OH - Larry Mugrage, 15, fatally shot, Batavia, 19 March 2006

[Yakwoman]

Not a reason to kill...but not a reason to misunderstand what we all know. Train your child to respect and honor their neighbors and others, or their choice will threaten their lives.

Wrinkles

Wrinkles - you said it! :clap:

 

[mysteriew]

Hate to say it, but that's what I first envisioned about this kid, that he was a disrespectful punk. Why did he need to walk on this guy's lawn? I can understand it if it were the only way to get to his home. Somehow, I doubt that was the case.

It ticks me off when the parents of the kids at Halloween allow the kids to take a shortcut across my lawn instead of walking down the driveway. However, I think that I also did that as a kid (but my parents weren't with me).


That being said, the man should have just let it go. Eventually, the kid would have grown up and moved away. Now, two lives are ruined; and the man won't have any control at all over his lawn. I wonder if he now thinks that it was worth it.

ETA: I believe that this was an impulsive act. What separates humans from animals is that we are able to control our impulses. How many times have you wanted to ram a car that has just pulled out in front of you, causing you to put on your brakes? If we all acted on our impulses, this world would be even scarier than it already is!

I can buy that they first shot might have been impulsive (though I am not sure how impulsive it is to be sitting there with a gun). But then when he missed, he cocked the gun and walked closer to him and shot him in the back. To me that is a little beyond impulsive.

 

[nanandjim]

I can buy that they first shot might have been impulsive (though I am not sure how impulsive it is to be sitting there with a gun). But then when he missed, he cocked the gun and walked closer to him and shot him in the back. To me that is a little beyond impulsive.

Oh, I didn't know the details. This does sound a bit diabolical.

 

[bbmcrae]

This is quite a debate. Thanks to all who said nice things about my arguments. For those who think walking on someone else's yard is worse than murder, perhaps you should publish your addresses, so the rest of us can avoid your yards or at least wear armor.

I'm strapping on my jet pack and escaping the madness on this one. I have a feeling it's a moot point. No sane jury would say it's okay to shoot someone dead over walking on a lawn. And no compassionate person would say the parents of the kid should feel shame over their kid's actions at this point.

See you on another topic. Zoooom!

 

[Cupcake]

I've read this entire thread, and I must say, I am shocked that anyone could have any sympathy for this old man or defend him, a man who was obviously looking out his window, who had a shotgun ready at the first sign this 15 year old touched his precious grass so he could murder him. Over grass!!!!

If this guy really had been "harassed" by this kid and his parents, where's the evidence of it? The police reports? The neighbors reports? I talk to my neighbors when I have a problem with another neighbor ... where is the evidence? All we have is this old man's word ... there is precious little grass is going to do him in prison.

 

[nanandjim]

...perhaps you should publish your addresses, so the rest of us can avoid your yards or at least wear armor...

A simpler solution would be to stay off of other peoples' lawns, don't you think?

In any case, I don't think anyone thinks that walking across a lawn is a worse offense than murder. People are just saying that the kid shouldn't have done it. Just think, if the kid had stayed off of this guy's lawn, two lives would have been spared. No...I'm not justifying what the guy did.

I just don't think that it does any good to provoke anyone. Isn't it best just to avoid a confrontation, whether you are in the right or the wrong??

 

[Wrinkles]

Dear NanAndJim,

I've read your postings for a number of years and watched them for their sensibilities - taking note.

You wrote:
>>A simpler solution would be to stay off of other peoples' lawns, don't you think?<<

The above comment was so precise and wise in my opinion. There are some things that seem so very easy. How can we avoid pain to someone else or ourselves? A little simple respect could turn so many situations.

Wrinkles

 

[nanandjim]

Dear NanAndJim,

I've read your postings for a number of years and watched them for their sensibilities - taking note...

Thanks for the compliment. :blushing: It is truly appreciated.

 

[BeeBee]

perhaps you should publish your addresses, so the rest of us can avoid your yards or at least wear armor.

I know you feel strongly about this subject but I don't think asking people to publish their addresses helps the situation. Otherwise, this has been a good debate on the situation. I don't think the boy should have been killed either but..... And there is always a "but" in any debate.

 

[eve]

CP,

You wrote:
"The bottum line is you don't kill people over grass."

This wasn't about grass, I think I made that point. Is it okay for your kids to disrespect the property of others? Just asking...

Details, you wrote:
>>I can't see it being about boundaries - your front yard isn't that much yours<<

Do you own a front yard? Just asking.

If my son comes and disrespects the boundaries of your little girls clothing, is that okay? If he rapes and kills her (God forbid), is this okay?

To some...what happened to this old man was a killing of him... I somewhat see that.

Wrinkles

Wrinkles,

Your point about young people showing respect is well-taken. I have repeated my belief that kids need to learn that some people will blow up over things like lawns and so they should avoid trespassing, especially deliberate repetitive trespassing. I still have not heard the whole story about this boy and what he was doing.

