OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[wfgodot]

Daily Oklahoman:

Girl Scout murders in Oklahoma remain unsolved 40 years after tragedy

 

[Tampa5678]

Daily Oklahoman:

Girl Scout murders in Oklahoma remain unsolved 40 years after tragedy

I wonder if the samples will be of any use. I hope so, this is a terrible event.


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[MaryG12]

Betty, thank you for those three videos, just a few comments on them:


Girl Scout Murders KJRH 1990 Webber Recap:


Lori's mother states she would not have slept in that platform tent as an adult; neither would I.


..................


Girl Scout Murders KJRH 1990 Bryan Segment:


Murder victim Jimmy Bryan must have been at Camp Garland up the road from Camp Scott at the time these murders took place.

I have heard about this theory over at that Yuku forum mentioned at girlscoutmurders.com, and while I prefer not to dwell on it, if there is at all any truth in it, that these murders are innately far more disturbing than GLH or one of his possible associates taking part in this heinous crime.

 

[Bluebonnet_72]

It has been a long time since I did these calculations in a Calculus class but body temperature cooling depends greatly on air temperature, and I think also on the mass of the body. We would need to know the approximate air temperature the night of the murders to figure time of death. It was summer, so it was probably warm.
If someone can find the air temperature, I might be able to do the math.

 

[MaryG12]

Does anyone know how deep Snake Creek is where it runs to the right alongside the camp, particularly where that power line is?

Would that be considered a viable getaway route for the murderer(s)?

 

[MaryG12]

Google Earth view of Kiowa:

 

[HoneyWest]

I wonder if the samples will be of any use. I hope so, this is a terrible event.


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Yes, this is very interesting to me. I was under the impression that the last round of DNA testing had used the last of the samples. I hope whatever they have has been more carefully stored than how they were before DNA testing was common.

 

[charminglane]

Peep could have just pulled their sleeve down to cover their hand using the flashlight, exposing thumb on lens.

 

[MaryG12]

After looking at the location of Kiowa on Google Maps, the close proximity to that fence, anyone could have committed the crime, escape quite easily down that power line trail, across the river and onto the highway. They probably could have escaped via that nearby road marked "Private Road" southwest of the camp. Not sure they would have escaped out the entire length of the camp down the Cookie Trail road and out the front.
This is assuming it was done by an outsider, not an inside job. At this point I have no clue which it was.

 

[huxley72]

I think that the biggest injustice of this case is the fact that two shoe prints were found. One size 9.5 and other a 7 while Gene Hart had a size 11 shoe. Also a damn good fingerprint on the Flashlight that didn't match Hart. Now Hart seems like a suspect with his past and knowledge of the area but nothing at the crime scene says he was there. Now add in that after the verdict in 79 that LE and others were not going to pursue other suspects, that is what makes this case off the charts. The famillies of these girls deserve better, LE should try everything in there power to find out who did this.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I think that the biggest injustice of this case is the fact that two shoe prints were found. One size 9.5 and other a 7 while Gene Hart had a size 11 shoe. Also a damn good fingerprint on the Flashlight that didn't match Hart. Now Hart seems like a suspect with his past and knowledge of the area but nothing at the crime scene says he was there. Now add in that after the verdict in 79 that LE and others were not going to pursue other suspects, that is what makes this case off the charts. The famillies of these girls deserve better, LE should try everything in there power to find out who did this.

Mmmm.....motive, opportunity, fugitive, items in the cave that GLH hid in were taken from the campsite, glasses were stolen - GLH always stole women's glasses, friends said he always talked about wanting to rape little girls, he liked tying females up, he was a known rapist, he was type O blood, secreter, with deformed sperm due to botched vasectomy which was a pretty close match to degraded samples tested, hair was consistent with GLH, he for whatever sick perverted reason enjoyed making groaning noises which were witnessed by his Tulsa victims and heard the night of the murders.

That's enough to convince me they were on the right track, I would have gone after him for sure. But they didn't have solid evidence, so the jury did what they had to do. Railroading someone or planting evidence to secure a conviction is never okay. He was acquitted. But it doesn't mean he was innocent. If he was involved he had help. IMO

 

[Betty P]

Mmmm.....motive, opportunity, fugitive, items in the cave that GLH hid in were taken from the campsite, glasses were stolen - GLH always stole women's glasses, friends said he always talked about wanting to rape little girls, he liked tying females up, he was a known rapist, he was type O blood, secreter, with deformed sperm due to botched vasectomy which was a pretty close match to degraded samples tested, hair was consistent with GLH, he for whatever sick perverted reason enjoyed making groaning noises which were witnessed by his Tulsa victims and heard the night of the murders.

