OH - Pike County: 8 People From One Family Dead As Police Hunt For Killer(s) #35 *Arrests*

[OsoTejano]

Yes, the prisons are full of people who thought they were smarter than LE. With DNA analysis, social media and high tech investigation tools, it's become a lot more difficult for perps to get away with murder.

I'll grant there may be more surprises ahead as the defense teams go through discovery and interview their clients. The John Doe reference in the indictments is interesting, too. Overall, though, it sounds like PCSO and BCI have a lot of solid evidence against the W's. As you say, those were pretty extensive indictments.

Hopefully the evidence is solid. It needs to be as this is likely a highly circumstantial case with a lot of small pieces of evidence that will need to be threaded together to prove these charges beyond a reasonable doubt. From all appearances, this looks like it was a very professional investigation. It will be interesting how these cases unfold over the coming year or so.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

They took something they wanted and expected to not get into trouble for it. It's not a big leap when talking about a custody case. They wanted custody. They got it. They even tried to demand mandatory visitation for a child they weren't related to.

Who are you?

 

[rsd1200]

I didn’t mean country folk have the stuff to commit unthinkable acts. Country folk in the Wagner’s area like their toys.

I'm from the region, and have lived, and worked, in the Appalachian region, my entire life, and, we may like our toys but those are generally two and four wheel ones, or anything that might float. I'd not consider a fully automatic firearm a toy. Firearms in general, are not toys, fwiw.

One can't just buy a fully auto firearm off the shelf, either, unless it is over 30 years old, and folks would tend to remember who had $15k to make that purchase. So lets go with a new one, well, they'd have to fill out a form, submit prints, and wait several months for ATF approval, or buy it from the black market. AW is a felon so she's wasn't permitted to even own a firearm, period. So, if they had them, where did they get them? I'm leaning toward black market.

 

[rsd1200]

No actualy Canada never asked for it liokedat my custody oapers. They are concerned wth insurance. Ability to support yourself and criminal record. They don’t ask about custody.

Okay, I thought someone had said, when crossing the border with a child, the child's visa had to have both parent's signatures, if the child had two living parents. I have no clue were I got that now.

 

[RickshawFan]

There aren't many details in the indictments, but apparently there is evidence of them purchasing special shoes at Wal-Mart. Perhaps they were shoes they just wore that night, then threw away. If they left footprints at the crime scene, purchase records would have allowed LE to match the shoes with footprints. JMO.

Really dumb, buying crime stuff at Walmart. The tread could be matched to the ubiquitous shoes, the shoes to a specific customer, the receipt to a purchase date, the date to a security photo....Or, those casings catchers? All Walmart had to do was to enter casings catchers and cross match with a shoe purchase, maybe even by credit card number. Walmart probably even has an algorithm to scan the security tapes (to minimize employee theft). Facial recognition that they could match from a driver's license presented by LE? A few summer interns, and LE has their evidence.
The Arias trial made clear that Walmart is a great resource for irrefutable evidence.
The Ws could have gone to Job Lot or army surplus a few counties over and been much more discreet. I suppose Walmart is the closest and only department store in Pikeville, so they only thought to go there? All 6 of them had the same idea? Bwahahaha!

 

[OsoTejano]

I’ve been analyzing the indictments... maybe a bit too much so and found specification 4 of the aggravated murder charges interesting. That’s basically killing someone in order to avoid prosecution for another crime.

That along with the sex offense on count 23 of JW’s indictments makes me wonder. Could there have been a threat of CR1, DR, or HMR making a criminal complaint.
I could see this scenario during a contentious custody dispute. Especially if they were being bullied by the Ws.

 

[almond]

That was Klink who found many things interesting. Shultz used to say I know nothing.

Thank you, Pepper!

 

[rsd1200]

Really dumb, buying crime stuff at Walmart. The tread could be matched to the ubiquitous shoes, the shoes to a specific customer, the receipt to a purchase date, the date to a security photo....They probably even have an algorithm to scan the security tapes (to minimize employee theft). A few summer interns, and LE has their evidence.
The Arias trial made clear that Walmart is a great resource for irrefutable evidence.
The Ws could have gone to Job Lot or army surplus a few counties over and been much more discreet. I suppose Walmart is the closest and only department store in Pikeville, so they only thought to go there? All 6 of them had the same idea? Bwahahaha!