However, that being said, it does NOT matter what the kid was doing. Walking across his lawn, being a smart-alec to him or even commiting vandalism against him does not amount to "the killing" of this older man.

You say this man was kind. I beg to differ. A kind man controls his anger, especially with youth, and tries to model and teach proper behavior. If anyone has "dishonored" moral values here, it is this adult who murdered someone for youthful folly and poor judgment. Young men's brains aren't even totally developed. Yes, some of them are obnoxious until they're 24, they may be a pain in the azz and rude to boot but should they be killed for it?

It is NOT justifiable to protect your PROPERTY with the taking of a life! American law does not allow this kind of citizen-imposed punishment for crossing "boundaries." Your yard is not an international border. Sorry.

Yes, I've owned several houses and have 3 kids. I'm also a teacher of high schoolers and know a thing or two about them.

Eve

 

[Ntegrity]

So, the next time you see someone obsessing over something trivial it could be in the best interest of your community to at least inform LE and not discount it to eccentricity.

I can just see it now. "Hello, 911? I'd like to report that my neighbor is measuring his grass with a ruler. Please send a patrol car to check this out!"

Eccentrics in my mind are little old ladies with tons of cats or dodads all around their homes. But never threatening. Never abusive.

Then you have a lot to learn about OCD. My MIL is the "sweetest" little old lady in the world until something gets out of kilter in her perfect world. When she was in the hospital a few years ago, my husband made the mistake of trying to clean off her kitchen counter by throwing away some junk mail that was over a year old. I'm talking about totally worthless bulk mail. She completely freaked out and wouldn't speak to him for over a year. In her mind, her life was nearly ruined by the loss of this stuff.

 

[nanandjim]

...A kind man controls his anger, especially with youth, and tries to model and teach proper behavior...

Perhaps, if the man had befriended the boy and not been confrontational, it would have made a different.

I have thought about how my father (now deceased) would have handled this situation. I think that he would have talked to the youth, explaining how important his lawn was to him and why he was concerned about the boy walking across the lawn all of the time.

I think that my father probably would have made the deal with the kid to pay him to help him keep his lawn in tiptop shape. He would have let the kid mow his lawn and gotten him to help with putting down fertilizer, etc.

Then, the boy would have a vested interested in the man's lawn and would keep other kids off of it, too!

 

[BeeBee]

Perhaps, if the man had befriended the boy and not been confrontational, it would have made a different.

I have thought about how my father (now deceased) would have handled this situation. I think that he would have talked to the youth, explaining how important his lawn was to him and why he was concerned about the boy walking across the lawn all of the time.

I think that my father probably would have made the deal with the kid to pay him to help him keep his lawn in tiptop shape. He would have let the kid mow his lawn and gotten him to help with putting down fertilizer, etc.

Then, the boy would have a vested interested in the man's lawn and would keep other kids off of it, too!

This could be true if the boy was doing this all on his own. But, he probably had friends that helped in what he did. Just like friends who might dare one to go into a house that's supposed to be haunted. Meanwhile, they stay far back and don't dare go themselves. Am I making sense?

 

[nanandjim]

This could be true if the boy was doing this all on his own. But, he probably had friends that helped in what he did. Just like friends who might dare one to go into a house that's supposed to be haunted. Meanwhile, they stay far back and don't dare go themselves. Am I making sense?

I agree. If this man could have somehow made this boy feel that he was a leader and the other boys would follow his lead, he may have gotten buy-in from the boy to help him with his lawn--especially if he were willing to pay him for the help.

I just think if the man would have appealed to this boy's ego as well as paying him for his help, the boy may have ended up getting to know the man as a person and befriended him instead of aggravating him.

In most cases, adults are more mature than teenagers and should try to figure out a solution.

My father had a similar situation when he was alive. The neighborhood kids would climb his fence and break it down. My father talked to one of the neighborhood boys and explained why he didn't want him to jump the fence. He said that the boy was welcome in his yard at any time but politely asked if he would use the gate. The boy's older brother told the boy to cuss out my father and to tell him to off. The younger boy didn't listen. In fact, I believe the problem was resolved.

My father, I believe, ended up befriending both of the boys. It's all in how you handle the situation.

Now, if these kids were thugs or gang members, it might not work. However, if they were ordinary, run-of-the-mill neighborhood smart-alecs, a kinder, gentler approach may have worked.

 

[Labrat]

There really hasn't been enough information released to make any conclusions, but I would like to point out that maybe he stopped calling the police because nothing was done when he did.

When I was in my teens, my family was harassed by another family in the neighborhood, and although we called the police many times, NOTHING was done. Even when there was property damage, the kids parents would tell the police they were home when it happened. The police would come back and say, Can you prove they did it? Well, if they won't take your word for it, what can you do? We stopped calling too.