That's enough to convince me they were on the right track, I would have gone after him for sure. But they didn't have solid evidence, so the jury did what they had to do. Railroading someone or planting evidence to secure a conviction is never okay. He was acquitted. But it doesn't mean he was innocent. If he was involved he had help. IMO

Don't forget, when he was arrested, he was wearing eyeglasses that came from the crime scene.

IIRC there was a quote from one of the jurors on the case that said, to paraphrase, they didn't vote "not guilty" because they thought he was innocent. They just felt there was someone else with him.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Don't forget, when he was arrested, he was wearing eyeglasses that came from the crime scene.

IIRC there was a quote from one of the jurors on the case that said, to paraphrase, they didn't vote "not guilty" because they thought he was innocent. They just felt there was someone else with him.

Exaaaaatcly. You're speakin' my language ....

 

[Betty P]

I think that the biggest injustice of this case is the fact that two shoe prints were found. One size 9.5 and other a 7 while Gene Hart had a size 11 shoe. Also a damn good fingerprint on the Flashlight that didn't match Hart. Now Hart seems like a suspect with his past and knowledge of the area but nothing at the crime scene says he was there. Now add in that after the verdict in 79 that LE and others were not going to pursue other suspects, that is what makes this case off the charts. The famillies of these girls deserve better, LE should try everything in there power to find out who did this.

I've read a lot about the case, especially a lot in the pre-trial testimony in the last couple days, and I haven't seen anything yet saying the one footprint was size 7. All I've seen is that the print was bigger than child size.

The other print came from a dirt/grass pathway outside a tent. It may or may not have been connected to the killers. As I recall from Ranger Ben's testimony, he had 3 adults at the camp helping him set up tents the day before the girls arrived. One was a local police officer. I've wondered if that print could have been from people setting up the tents. Just a thought. OTOH, the print inside the tents is important, as those were tracked in blood, so had to have been made that night/morning. Still have some reading to do on those pre-trial docs.

 

[huxley72]

Mmmm.....motive, opportunity, fugitive, items in the cave that GLH hid in were taken from the campsite, glasses were stolen - GLH always stole women's glasses, friends said he always talked about wanting to rape little girls, he liked tying females up, he was a known rapist, he was type O blood, secreter, with deformed sperm due to botched vasectomy which was a pretty close match to degraded samples tested, hair was consistent with GLH, he for whatever sick perverted reason enjoyed making groaning noises which were witnessed by his Tulsa victims and heard the night of the murders.

That's enough to convince me they were on the right track, I would have gone after him for sure. But they didn't have solid evidence, so the jury did what they had to do. Railroading someone or planting evidence to secure a conviction is never okay. He was acquitted. But it doesn't mean he was innocent. If he was involved he had help. IMO

Why would he wear the glasses and have all these things tied to him while wearing gloves and going about not being seen and killing three people quietly in the middle of the night to not be discovered? It seems so easy on the cirumstancial evidence and non excistence at the crime scene. Why go through so much planning to leave nothing at the crime scene to leave so much information in so called caves?

 

[fred&edna]

I think that the biggest injustice of this case is the fact that two shoe prints were found. One size 9.5 and other a 7 while Gene Hart had a size 11 shoe. Also a damn good fingerprint on the Flashlight that didn't match Hart. Now Hart seems like a suspect with his past and knowledge of the area but nothing at the crime scene says he was there. Now add in that after the verdict in 79 that LE and others were not going to pursue other suspects, that is what makes this case off the charts. The famillies of these girls deserve better, LE should try everything in there power to find out who did this.

I feel certain that I heard or read there was a "Size 7" shoe/boot print found. However, I can't seem to find a source for this bit of info. It's possible it was reported in a podcast, or an old newspaper article, or maybe it was simply a post here. Anyone have link/s??

 

[missgulfsouth]

Why would he wear the glasses and have all these things tied to him while wearing gloves and going about not being seen and killing three people quietly in the middle of the night to not be discovered? It seems so easy on the cirumstancial evidence and non excistence at the crime scene. Why go through so much planning to leave nothing at the crime scene to leave so much informatione in so called caves?