Walmart is the KING of surveillance! Someone will get caught around here, trying to shoplift, in the local Walmart and Walmart will issue a BAN on them, in ALL stores! Don't you think they won't enforce it either! They have the little eyes in the sky and aisle minders. They know us, folks, they know us. Facial recognition is a thang.

 

[Satchie]

Okay, I thought someone had said, when crossing the border with a child, the child's visa had to have both parent's signatures, if the child had two living parents. I have no clue were I got that now.

It's in the regulations. Minor children travelling to Canada - Canada.ca

Now, maybe there are situations when officials don't check for authorization documents, the way they should.

 

[Betty P]

Okay, I thought someone had said, when crossing the border with a child, the child's visa had to have both parent's signatures, if the child had two living parents. I have no clue were I got that now.

IIRC, JW had full legal custody at the time he traveled to Canada with S. All he would have needed was proof of US citizenship. He wouldn't have needed a forged signature from HMR at that time because she was deceased.

The W's forged the custody documents about 2 weeks before they murdered HMR and her family. Would they have made a forgery for moving to Canada if they knew they were going to kill HMR?

I get confused, too. Not sure why or what they were forging, but we'll find out.

 

[rsd1200]

I’ve been analyzing the indictments... maybe a bit too much so and found specification 4 of the aggravated murder charges interesting. That’s basically killing someone in order to avoid prosecution for another crime.

That along with the sex offense on count 23 of JW’s indictments makes me wonder. Could there have been a threat of CR1, DR, or HMR making a criminal complaint.
I could see this scenario during a contentious custody dispute. Especially if they were being bullied by the Ws.

Idk what, but I do think that the Rs had something over on the Ws from back in their "friendship" days. Maybe JW shared something with HMR. Then, after the break up, she told him to back off on any custody requests, b/c she had the goods on them and she'd told her family too. That's when the planning began. The reason I think this, is b/c prior to DR's move, the Ws could have done a simple phone call to the proper authorities, and there would have been a bust, and little S was living at a location very near a family grow op. It would not have gone well, even if it was only weed. It doesn't appear that they did that though. It appears that they went straight to plotting murder.

 

[IQuestion]

Why kill all those eight over custody. I am sure they discussed with other family members that lived on the same road the custody issue so why not kill them too?

Sadly, these people were NOT KILLED OVER A SIMPLE CUSTODY ISSUE. I think we have to look at the W's (who have had a lot of run-ins with the law: BigGIII possession of stolen property, AW stealing from her employer & accusations of drug use etc.) not only wanting the child, but also not wanting anyone to scrutinize their past.....And God Forbid, AW's youngest son have charges filed against him for impregnating a 15 year old!!! Additionally, I would have a problem handing over a two year old when "grandpa" shows up with scorpion tattoo
on his trigger finger, and other tattoos of questionable origins. ( Myland, that is probably a personal failing on my part or my upbringing ...but I do look at tattoos! And if it "ain't a butterfly or ladybug" I am usually leery.) With so many LE agencies involved, 2 1/2 years of investigating all angles....no one is making any mistakes.

 

[rsd1200]

IIRC, JW had full legal custody at the time he traveled to Canada with S. All he would have needed was proof of US citizenship. He wouldn't have needed a forged signature from HMR at that time because she was deceased.

The W's forged the custody documents about 2 weeks before they murdered HMR and her family. Would they have made a forgery for moving to Canada if they knew they were going to kill HMR?

I get confused, too. Not sure why or what they were forging, but we'll find out.

It was GW4 to whom I was referring, would need the forged sig of his ex., though JW had only temporary custody at the time of the crossing.

Jake Wagner was granted temporary custody of Sophia on May 4, 2016.

EDIT: No, he had full custody when they crossed. I'm getting confused now.

Court docs: Suspect filed for custody of child at heart of Pike County investigation days after slayings

 

[Betty P]

I’ve been analyzing the indictments... maybe a bit too much so and found specification 4 of the aggravated murder charges interesting. That’s basically killing someone in order to avoid prosecution for another crime.

