OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#43

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FrescaandSouthernComfort

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I'm sorry Fresca, but would you please say again? Lol. I'm totally lost. TY!

During a trial, if the defense calls a witness to testify, the attorney for the opposing party, in
this case the prosecutor, would have the opportunity to cross examination the witness. The
witness must answer the questions, if the judge ruled against any objections. If the witness
still will not answer, he/she will be held in contempt. This will cause major problems in
the case for the witness as well as the defense. Pandora's Box can also be opened that reveals
things the defense did not want known,
 

Puzzles8

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My guess.....They came back because GW2 was sick and left Alaska abruptly, before their lease expired, so that's more reason for someone to stay behind and tie up loose ends, sell things, figure out the lease etc....
I thought the W4's were in AK from (roughly) 5/2017 to 5/2018? GGWII died while they were gone

August 21, 2017........He was 83.

We regret to say that George Washington Wagner Jr. passed away on 08/21/2017 and was 83 at the time. Before moving to George's last city of Lucasville, OH, George lived in Piketon OH. Sometimes George had gone by various nicknames including Geo W Wagner, Geo Wagner, George Washington Washingtonwagner and George Washington Wagner.

Birthday: 2/17/1934 - 8/21/2017
Are dates correct?
 

RAISINISBACK

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Cool Cats, please refer to the court entries for dates. IDK if GW was in Alaska or not (after his family left). He very well could have been, and only came back after the notice of hearing went out on 10/5. He would have had to come by air to have arrived by the 7th. But yes, he could have come back for custody issues. TY hope this makes sense!

10/11/2018
  • CERTIFIED MAIL # 9414 8149 0234 3537 0039 41 SERVED TO
    WAGNER, GEORGE
  • POSTAGE CHARGED
10/09/2018
  • COPY OF MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VISITATION RIGHTS AND UCCJEA
    AFFIDAVIT MAILED TO GEORGE WAGNER, IV BY CERTIFIED MAIL.
  • CERTIFIED MAIL ISSUED TO WAGNER, GEORGE
    CERTIFIED MAIL # 9414 8149 0234 3537 0039 41
10/05/2018
  • HEARING: 10/29/2018 AT 11:00 AM - MOTION
  • ASSIGNMENT NOTICE SENT
    S ANDREW STURGILL AND GEORGE WAGNER
09/28/2018
  • DEPOSIT - RECEIPT NO. 2181758 IN THE AMOUNT OF $ 100.00
09/27/2018
  • MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VISITATION RIGHTS, REQUEST FOR SERVICE
    FILED. (FD BY S. ANDREW STURGILL, ATTY FOR DEFENDANT)
  • PARENTING PROCEEDING AFFIDAVIT, REQUEST FOR SERVICE FILED.
    (FILED BY S. ANDREW STURGILL, ATTY FOR DEFENDANT)
I am not sure if you can follow this link but here is where the papers were delivered to George in South Webster.


through USPS

Tracking Number: 9414814902343537003941
On Time
Expected Delivery on

Thursday 11 October 2018
See Product Information

Status
Delivered
October 11, 2018 at 11:02 am

Delivered

SOUTH WEBSTER, OH 45682

Delivered
Return Receipt Electronic
Tracking History
Product Information
 

Cool Cats

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I thought the W4's were in AK from (roughly) 5/2017 to 5/2018? GGWII died while they were gone

August 21, 2017........He was 83.

We regret to say that George Washington Wagner Jr. passed away on 08/21/2017 and was 83 at the time. Before moving to George's last city of Lucasville, OH, George lived in Piketon OH. Sometimes George had gone by various nicknames including Geo W Wagner, Geo Wagner, George Washington Washingtonwagner and George Washington Wagner.

Birthday: 2/17/1934 - 8/21/2017
Are dates correct?

Well that was a big mistake on my part! Of course he passed in 2017 not 2018! Getting the dates mixed up! I deleted that post thankx for pointing that out!

Why on earth would they move to Alaska when he's sick? Or maybe he wasn't sick yet. We don't even know if any of them came back when he passed.
 

