GUILTY OH - Two women & child killed, 13yo abducted, Apple Valley, 10 Nov 2010 #8

[Leila]

I don't know who was the intended target and why- perhaps the whole family. But I now believe that he WATCHED TH's house and PLANNED this out. He would have had to to know her BF's work schedule to know he'd be gone on a long shift. Even tho he did stay overnite somewhere else that fateful night, I think MH knew he'd have time to get in there and do his deed, and take control before BF potentially arrived home. He prolly didn't even care that he might arrive home, as he would have just dealt him the same as the rest. I think three people were fatefully spared death that night, Sarah, TH's ex-BF, and the DQ mgr.

I agree. I think MH spent some time watching the family and planning what he was going to do. I think He knew the schedules of each member of the household by observing their comings and goings.

At this point, I think this was a "thrill-kill" fueled by rage. It may have been triggered by the break-up with his ex girlfriend. I'm inclined to believe that Tina and her family were targeted based on the remoteness of the house and the close proximity to MH's parent's home. But, I also believe that Sarah was his ultimate target.

As we've seen with many of the news reports, there's been consistent misreporting. We know that a deputy did do a wellness check twice on Wednesday evening........once around 8:00pm and again at about 11:00pm, both times finding the lights on, Tina's pick-up in the driveway, and no response. This was mentioned by Sheriff Barber in one of his pressers and one of our members found it in the archives of the scanner. I'd add that deputy to the list of those who were spared.

 

[Leila]

(RSBM)

Snap, please, is there any way you can find a link to this changed information? I have not heard anything about Sarah having seen SS on Wednesday.

If it's true, it doesn't change anything much. It could mean that SS and TH were still alive when the kids got home, but could have been bound and helpless. Or, it could be that Sarah actually saw SS and TH deceased but held out hope that Kody was spared. Everything LE said the first few days indicated that they thought there was a chance that at least some of them were still alive. If Sarah had seen all three deceased, Sheriff Barber would not have believed otherwise. I'm so hoping that Sarah was not a witness to any of these killings.

Bless them all!

I'm inclined to think that Sarah was separated from the other three and didn't know their fate. At Sunday's presser, Sheriff Barber stated that they knew Sarah was in MH's house and were hopeful that the other three were there as well. When a reporter asked if the sheriff thought the other three were still alive, he stated that he wasn't aware of anyone being deceased. He was optimistic at that point.

I think that when Sarah was rescued and investigators were able to talk to her, she was able to tell them the sequence of events - did she and Kody came home to find MH there, or did he come to the house after she and Kody got home.

I think that Sarah was separated from the others early on and didn't witness her mother, brother, and Stephanie being murdered. If she did, she would have told the investigators right away that the others were dead. Sheriff Barber remained optimistic until Tuesday's presser when he talked about being hopeful that the others were alive, but being realistic, there was a possibility they were deceased. I think it's likely that Sarah was taken to MH's house, and left in the basement bound and gagged while he disposed of the bodies.

 

[Java]

Smooth -
Am bringing this post over from last page of last thread..

ABOVE BBM.. This is the 3rd time in these threads that I have seen this made reference to..."<modsnip>"

Can anyone point me to where this particular info came from? Am not questioning its validity and am assuming that this is in regards to the dismemberment{i.e. the last part about hearing the saw would indicate such}..

Am very curious to read about this info myself..TIA
--------

I believe it was Wed. late afternoon, many of us were buzzing back and fourth, Topix, news stories, FB, etc&#8230;
Trying to find some info on the search, etc&#8230;. because at that point the PC had been canceled for Thurs.
Until a &#8220;dramatic turn in the case&#8221; evolved. And we got a PC of the find Thurs afternoon.

BUT prior to any release of info on the find. Wed a Topix poster by the moniker of &#8220;Hopeful&#8221; posted that they were close to the family and had heard that Sarah had told LE <modsnip>.
It made me sick, this poor child would have to go through this horror. And another poster by the moniker of Catfish Billy, was saying to look in hollow trees.
Unfortunately so many trolls have come out (I don&#8217;t see how people can do that but..) on FB and else where, it was hopefully thought that this may be the case again, and these people were full of BS.
Many of us were thinking &#8220;How in the heck do you know THAT?&#8221;
Their posts have been removed but, there is a poster here on WS that copied the posts.

Truthfully, when I saw photos of that tree, the height, the opening, and the opening that LE had cut in the lower portion to remove the bodies, I knew the dismemberment was true. Again sick to my stomach.

This MH, is in a high class of psychopaths, dismemberment is a level all it&#8217;s own. Fortunately not a common, common event. It is not an easy thing to do, most especially X3. To be cold and calculating: It is very messy, and takes A LOT of hard work. It isn&#8217;t a 15 minute ordeal! Most people would not even imagine it, much less attempt it.

