being bound together and wearing soaking clothing.
I wonder why they are holding off on releasing parts of the autopsy that at least gives estimated time of death? The medical examiner would have determined by now how long they were deceased and in the water. It should have no bearing on the toxicology reports, which take longer.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I think a civilian in the area took pictures and camera phone video and sold it to Radar online. In the picture they posted in the upper left it looks like civilians looking down as it wasn't completely blocked off yet.

Looking at a satellite view of the area, I can see there's an area that juts out further into the water to the south of that walkway called Riverside Park South. I guess they didn't close off that area to onlookers.

 

[mickey2942]

This is a pretty unsubtle message to women and young girls who come from traditional backgrounds. I believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg, and few of these types of "accidents" are ever discovered, much less investigated.

Were these two young women ever reported missing from anyone? I didn't think so...they disappear, and no one says a word. A few comments might be made, "So and so went back 'home'". But no one checks on passport exits, because the family, the very people who should be the most concerned, say nothing.

 

[musicaljoke]

Another thing that’s been nagging me is maybe the sisters were ‘ordered’ to do this? Or maybe the mom/brother/whoever thought if they were out of the picture they could stay in the US since it was the sisters’ ‘fault’ they were told to leave?

Following the credit card angle carefully as well...

Oh yes, the credit card could very well be important. I have done work with setting up financial independence for Newcomers, and a major credit card option that is available to them has a $500 limit, but the bank holds $500 as a deposit. It is unheard of for newcomers to have credit cards with any significant amount of credit.

But, if a suitable benefactor is co-named on the credit card, and is responsible for the payments, then the limit can be higher. Such a person would also have access to the spending, including restaurants and hotels, so if the benefactor wanted to keep tabs on a niece or nephew, this is one way to accomplish it. I'm not saying that this happened in this case, but I agree that one must follow the credit card angle carefully.

 

[musicaljoke]

I get the skepticism that people have. I also want to make sure we have the truth about what happen to these young women. That said, (and this is not about your post per se, musicaljoke) NYPD doesn't talk quickly or without believing that they have a high level confidence in the information shared. Usually NYPD will say nothing, which was driving all of us nuts early on in this case.

It makes sense to me that this was them for a couple of reasons. Cards were maxed out. Mom had talked to them about going back to SA. So options were running out.

Did mom talk to them about going back to SA? I hadn't read that she had contact with them on Oct 23rd or 24th.

These are some quotes from MSM:

The family of the sisters told authorities they hadn't seen them since Nov. 30, 2017. The sisters were located that December and went to the shelter facility, Shea said. They still had no contact with their family, and Shea said the sisters alleged abuse involving their mother, father and brother. No abuse has been corroborated, Shea said, without elaborating.

Saudi Sisters Found Dead in NYC Reported Abuse in Virginia


A Saudi official said that [...] the embassy did not know whether the Farea sisters had applied for asylum.

“The mother’s immigration status was expired,” the official said. “Immigration asked her to leave, and we asked for an extension for her and that is what the conversation was about, not the alleged asylum.”

‘I don’t know where my daughters are’: Odd encounter deepens mystery surrounding disappearance and deaths of Saudi sisters - The Washington Post

 

[Kid Dropsy]

Still feeling as I did when posting OP - these women drowned themselves.

That is melodramatic enough without adding other moving parts, I would say.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Did mom talk to them about going back to SA? I hadn't read that she had contact with them on Oct 23rd or 24th.

The family of the sisters told authorities they hadn't seen them since Nov. 30, 2017. The sisters were located that December and went to the shelter facility, Shea said.

They still had no contact with their family, and Shea said the sisters alleged abuse involving their mother, father and brother. No abuse has been corroborated, Shea said, without elaborating.

Saudi Sisters Found Dead in NYC Reported Abuse in Virginia


A Saudi official said that [...] the embassy did not know whether the Farea sisters had applied for asylum.

“The mother’s immigration status was expired,” the official said. “Immigration asked her to leave, and we asked for an extension for her and that is what the conversation was about, not the alleged asylum.”