KentuckyMama

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Somewhere in the last thread there were a couple questions about the autopsy on CRsr, possibly about "mesh" and if he had recently had surgery. I'm not a doctor or nurse, but I do have 25+ years' experience as a medical transcriptionist.

In looking at the final autopsy redacted document, I don't see a reference to "mesh". On page 16 (which corresponds to page 5 of 8 of CRsr's individual autopsy), though, under the "serous cavities" heading it states, "Several blue surgical sutures are identified..." Surgical mesh and surgical sutures aren't the same thing, but the poster may not have known that. Mesh is used to reinforce tissue before the sutures are put in to close an opening—like in a hernia operation.

At the end of the same paragraph it also states, "The intestines...are not oriented normally." This was also questioned in the last thread. It is my opinion that the blue sutures and the intestines not oriented normally are explained by info on the following page (page 17). Under the gastrointestinal tract heading it states, "The appendix is not identified."

My opinion is that there is no mesh involved (possibly confused with the "blue sutures"??). I believe the intestines not being oriented properly are because they were moved out of the way in order to perform an appendectomy at some point. This might have been recent--but also could have been anytime in the past, even many years. My opinion is that the "blue suture material" was used to tie off the appendiceal stump when the appendix was removed. It is colored blue so that it is more easily visible in the abdominal cavity, because this type of suture is not "dissolvable" and is not removed at a later point like sutures in the skin commonly are—it is left in place permanently.

If you G***** the phrase "blue suture material", the first thing you'll see is info on a product called P*****e (not sure I can give the trade name here) that is commonly dyed blue and is used in abdominal surgeries.

Just my opinion, of course. Sorry this is so long. I also have an opinion about the question from the last thread about HMR's autopsy report but will post that another time since this is so long.

I would love to hear your opinions on the autopsies. There was so much redacted that it's hard to get much info. Of course, that's the point. Any info to help me understand the part that isn't redacted would be so very appreciated!
 

Dudly

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Very intriguing question. This case (below) seems to show that for a co-defendant to testify favorably for another co-defendant, they have to be severed from the case and have a separate trial.

Issue 1: Whether the trial court erred in denying Mr. Rollerson’s motion to sever his trial from Ms. Burns’s trial in order to be able to call her as a witness to testify he was not involved in the Elvans Road Incident?

Holding: Yes. While a trial court has discretion whether to grant a motion to sever, a court must grant such a motion if a defendant can show there will be “manifest prejudice” from being tried jointly. Under Jackson v. United States, 329 A.2d 782 (D.C. 1974), when a defendant wants to sever a trial from a co-defendant in order to have that person testify in his defense, the court should grant the motion if it has been established that the co-defendant is 1) likely to testify and 2) the testimony will be “substantially exculpatory.”
A Court Should Grant A Motion To Sever If A Co-Defendant Would Provide “Officially Exculpatory” Testimony
Exculpatory evidence
Exculpatory evidence is evidence favorable to the defendant in a criminal trial that exonerates or tends to exonerate the defendant of guilt. It is the opposite of inculpatory evidence, which tends to prove guilt.

WAGNER TRIALS
The Wagner's are not co-defendants ( I think but can't know for sure) because they are all having separate trials.
It's my understanding that any one of them could testify for the other. But we should get a Websleuth Attorney on here to see what they think about the Wags testifying FAVORABLY for each other at each other's trials.
......I'm not an attorney and am only giving my impressions and opinions.....

What about co-conspirators and not co-defendants?
 

Dudly

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A John Doe indictment is basically indicting an unknown person's DNA sample so if you find the person (John Doe) later on, the statute of limitations won't have run out. It's about circumventing the statute of limitations.

But of course through the years some John D's would have passed away. Have any of these dead John D's been linked to their old DNA samples? Anything's possible.

There doesn't need to be a DNA sample for a John Doe to be named in a case. In a class action suit, I have seen up to 99 John Does included. They don't have DNA for 99 people...
 

Dudly

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Somewhere in the last thread there were a couple questions about the autopsy on CRsr, possibly about "mesh" and if he had recently had surgery. I'm not a doctor or nurse, but I do have 25+ years' experience as a medical transcriptionist.

