OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

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Yes, I got the minister confused with LaTurner several posts back. I don't buy that story. Like ... at all.
 
missgulfsouth said:
I've been wondering about something.

WHY would GLH admit to the kidnapping, brutal rape, and attempted murder of two pregnant women ... and deny murdering the Girl Scouts?
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Couple of reasons I can think of offhand:

1 Hart's kidnap & rape victims survived the attack and were able to identify him and his car. IIRC, other patrons of the Fondalite nightclub were also able to ID him. There was also evidence of premeditation as Hart had gathered together a tool kit and had lined the trunk of is car with newspapers. Given the evidence, he likely accepted a plea deal. He did end up serving only 2 years for the horrible crime.

According to the news article at this link

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/HART_S_HISTORY.html

Hart planned to plead not guilty right up until the day his trial began. His lawyer asked for a brief delay, then brought him into court with a change of plea. Sounds like his attorney talked him into it and it did have the desired result of a short sentence.



2 Hart had a very expensive, highly skilled legal defense team for the trial of the Camp Scott Murders. A legal defense fund was created for Hart. It raised thousands of dollars to help pay for his defense.

Hart's original attorney for the Girl Scout murder case was Larry Oliver, a Cherokee from Tulsa. He withdrew from the case when the more expensive attorneys were hired. He later said that he was suspicious of Hart and felt he wasn't the kind of person you trusted with your granddaugher.

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...&q=gene leroy hart legal defense fund&f=false

It's not surprising these attorneys agreed with Hart when he said he wanted to plead "not guilty" per his previous crimes. There were no eyewitnesses this time.
 
Betty P said:
Couple of reasons I can think of offhand:

1 Hart's kidnap & rape victims survived the attack and were able to identify him and his car. IIRC, other patrons of the Fondalite nightclub were also able to ID him. There was also evidence of premeditation as Hart had gathered together a tool kit and had lined the trunk of is car with newspapers. Given the evidence, he likely accepted a plea deal. He did end up serving only 2 years for the horrible crime.

According to the news article at this link

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/HART_S_HISTORY.html

Hart planned to plead not guilty right up until the day his trial began. His lawyer asked for a brief delay, then brought him into court with a change of plea. Sounds like his attorney talked him into it and it did have the desired result of a short sentence.



2 Hart had a very expensive, highly skilled legal defense team for the trial of the Camp Scott Murders. A legal defense fund was created for Hart. It raised thousands of dollars to help pay for his defense.

Hart's original attorney for the Girl Scout murder case was Larry Oliver, a Cherokee from Tulsa. He withdrew from the case when the more expensive attorneys were hired. He later said that he was suspicious of Hart and felt he wasn't the kind of person you trusted with your granddaugher.

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...&q=gene leroy hart legal defense fund&f=false

It's not surprising these attorneys agreed with Hart when he said he wanted to plead "not guilty" per his previous crimes. There were no eyewitnesses this time.
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A-ha! That makes perfect sense... thank you for explaining!
 
missgulfsouth said:
A-ha! That makes perfect sense... thank you for explaining!
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TBH, Hart didn't plan to leave witnesses when he raped the two women from Tulsa. According to SCFTC book and the articles at the link above, Hart used over 100 yds. of "friction tape" to bind the women, including completely wrapping their heads in the tape. He left them there to die from suffocation. Fortunately, one of them was able to loosen the tape and free herself and her friend, then went for help.
 
What do you think the guttural moans were about? The two Tulsa women said Hart made those same noises.
 
missgulfsouth said:
What do you think the guttural moans were about? The two Tulsa women said Hart made those same noises.
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Don't know. Just some quirk he had, a noise he liked to make when he was getting aroused and thinking about sexually assaulting and killing someone?
 
Betty P said:
Don't know. Just some quirk he had, a noise he liked to make when he was getting aroused and thinking about sexually assaulting and killing someone?
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Oh that's nasty! I wondered if it was a sound he made to try to be extra creepy ... or maybe some Native American chant. I guess I don't know what guttural moans sound like. It just sounds so psychotic.
 
missgulfsouth said:
What do you think the guttural moans were about? The two Tulsa women said Hart made those same noises.
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Moans, droning, lament -- wordless chants inviting ritual transformance: forgiveness, sorrow, power, bliss. An expression of ceremony, a wordless plea.

Maybe.
 
wfgodot said:
Moans, droning, lament -- wordless chants inviting ritual transformance: forgiveness, sorrow, power, bliss. An expression of ceremony, a wordless plea.

Maybe.
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Heard prior to the murders. Asking forgiveness in advance? Or for power to commit them? Shudder either way. I imagine the sound must have been very frightening to the girls.
 
I liked Stevens as a suspect, he matched the description some gave of a man spotted in the camp. Bloody boots. Friend of GLH. Rapist .......