He was careful and sneaky in order to get what he came for but he was also arrogant, believing he wouldn't be caught. He took huge risks. He left the Tulsa women alive to die slowly (sadistic), but they lived. He just always thought he was above the law, thumbed his nose at it and seemed to enjoy toying with police. Hiding for years right under their noses. Always having a slew of enablers to get him out of trouble and cover for him. The eyeglasses were his calling card, a dare to find him. His constant breaking of the law and evasion of it's consequences are proof of his diabolical and arrogant psyche. "THE KILLER WAS HERE BYE BYE FOOLS".

 

[huxley72]

He was careful and sneaky in order to get what he came for but he was also arrogant, believing he wouldn't be caught. He took huge risks. He left the Tulsa women alive to die slowly (sadistic), but they lived. He just always thought he was above the law, thumbed his nose at it and seemed to enjoy toying with police. Hiding for years right under their noses. Always having a slew of enablers to get him out of trouble and cover for him. The eyeglasses were his calling card, a dare to find him. His constant breaking of the law and evasion of it's consequences are proof of his diabolical and arrogant psyche. "THE KILLER WAS HERE BYE BYE FOOLS".

If only the evidence at the crime scene matched up it would be a slam dunk. But nothing matched up, and I have to say if anyone harbored him after the triple murders then they must have really believed his innocence. I don't care who you are if you think someone murdered three little girls you are not going to hide them out. I also think the "THE KILLER WAS HERE BYE BYE FOOLS" was probably a prank because really why would someone write that? I think a handwriting analysis was done and it didn't match his writing. Gene Hart was what 37 at the time of the murders? It just doesn't fit the profile of who did this, he had never murdered before, that we know of. He had no record of being a pedophill in all the 37 years of his life. I am no fan of Gene Hart, he was a bad guy but the bootprint, shoeprint, and fingerprint point to someone or someones other than him. This was planned for sometime, it could have been someone associated with the camp or a former employee who knew the grounds really well.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Women's underwear were found in the cave, tested positive for semen that was the same type as GLH. The cave was very hard to find, investigators stumbled upon it after the murders and that writing just happened to be in there as a prank?

I sure wish there was a way to definitively connect GLH or exonerate his name once and for all.

 

[Betty P]

Women's underwear were found in the cave, tested positive for semen that was the same type as GLH. The cave was very hard to find, investigators stumbled upon it after the murders and that writing just happened to be in there as a prank?

I sure wish there was a way to definitively connect GLH or exonerate his name once and for all.

It's a difficult case where evidence is concerned. I can understand the jurors who felt conflicted - that he probably was involved but had help. JMO, someone local gave LE the tip that led them to the cave/cellar. It was in a pretty remote area, not easy to access (it was about 1 mile of hiking from the closest road). LE may have stumbled upon it in their searches, as they claimed, but it's also possible someone tipped them off. Larry Dry, who spent time with GLH in county jail and escaped with him once, claimed to have spent time hiding out there with GLH. Not sure I believe everything Dry says, but he may have been the one who gave them info about the cave.

http://girlscoutmurders.com/PreTrialVolume4.pdf

Dry's testimony is at the end of Volume 4, beginning on p 674. Searchers could have also found the cave/cellar, too. There were hundreds of people searching the area around Camp Scott for weeks after, and one or two searchers testified they came across it. Regardless, GLH probably didn't expect LE to find the hideout, so may have been careless about what he left there.

It's also possible another local accomplice hung out at the cave, too, and wrote the note on the wall. If it's the person I suspect, they were only about 19 or 20 yrs old at the time and more likely to have written something like that. The person I suspect as an accomplice is still living, as far as I've been able to discern from online searches. They could be tested for DNA if there was enough probable cause to check.

As for wearing glasses, GLH needed glasses to correct his vision. Sometimes he had his own, other times he didn't. When he didn't, he took other people's glasses during burglaries, etc. He would take any that he found and check them later to see if they worked for him. If they didn't, he tossed them.

Hart was unusual, inconsistent at times. He could be skilled at planning his crimes, but also made dumb mistakes. For example: he carefully planned the abduction and rape of the two Tulsa women in 1966, but he bound them with tape that wasn't strongly adhesive. Hence, they were able to get loose and aid LE in his capture. He also liked to break into people's homes to burglarize them while they were sleeping - very bold, but kind of dumb. His last burglary was at the apartment of a woman police officer who awoke to see him taking items from her bedside table.