But thinking of little Sarah having to be there <modsnip>, just takes the cake for me. I am having a very hard time getting past that. It has really stuck me in the gut.
Unfortunately the Topix posts on Wed. have come to be a reality.

 

[Leila]

Smooth -
Am bringing this post over from last page of last thread..

ABOVE BBM.. This is the 3rd time in these threads that I have seen this made reference to..."the tub filling, draining and refilling"

Can anyone point me to where this particular info came from? Am not questioning its validity and am assuming that this is in regards to the dismemberment{i.e. the last part about hearing the saw would indicate such}..

Am very curious to read about this info myself..TIA
--------

I believe it was Wed. late afternoon, many of us were buzzing back and fourth, Topix, news stories, FB, etc…
Trying to find some info on the search, etc…. because at that point the PC had been canceled for Thurs.
Until a “dramatic turn in the case” evolved. And we got a PC of the find Thurs afternoon.

BUT prior to any release of info on the find. Wed a Topix poster by the moniker of “Hopeful” posted that they were close to the family and had heard that Sarah had told LE she could hear the tub filling & draining, and re filling and draining, and she could hear a saw.
It made me sick, this poor child would have to go through this horror. And another poster by the moniker of Catfish Billy, was saying to look in hollow trees.
Unfortunately so many trolls have come out (I don’t see how people can do that but..) on FB and else where, it was hopefully thought that this may be the case again, and these people were full of BS.
Many of us were thinking “How in the heck do you know THAT?”
Their posts have been removed but, there is a poster here on WS that copied the posts.

Truthfully, when I saw photos of that tree, the height, the opening, and the opening that LE had cut in the lower portion to remove the bodies, I knew the dismemberment was true. Again sick to my stomach.

This MH, is in a high class of psychopaths, dismemberment is a level all it’s own. Fortunately not a common, common event. It is not an easy thing to do, most especially X3. To be cold and calculating: It is very messy, and takes A LOT of hard work. It isn’t a 15 minute ordeal! Most people would not even imagine it, much less attempt it.

But thinking of little Sarah having to be there listening, just takes the cake for me. I am having a very hard time getting past that. It has really stuck me in the gut.
Unfortunately the Topix posts on Wed. have come to be a reality.

I copied the post from "Hopeful" and one other post from a person called "Concerned", who asked how credible this information is about the bathtub. I didn't copy the post by "Catfish Billy", as that evidently was posted after I copied the one from "Hopeful" and "Concerned."

 

[Java]

And I also believe that poor Sheriff Barber, has had to make statements as clearly as he possibly could under the circumstances, yet evading detailed answers.
Such as the clothes, I’m not sure the clothes were ON the bodies, possibly just WITH the bodies??
Were the bodies bound? He said “no” but with considerable hesitation, as if there was something else he wasn’t saying either.
But he wasn’t willing to get into detailed questioning, for obvious reasons. Much of it in respect to the investigation, and much to the respect of the families also.
Unfortunately having to leave a considerable amount of guessing and speculation, for those wanting clear cut answers.

Possibly in a way to answer , searchers that had found tarps, sweat pants, socks, etc…. Letting people know in his way they weren’t relative to the case. It items in question were with the find.

There is just no excuse for this MH. He is way out on another Planet! This guy should be fried.
As time goes past, more and more details will come to the surface, of the un imaginable evil that this man encompasses. I feel sure we haven’t heard our last “shocker” yet.

 

[Texas Mist]

I copied the post from "Hopeful" and one other post from a person called "Concerned", who asked how credible this information <modsnip: was>. I didn't copy the post by "Catfish Billy", as that evidently was posted after I copied the one from "Hopeful" and "Concerned."

I have a copy of Catfish Billy's post that's still up - it's quoted by another poster.

here's the link - post 119

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wbns/T73CJRH66IB46JCIU/p6

Really eerie how he was so right on with his idea about how creepy MH might hide a body.

 

[Cher352]

I agree, except I'm not 100% positive this all was planned out. Not knowing what went down and when, I'm not eliminating the possibility it was a rage event (something went wrong ... maybe involving one of the women ... that set him off and it spiraled from there). He could have known about that tree from previously camping there.

And I just wanted to add one other person who may have potentially been spared: the KCSO deputy who went out to do the wellness checks. Had he seen an open door, walked in, he could have easily been ambushed quickly (although not as easy of a target for MH as the others).

I'm still shaking inside when I think of this, and as hard as I try to distract myself from the thoughts, it isn't working so well. This happened literally 1.6 miles from me. I was home that day. My sense of safety is shattered, but my thoughts keep going back to these people, who also probably felt perfectly safe. And that little boy. Just can't get him out of my mind.