But I never like jailhouse confessions and convicts as informants or witnesses. Too many shady characters woven throughout this case are another reason I think the jury struggled to convict.
 
missgulfsouth said:
Oh that's nasty! I wondered if it was a sound he made to try to be extra creepy ... or maybe some Native American chant. I guess I don't know what guttural moans sound like. It just sounds so psychotic.
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One of the Kiowa camp counselors, CW, said it sounded like a bullfrog or fog horn. She thought it was an animal, so went back to the tent. When she shined her flashlight in that direction, it stopped. When she turned and walked away, it started again. Creepy. Had I been in her position, I probably would have done the same, though. In retrospect, who would think a creepy bullfrog noise in middle of the woods at night would be a killer playing some game before he murdered 3 little girls?
 
Betty P said:
One of the Kiowa camp counselors, CW, said it sounded like a bullfrog or fog horn. She thought it was an animal, so went back to the tent. When she shined her flashlight in that direction, it stopped. When she turned and walked away, it started again. Creepy. Had I been in her position, I probably would have done the same, though. In retrospect, who would think a creepy bullfrog noise in middle of the woods at night would be a killer playing some game before he murdered 3 little girls?
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And she had been to Camp Scott for years by that point. Surely she knew animal sounds in those woods. She said it was unlike anything she ever heard before. How does a person even make a sound like bullfrog or foghorn? It's just so creepy!
 
I just listened to a bullfrog on YouTube, imagining a man making that sound in the woods. Nope nope nope.
 
zencompass said:
What did Larry Dry, who escaped from jail with Gene Leroy Hart, know?

Larry Dry said that he hid out with Gene Leroy Hart after their escape:

http://www.nytimes.com/1978/06/17/a...re-whether-he-killed-girl-scouts-end-for.html
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Interesting you should ask. I've just been reading his pre-trial testimony. First page of the transcript for that day gives you the page number where his testimony begins. I'm on p. 697 right now


http://girlscoutmurders.com/PreTrialVolume4.pdf

Summary of what I've read so far:

Dry was in Mayes county jail with Hart in 1973. They broke out together and he went on the run with GLH.

While on the run, they lived for a while in the cave area south of Locust Grove & the GS Camp

He knew who GLH hung out with in the area. There were family and friends who gave them meals, let them hang out in their homes

They sometimes hiked up to Camp Scott from the cave. The cave was located near the ruins (and a cellar) of a home where GLH lived when he was a boy.

Larry Dry was back in jail in 1977, at the time of the Camp Scott murders. He remained there for a while after. While in jail, in August, Oct and Nov of 1977, he received 3 letters from someone he believed was GLH (they weren't signed, but had info only GLH would know). The letters threatened his wife and children if he gave any info about GLH to LE or prosecutors. Letters were postmarked from Sallisaw, OK.


As I'm reading these pre-trial transcripts, there's as much, if not more information than is in the SCFTC book. Anyone really interested in the case should read them. You'll really learn a lot of the details about evidence, activity, who is who, etc.



He also told of a time in 1973 when they were hanging out near Spring Creek (creek ran near their hideout, also joined to Snake Creek, where Camp Scott was located). It was early fall and they were watching some kids playing in the water. GLH started talking in a sexual way about a girl (about age 13) who was playing in the water. He said he was going to rape her, but Dry pulled a gun on him to stop him

Dry said they used to break into homes in the area to steal food, etc. He said GLH would often take eyeglasses that he found. He said GLH was "night blind", meaning he couldn't see well in the dark without his glasses. He had his own glasses, but would sometimes lose them, hence stealing of other peoples.

He said he and GLH only stayed in the cave for a day or two at a time, not for long stretches. They would go to the homes of GLH family and friends to shower, eat and sleep over most of the time. One relative who put them up a lot was Annie Ballou.

The times Dry & Hart went to GS camp was not during the time campers were there. They went when it wasn't being used to steal food, etc. (Camp Scott Ranger was on the premises all the time, but buildings were spread out. He saw evidence of some burglary in the past, but not a whole lot. Someone taking canned goods, flour, etc.)
 
Thank you Betty P for all of this information! Greatly appreciated!
 
I would recommend the following news article.

There is a video interview with Gene Leroy Hart and I found it fascinating.

Once when the reporter asks Hart why he wouldn't answer a question - Hart's reply was that it was "inane".

Not sure whether you will agree with me or not - I found the interview with Hart quite insightful - was not what I expected.

http://ktul.com/news/local/the-girl-scout-murders-oklahomas-greatest-unsolved-crime
 
missgulfsouth said:
I just listened to a bullfrog on YouTube, imagining a man making that sound in the woods. Nope nope nope.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're loud, very deep bass. It can sound like a man's voice.

[video=youtube;wbXItUDliuo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbXItUDliuo[/video]

I recall camping by a river one night, many years ago and awaking to this sound

[video=youtube;pxo8X5uIWRE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxo8X5uIWRE[/video]

Birds, especially owls, can make a lot of strange night time noises, too. Same with raccoons, possums, etc. I'm sure they were used to hearing a lot of noises, but GLH was apparently on another level. It would have creeped me out having it be so close. IIRC, Carla said she walked over near the fence line and heard it several feet beyond in the woods.
 
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