In looking at the final autopsy redacted document, I don't see a reference to "mesh". On page 16 (which corresponds to page 5 of 8 of CRsr's individual autopsy), though, under the "serous cavities" heading it states, "Several blue surgical sutures are identified..." Surgical mesh and surgical sutures aren't the same thing, but the poster may not have known that. Mesh is used to reinforce tissue before the sutures are put in to close an opening—like in a hernia operation.

At the end of the same paragraph it also states, "The intestines...are not oriented normally." This was also questioned in the last thread. It is my opinion that the blue sutures and the intestines not oriented normally are explained by info on the following page (page 17). Under the gastrointestinal tract heading it states, "The appendix is not identified."

My opinion is that there is no mesh involved (possibly confused with the "blue sutures"??). I believe the intestines not being oriented properly are because they were moved out of the way in order to perform an appendectomy at some point. This might have been recent--but also could have been anytime in the past, even many years. My opinion is that the "blue suture material" was used to tie off the appendiceal stump when the appendix was removed. It is colored blue so that it is more easily visible in the abdominal cavity, because this type of suture is not "dissolvable" and is not removed at a later point like sutures in the skin commonly are—it is left in place permanently.

If you G***** the phrase "blue suture material", the first thing you'll see is info on a product called P*****e (not sure I can give the trade name here) that is commonly dyed blue and is used in abdominal surgeries.

Just my opinion, of course. Sorry this is so long. I also have an opinion about the question from the last thread about HMR's autopsy report but will post that another time since this is so long.

Thank you. that makes sense and was very informational...
 

Loomis124

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Thankx. We've been discussing this and it's better to have the facts posted. You remind me how important it is to do so! Thankx for delving into this!

The good news is GW4 was easily arrested as opposed to being arrested in Alaska---not a big deal but still more convenient. And the amended custody petition was discharged, good news because I hope that means that TB gets to see her son all she wants. (We don't know if she has custody now. Anyway, where the 2 children are residing now should rightfully remain private.)

Thoughts...Tabitha filed custody papers 9/27. Wouldn't she think her son was in Ohio, rather than Alaska?

And if GWIV stayed in AK, did he keep his son there, too? I can't believe AW would allow that.

IF he did stay, could it have been so if the others got arrested in Ohio, he would be free to take revenge?

The custody forms filed by the Mother indicated "no previous custody documents (stemming from the divorce) were on file" in the court....same as was stated with Sophia - HR and JW.

IDK. My mind is reeling.
 

Cool Cats

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There doesn't need to be a DNA sample for a John Doe to be named in a case. In a class action suit, I have seen up to 99 John Does included. They don't have DNA for 99 people...

The poster asked what I thought about the John Doe and I said that was one of my theories.

I know that a John Doe in an indictment can mean DNA, but I am not familiar with other reasons John Doe is used.

In a class action law suit you have to put John Doe because there could be more defendants to sue down the road. EDIT CHANGED TO DEFENDANTS.

So we have 2 reasons to use John Doe in an indictment. Does anyone else know why it's used?
 
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Loomis124

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On this line of thinking I'd like to add a possible, jmo, reason why the silencer part was found on the farm where the W's used to live as opposed to using any infinite number of permanent places or ways to dispose of the item where it would never be found. ... because the killer didn't want to dispose of it forever... he wanted to keep the silencer part as a remembrance of his exciting night of killing the R's. Jmo.... but it only tells me that someone had a wonderful and exhilarating time that night and, so much so, he couldn't follow through on the plan to get rid of all the evidence as planned. A bad emotional decision imo. He made it by hand... he tested it... he used it... it would be easy to fix... he wanted to keep it. ALL Jmo. The W's owned a lot of land and there's no way to know how easy or hard that well is to find. I'm guessing it fits the description; "If you didn't know where it was, you'd never find it." It could have been sealed up and covered long ago.
Entire comment is speculation.

This brings a question to mind: Does anyone know if well locations are required to be disclosed on real estate transactions and/or auditors records? If not, where does the liability lie if a child or someone falls in and dies in one on your property?
 

Dudly

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The poster asked what I thought about the John Doe and I said that was one of my theories.