CKay, I feel for you I can't imagine what it must be like living so close. I am states away and this story has shaken my sense of safety too. I would probably be a basket case with that happening so close to me. Nothing but best wishes to you and all of your community, hopefully you all will begin healing soon.

But a reminder to all of us...Never let your guard down!

 

[Java]

I would of one day in the past say that cases like this are rare.
But in this day and time, they seem to be increasingly more frequent.
And in a higher degree of insanity, as well.

I believe this was well planed, I am a little surprised that MH cracked, I feel his Mother had much to do with convincing him in some way or another.

A psychopath will often fantasize of events like this for long periods of time before making them a reality.
I do not feel like this is MH&#8217;s first try at this either. Past events may not have been as dramatic but, I do not believe this is the first time he has killed.

There is a missing stepping stone somewhere in between the arson, and a triple homicide, kidnapping & dismemberment of 3 bodies. To much of a leap there, there was something in between. We just don&#8217;t know what it was, and he got away with it too! Possibly more than once! Giving him even greater confidence to pull something of this magnitude off like he did.

Psychopaths have the ability to imitate normalcy. Often getting to know their intended victims first.
Cold calculating, organized people. Often thinking everything will be just like they want it after their crime.
He would have Sarah, everyone else would be gone.
+ the ability for dismemberment = highest level of psychopath. And here we have MH!

A sociopath - Is indicative of rage killings, going postal, drive by shootings, shooting randomly at a party, things like that. But they have a lot of things in common with a psychopath.

 

[oh_gal]

I would of one day in the past say that cases like this are rare.
But in this day and time, they seem to be increasingly more frequent.
And in a higher degree of insanity, as well.

(respectfully snipped by me)

I tend to agree with you -- and I have to wonder (especially lately!) if shows like Criminal Minds give people "license" to do things like this, as well as the ideas of how to do it. Or maybe that's just giving them a very convenient excuse for why they do what they do, I don't know...

 

[Java]

I would of one day in the past say that cases like this are rare.
But in this day and time, they seem to be increasingly more frequent.
And in a higher degree of insanity, as well.

(respectfully snipped by me)

I tend to agree with you -- and I have to wonder (especially lately!) if shows like Criminal Minds give people "license" to do things like this, as well as the ideas of how to do it. Or maybe that's just giving them a very convenient excuse for why they do what they do, I don't know...

I'm not so sure with people like MH.
Most of the real whack jobs, have seemed to be readers rather than television watchers.
But I do believe that some of the TV content has a numbing effect, making things no one would ever dream of seem more ordinary.

 

[MCDRAW]

I have a copy of Catfish Billy's post that's still up - it's quoted by another poster.

here's the link - post 119

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wbns/T73CJRH66IB46JCIU/p6

Really eerie how he was so right on with his idea about how creepy MH might hide a body.

Do you think that catfish Billy helped Hoffman? Because that is too just too much of a coincidence.

 

[MCDRAW]

I agree, except I'm not 100% positive this all was planned out. Not knowing what went down and when, I'm not eliminating the possibility it was a rage event (something went wrong ... maybe involving one of the women ... that set him off and it spiraled from there). He could have known about that tree from previously camping there.

And I just wanted to add one other person who may have potentially been spared: the KCSO deputy who went out to do the wellness checks. Had he seen an open door, walked in, he could have easily been ambushed quickly (although not as easy of a target for MH as the others).

I'm still shaking inside when I think of this, and as hard as I try to distract myself from the thoughts, it isn't working so well. This happened literally 1.6 miles from me. I was home that day. My sense of safety is shattered, but my thoughts keep going back to these people, who also probably felt perfectly safe. And that little boy. Just can't get him out of my mind.

I believe he planned this. That you tube video showed the tree. The hole was 35 feet in the air, so I doubt he randomly found this tree, while looking to dispose of the bodies. And if you randomly pick a tree, would you be able to tell someone exactly where it is? I might could show them but I don't think I could tell. Of course, I'm not really a nature person, so one tree looks like another to me.

 

[Java]

Here is an interesting read if anyone cares to.
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

It fits MH to a tee, he is a blue blood psychopath. However all psychopaths are not killers.

It is just frightening, horrific, and un imaginable that a person like MH could just pop up any where, for any reason, at any time. We will always look for &#8220;Why?&#8221;

 

[Cazzie]

My only hope, at this point, is that all 4 (Tanner, too) died very quickly, whatever the method.

Please, please, let me have this one last hope.

 

[Java]

Do you think that catfish Billy helped Hoffman? Because that is too just too much of a coincidence.