‘I don’t know where my daughters are’: Odd encounter deepens mystery surrounding disappearance and deaths of Saudi sisters - The Washington Post

That's what is making the story confusing, and the police seem to be trying to steer the investigation into a suicide by bringing up these motivation factors. And add to that, allegations that the sisters were heard saying things like they'd rather die than go back. Well, when did the sisters find out they had to go back? If that communication between the mother and the saudi embassy happened the day before the bodies were found, how would the mother relay that to the daughters who were still missing? Was their spending spree due to them not wanting to go back? The police also give a week's gap between the last time they were spotted on video and when their bodies were found, but don't say if the card continued to be used at that time.
So many more questions keep coming up. I still don't believe there was reason for them to commit suicide. If they were living in a shelter for several months, they could have continued that lifestyle in another location.

 

[borndem]

I'd be interested in seeing a reenactment of how they were taped together exactly.

Same here -- Autopsy reports usually describe how the body was found when the body is received, like "The body was found clothed in a red shirt, blue jeans, a brown leather belt, and Adidas running shoes, white socks. A watch was found on the left wrist and a gold stud earring in the left ear," etc. Certainly the A/R will describe the tape on each body, etc., and photos would also be taken. We certainly won't see photos, but a description would speak to how they were actually found. IF the A/R is released to the public and IF an autopsy is even permitted on these women, we should learn more.

Another point about autopsies in this case is the Muslim laws regarding delay of funeral and desecration of the body. This article describes the problems with autopsies WRT religious laws:

Religions and the Autopsy
[...]
Although cultural or religious beliefs are often cited as a reason for opposition to autopsy, most religions and cultures find autopsies acceptable either based on the individual's beliefs or special circumstances. [3] Certain religions outright object (eg, Islam and Judaism) in that bodily intrusion violates beliefs about the sanctity of keeping the human body complete, although religious doctrine does not in of itself strictly forbid autopsies. Instead, it is a matter of interpretation of the doctrines which have changed over time.

Religions and the Autopsy: Overview, Islam, Judaism

 

[bears10]

Yes, it appears they removed them on separate stretchers. I'm glad you're not the only one who thought that was odd. By separating them, they could have lost some key evidence. And I am also concerned they are so focused on calling this a suicide, they aren't checking for fingerprints or fibers on the duct tape, for example.
Also, it's still not clear how they identified the bodies in the first place. Did they have IDs on them? Their sketches clearly didn't look similar enough to be of the same women we saw in the passport photos. In fact, I thought they might have been black or hispanic until their names were released.



Whatever was done to them, I assume it was at another location. Then they were transported to the water and dumped. They could have been under heavy sedation hence not screaming out. If they were intent on killing themselves why go through the elaborate effort to not only thorough duct tape themselves together, but also their own feet?

You need to get fingerprinted when you apply for asylum. So that’s one way they could have been identified.

While it’s always good to be skeptical and do your own research, sometimes it just is what it is. Not everything is a conspiracy and more often than not, LE knows what they are doing way more than us armchair sleuths do. JMO

Eta - I feel like there’s really simply and logical answers to a lot of the things people continue to be skeptical about. Quick google searches can answer a lot of questions JMO

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

From a NYT article published yesterday:

“The (witness), who Chief Shea said was exercising in Riverside Park about 7 a.m. on Oct. 24, told the police that he had seen the two women nearby sitting approximately 30 feet apart with their heads bowed and making loud noises that he described as praying.

The sisters, who were seen in a playground by the witness roughly between 158th and 163rd Streets, were several feet from the river and would have had easy access to the water, which could explain why they were found downriver, Chief Shea said.

At about 3 p.m. that day, a passer-by discovered their bodies, clad in similar black jackets and black leggings, below a pier about 100 blocks south near 68th Street.”
Saudi Sisters, Fleeing Abuse and Seeking Asylum, May Have Committed Suicide, Police Say

I may have found the playground where the two women were seen. It’s called “Nature Discovery Playground” (photo 1):
Google Maps

Zoomed in, it really is right on water (photo 2). The area along the river looks quite wooded, which may be why the women were able to tie themselves to each other without being noticed (at least that we are aware of).