I know that a John Doe in an indictment can mean DNA, but I am not familiar with other reasons John Doe is used.

In a class action law suit you have to put John Doe because there could be more plaintiffs out there who might come forward.

So we have 2 reasons to use John Doe in an indictment. Does anyone else know why it's used?

It is because there could be other defendants added if found not other plaintiffs.
 

Gracie55

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I have often thought that they expected Hanna's boyfriend CH to be with her that night. I am sure that Jake would have happily taken him out too.

JMO
Could also be KR2, who was in a totally unpredictable spot that night as an "out of the blue" bbsitting gig. She was supposed to be close with her cousin and KR, KR2s dad, died.
 

Dudly

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This brings a question to mind: Does anyone know if well locations are required to be disclosed on real estate transactions and/or auditors records? If not, where does the liability lie if a child or someone falls in and dies in one on your property?

I'm not sure, but I think it was a sketch the health department had on record that showed an outline of the home and location of the septic tanks and well....
 

Cool Cats

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It is because there could be other defendants added if found not other plaintiffs.
THankx, but I do know that a plaintiff in a civil suit can remain anonymous, for the sake of their privacy, and file the suit under John Doe.

But Thankx for pointing this out. I went back and edited my post to reflect that the defendants can be listed as a John Doe.
 
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Loomis124

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During a trial, if the defense calls a witness to testify, the attorney for the opposing party, in
this case the prosecutor, would have the opportunity to cross examination the witness. The
witness must answer the questions, if the judge ruled against any objections. If the witness
still will not answer, he/she will be held in contempt. This will cause major problems in
the case for the witness as well as the defense. Pandora's Box can also be opened that reveals
things the defense did not want known,

Thank you! I think I understand now. So this rule still stands, even if the witness is a co-defendent and both are being tried in murder DP cases. IIUC, no defense attorney would allow this (AW to testify on behalf of JW, etc., as the original question here.)

However, as we have seen in one of these cases, the attorney did actually bring up the fact that HE might want to talk to other codefendants in this case. I can't remember which one it was and if it was an actual motion or not. Hope you understand. I don't know legal talk, but sure wish I did!

Than you so much!
 

Loomis124

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I thought the W4's were in AK from (roughly) 5/2017 to 5/2018? GGWII died while they were gone

August 21, 2017........He was 83.

We regret to say that George Washington Wagner Jr. passed away on 08/21/2017 and was 83 at the time. Before moving to George's last city of Lucasville, OH, George lived in Piketon OH. Sometimes George had gone by various nicknames including Geo W Wagner, Geo Wagner, George Washington Washingtonwagner and George Washington Wagner.

Birthday: 2/17/1934 - 8/21/2017


Are dates correct?

JW got a speeding ticket in Alaska in Jan 2018. And in the arrest press conference, Dewine stated Spring. A neighbor in Alaska says May. See two articles below.

Ohio family charged in Rhoden murders kept low profile in Alaska, neighbor says

Family accused of Ohio massacre spent months living quietly in an Alaska mobile home
 

Cool Cats

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Thoughts...Tabitha filed custody papers 9/27. Wouldn't she think her son was in Ohio, rather than Alaska?

And if GWIV stayed in AK, did he keep his son there, too? I can't believe AW would allow that.

IF he did stay, could it have been so if the others got arrested in Ohio, he would be free to take revenge?

The custody forms filed by the Mother indicated "no previous custody documents (stemming from the divorce) were on file" in the court....same as was stated with Sophia - HR and JW.

IDK. My mind is reeling.

Thankx for asking, my thoughts on this
are:
It is likely TB found out the Wags had moved back and thus this was a good time to amend the custody agreement, to take advantage of them being back. She would have known if George was back or not, she would have had to list his address for him to even get served at all.

No I don't believe Angela would "allow" her grandson to stay up in Alaska without her. She basically took on the mother role for the 2 grandkids and likely took care of them while the "boys" worked.

If GW4 did stay in Alaska I think it was for work and/or tying up loose ends for the family.
I don't think it was for revenge. He would actually need to be in Ohio to take revenge on the AG, Sheriff and Special Agent.
 
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