Well, after the facts were known, it did raise a few eyebrows, including mine!
But even as much of a coincidence as it is, I would have to guess probably not.

I would lean towards MH working entirely on his own.

 

[Reannan]

I think it is safe to say that MH planned this out. LE has even made statements that he had been watching the family, so he probably knew of their routine. Exactly like Joseph Duncan did to the Groene family. He also purchased that tarp and garbage bags for the purpose of doing what he did. I am still very curious as to what happened that led LE to 'know' Sarah was in that horrible basement in MH's house. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that MH's Mother had gone over there on Saturday, and perhaps saw or heard something that tipped her off, and she made the phone call to LE. :waitasec: I feel so horrible for all of the survivors in this case - Sarah and her family, Stephanie and her family, LE and their families, the entire community that has watched this tragedy unfold in horror.

 

[KAE]

I would of one day in the past say that cases like this are rare.
But in this day and time, they seem to be increasingly more frequent.
And in a higher degree of insanity, as well.

I believe this was well planed, I am a little surprised that MH cracked, I feel his Mother had much to do with convincing him in some way or another.

A psychopath will often fantasize of events like this for long periods of time before making them a reality.
I do not feel like this is MH’s first try at this either. Past events may not have been as dramatic but, I do not believe this is the first time he has killed.

There is a missing stepping stone somewhere in between the arson, and a triple homicide, kidnapping & dismemberment of 3 bodies. To much of a leap there, there was something in between. We just don’t know what it was, and he got away with it too! Possibly more than once! Giving him even greater confidence to pull something of this magnitude off like he did.

Psychopaths have the ability to imitate normalcy. Often getting to know their intended victims first.
Cold calculating, organized people. Often thinking everything will be just like they want it after their crime.
He would have Sarah, everyone else would be gone.
+ the ability for dismemberment = highest level of psychopath. And here we have MH!

A sociopath - Is indicative of rage killings, going postal, drive by shootings, shooting randomly at a party, things like that. But they have a lot of things in common with a psychopath.

Noway had a post a while back in an earlier thread. There was a link to another homicide in the area that I found interesting.
I've been searching for Noway's post and can't seem to find it (I could be wrong about who posted it:waitasec. I remember adding the location and name to my map, so I simply googled them.
Here is one of the links I found:
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/09/12/22/davis-family-friends-searching-for-answers

Not sure if there's any connection, just throwing it out there FWIW.

 

[belimom]

Regarding the death penalty, I don't see how this is not an option any longer. I have read all the reports and speculations - that no formal deal was worked out but that the DP was probably discussed with MH as a way to encourage him to cooperate. Considering the heinous nature of this crime, I don't think for one second that LE took it formally off the table. The people of Mt Vernon and Ohio (and everywhere) would be really PO'd. I agree that those bodies would not have been found anytime soon w/o his help, and having the bodies not only gives the family closure but also provides solid evidence of their murders. But for some reason I still don't believe that any formal deals regarding the DP were worked out. Not so soon - I don't believe LE had exhausted their search and reached that level of desperation yet.

I feel like I'm rambling - it's just that after having a night's sleep and then revisiting the case this morning with the perspective of having had a break, this "enormously and shockingly evil" (<- def. of heinous) deserves nothing less than the death penalty. Nothing... well, I can think of a few ways, but not legal. :furious:

 

[CKay]

Noway had a post a while back in an earlier thread. There was a link to another homicide in the area that I found interesting.
I've been searching for Noway's post and can't seem to find it (I could be wrong about who posted it:waitasec. I remember adding the location and name to my map, so I simply googled them.
Here is one of the links I found:
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/09/12/22/davis-family-friends-searching-for-answers

Not sure if there's any connection, just throwing it out there FWIW.

That story was very shocking also, and I have been discounting a connection in my own mind, because of the use of a gun. But re-reading that article today, one detail makes me wonder (for the first time) if he might be connected: her truck was also missing and not located until later. Her house was remote also.

I'm sure Sheriff Barber and the detectives have considered this. They have caught heat for not solving it.

ETA: Another link to the story (with other links from there) http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/01/06/homicide-investigation-continues

While talking to my brother (who also lives in the area), he wondered about many 'suspicious' fires in the area the past few years being connected. I don't have specifics, and my head is spinning too much ATM to even go there right now. But the Jean Davis unsolved murder has me rattled, and they investigated if her murder was connected to many burglaries in her area.

 

[Reannan]

I don't care if LE did offer to take the DP off the table. IMHO, they can put it right back on the table. They don't owe MH anything and don't have to stick by "their word" if they told him that. I say screw him. Give him his trail that is justified under our laws and constitution, and then remove him from this world.