 

[Shlock Homes]

From a NYT article published yesterday:

“The (witness), who Chief Shea said was exercising in Riverside Park about 7 a.m. on Oct. 24, told the police that he had seen the two women nearby sitting approximately 30 feet apart with their heads bowed and making loud noises that he described as praying.

The sisters, who were seen in a playground by the witness roughly between 158th and 163rd Streets, were several feet from the river and would have had easy access to the water, which could explain why they were found downriver, Chief Shea said.

At about 3 p.m. that day, a passer-by discovered their bodies, clad in similar black jackets and black leggings, below a pier about 100 blocks south near 68th Street.”
Saudi Sisters, Fleeing Abuse and Seeking Asylum, May Have Committed Suicide, Police Say

I may have found the playground where the two women were seen. It’s called “Nature Discovery Playground” (photo 1):
Google Maps

Zoomed in, it really is right on water (photo 2). The area along the river looks quite wooded, which may be why the women were able to tie themselves to each other without being noticed (at least that we are aware of).

It still doesn't explain how their bodies were able to reach the final resting spot. There's long pier that would have been an obstruction just north of where their bodies were found. And if they drowned, then they would have sank, they would not have floated like logs down river immediately after drowning. And if they think they entered the water near that park, they should find evidence of their activity, like the duct tape roll, scissors, perhaps their purses.

 

[bears10]

It still doesn't explain how their bodies were able to reach the final resting spot. There's long pier that would have been an obstruction just north of where their bodies were found. And if they drowned, then they would have sank, they would not have floated like logs down river immediately after drowning. And if they think they entered the water near that park, they should find evidence of their activity, like the duct tape roll, scissors, perhaps their purses.

And perhaps they have found such evidence but just didn’t state it publicly.

 

[K_Z]

Oh yes, the credit card could very well be important. I have done work with setting up financial independence for Newcomers, and a major credit card option that is available to them has a $500 limit, but the bank holds $500 as a deposit. It is unheard of for newcomers to have credit cards with any significant amount of credit.

But, if a suitable benefactor is co-named on the credit card, and is responsible for the payments, then the limit can be higher. Such a person would also have access to the spending, including restaurants and hotels, so if the benefactor wanted to keep tabs on a niece or nephew, this is one way to accomplish it. I'm not saying that this happened in this case, but I agree that one must follow the credit card angle carefully.

I don't think we should assume that the credit card Rotana used discussed by authorities is issued by an American bank. It is entirely possible/ plausible that the card was from a financial institution outside the U.S., from Saudi Arabia or the EU.

If the card was a high limit (which seems quite likely), it's possible it was opened by the father on behalf of Rotana, who would not have qualified for a high limit card on her own. Since the father was mostly outside the U.S., he may not have been aware of the rapidly escalating charges and hitting the limit. (Perhaps the father has an accountant who takes care of his financial matters for his family in the U.S.?)

Simply search for "Saudi Arabian credit cards" or Saudi Arabian credit cards with visa logo", Saudi Arabian credit cards to use in the U.S., or similar.

Of course, it would be very interesting to also know what the details are of the mother's finances since 2015-- how she had access to cash and credit, bank accounts, whether or not she paid the ordinary bills for the 3 kids and herself, etc.

 

[K_Z]

The witness said he saw them praying at 7.00 a.m. IF they intended to commit suicide and wished to pray beforehand, that time is a little bit early but Islamic prayer time in NYC on 24 Oct was 7:17 a.m.

Yes, and first prayer was at 6:31 that day. Second prayer always coincides with sunrise. So the ambient light levels would have been rather low at the time the witness says he thinks he saw them praying. (How far away was he?)

NYC weather on 24 Oct was partly sunny, upper 40s to low 50s. No rain.