That along with the sex offense on count 23 of JW’s indictments makes me wonder. Could there have been a threat of CR1, DR, or HMR making a criminal complaint.
I could see this scenario during a contentious custody dispute. Especially if they were being bullied by the Ws.

i've wondered this, too, but it wouldn't have been a secret to child services or the family court judge. They could look at HMR's age, JW's and Sophie's and done the math.

Since the document in question had a forged version of HMR's signature, perhaps it was a document alleging she was living in a bad environment or that she agreed to hand over custody to JW. The forged document doesn't have to make sense or have been believable. LE may only be using it as evidence that gaining full custody of Sophia was the W family's primary concern and a motive for killing the family.

 

[RickshawFan]

......AW is a felon so she's wasn't permitted to even own a firearm, period.....

She's a felon? What's that about?

 

[Satchie]

IIRC, JW had full legal custody at the time he traveled to Canada with S. All he would have needed was proof of US citizenship. He wouldn't have needed a forged signature from HMR at that time because she was deceased.

The W's forged the custody documents about 2 weeks before they murdered HMR and her family. Would they have made a forgery for moving to Canada if they knew they were going to kill HMR?

I get confused, too. Not sure why or what they were forging, but we'll find out.

He would have needed some sort of document to show border officials if they asked, since her mother wasn't with her. But it occurs to me, even to get her a passport he may have needed to supply documents about custody and the death of her mother. I agree that the forgery may relate to something else they were trying to pull off before the murders.

 

[almond]

i've wondered this, too, but it wouldn't have been a secret to child services or the family court judge. They could look at HMR's age, JW's and Sophie's and done the math.

Since the document in question had a forged version of HMR's signature, perhaps it was a document alleging she was living in a bad environment or that she agreed to hand over custody to JW. The forged document doesn't have to make sense or have been believable. LE may only be using it as evidence that gaining full custody of Sophia was the W family's primary concern and a motive for killing the family.[/Q

Betty, you're so right! JW couldn't file for custody, because he might be arrested. No matter if the W's had money to do so or not, or any other reasoning, he would be stupid to try.
So maybe the forgery was used on the R's before the murders? Claiming that Jake had custody?
I guess we'll find out. Yes.

 

[Vern]

What was found on October the 30th was the final piece of evidence need to put the Wagner's in jail, and the reason Kenneth was killed was the Wagner's was afraid he would kill them after what they did, why do you think they came in the middle of the night!

On October 30th, authorities recovered a silencer.

Exhaustive investigation leads to break in Pike County murder case

ike County Sheriff Charles Reader said the killers had made a mistake: They had left behind pieces of the equipment they used to build silencers. And, after 2½ years of investigation, the final break came Oct. 30: Authorities recovered a silencer. No one would say how or where, but Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said that final piece of evidence was taken to the lab to be processed. Those results came back Nov. 7.

Pieces of silencer found at t least 1 crime scene. And, a silencer recovered from a search somewhere on 30 October. Final lab test results come back on the silencer on 7 Nov. Back in front of grand jury with results of those tests … and - "voila!" - true bills.

IMO: Quite literally, the smoking silencer, vice the smoking gun. I'd wager a rum & coke that the silencer was recovered from a Wagner property, or place they controlled access to, and that said recovered silencer contained blood splatter evidence that linked via DNA to victim(s) and that materiels made in the production of this home-made silencer are a forensic match to materiels in the parts of the silencer recovered from whichever crime scene. Mistakes they did make indeed.

Does anyone know where any searches occurred on 30 October?

 

[rsd1200]

i've wondered this, too, but it wouldn't have been a secret to child services or the family court judge. They could look at HMR's age, JW's and Sophie's and done the math.

Since the document in question had a forged version of HMR's signature, perhaps it was a document alleging she was living in a bad environment or that she agreed to hand over custody to JW. The forged document doesn't have to make sense or have been believable. LE may only be using it as evidence that gaining full custody of Sophia was the W family's primary concern and a motive for killing the family.

BBM
In the grand scheme of things, I think this may be the case. It is also a good way to add addt'l charges onto the great grandmothers.

 

[Dudly]

Where did you find that info., Dudly, or is that your opinion?

That was my understanding from DeWine's news conference, that they bought the same kind of shoes that the Rhodens wore....