This family harassed another neighborhood family until the wife had a nervous breakdown. Then when the husband ran out of the house, and grabbed and shook one of the kids because he caught them piling cat poo on the front step, They took him to court for assualt. They sold their house and moved after that- just couldn't take it any more.

It is very sad the boy is dead, and of course there is no excuse for that, but I suspect there is more here than grass. Constant harassment can make you lose your perspective.

 

[Amraann]

Nanandjim... I think that many sane rational adults would do exactly that and befriend the kid..

I don't think we are talking about someone rational. In a previous post I said that I feel this kid and his parents attributed to his death.
IN noway did that mean that I felt this old man was right or that it lessoned his guilt.
I don't think the parents are criminally liable nor do I think they should feel humilated.
SOmeone posted that its possible the harrassment was all in this mans head.
That is a possible scenario as is the notion that some age related illnesses display symptoms of violence.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello Yakwoman,

You wrote:
>>Wrinkles - you said it!<<

I guess that there are a few of us who agree that this tragedy could have very easily been avoided. I just don't think this old man was a time bomb just looking for the right time to crack (although I could be proven wrong). I think that that the old man was pushed into time bomb status, and that the builder of the timebomb was continuously pushing to see when he could get the timebomb to crack. I feel that, based on the little we know, that the builder of the time bomb was not going to quit until he made sure that the bomb exploded.

Possible phone call scenario...

Old man: "ring ring" "Your boy walked on my yard."

Parents: "Thank you for calling, we'll be happy to deal with this immediately. Is it alright if we send our son over to apologize? We're so sorry, we hadn't had time to explain to him about trespassing. We apologize too. Please call us if this occurs even one more time, we want to support you completely. By the way, it is nice to meet you, please let us know if there is anything we can do for you."

[Parents to child: "Son, we'll go with you, we walk down the street to the driveway and walk up the walk way. This man works very hard on his yard, let's respect that. Just let him know that you are sorry, you didn't mean to disturb him and that you will not do it again." and then "Please son, let's respect our neighbor and make friends with him."

It doesn't matter "how fussy" the parents thought the old man was being, they could have told their son "No more, son - this man owns that property, you have a street to walk in and our driveway, please use them in respect of our neighbor. Son, we would defend you if the old man walked onto our property and tried to destroy your skateboard. In kindness, let's work together as neighbors defending each other's rights." Something like this would have diffused the situation...

Wrinkles

PS. Dreaming? Perhaps, but there is a best way to start.

 

[Amraann]

I do have to say that if his grass meant so much to him then he should have put up a fence.

I cannot concieve of any situation short of self defense that would "push" me to shoot someone. IMO it is probable that whatever the cause for his "snapping" it would have happend eventually maybe not over the grass or directed at that kid .. Maybe at the grocery store over a parking spot.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hiya Labrat,

Your point is well taken. We had some neighbors who were working their best to take us down, in fact they were working their best to overpower the whole neighborhood (5 wonderful caring families who looked out for one another.) Fortunately we all stuck together and all kept one another as cool as we could, but that which these people attempted to do to 5 other families was beyond acceptable. Their horrific behavior cost one neighbor 30 grand in civil court, LE said, "We're sorry this is a civil matter." Ahhh...well, all neighbors had specific rights (on documents), but in order to defend them we were forced to go to civil court - huge money none of us could really afford. Not everyone can take this type of beating, and not everyone can keep sane when pushed to the degree these people pushed us all. In fact, these people endangered the lives of several families, by their disruptiveness and infringements on personal rights. Didn't bother them at all...this was about their willfulness, their wants, despite the fact that many would think it was wrong... We were all able to keep on the side of the law, but it wasn't easy. These people were determined to show that "might makes right" and they almost got that back in return.

Wrinkles

 

[BhamMama]

I've read these all and I have to say, the old man sounded like a control freak. Regardless of how the child acted he was the adult and should have acted like one.

The old man reminded me of an old neighbor. I have 7 children and we had a fenced in yard where my children played. When a ball or what ever would go over the fence my children were instructed to go through the side gate onto his gravelled driveway to the side door and knock and ask if they could go get their toy. More times than not the answer was no! Not that they couldn't go get their toy or I couldn't go get their toy but that they shouldn't have been playing period so near his precious grass. He would go get it and throw it away. This wasn't something that happened often or on purpose. In the end I took it upon myself to go get it, yes without asking.

This was after he called the health department on me though. Seems my pecan tree was dropping pecans in his yard and he took it personal. He also cut down all my shrubs that adjoined but didn't touch his property. He cut his grass 2 times a week too! He petitioned the city to make me change the color of my house because he didn't like Salmon or I didn't paint it fast enough. When he thought my kids were being too loud he sprayed them with a water hose or yelled at them.

What if he'd had access to something else or could reach my child? I personally felt he was capable of doing harm to someone. I eventually put up a 7 foot bamboo fence on that side just to hide my kids from him.

Moral is, sometimes you live next to/near a nut! A nut is a nut no matter what you do.