Suthrnqt
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Do you know what was written on the door? Has that info been released by LE? In case you didn't notice, I am really curious about the door. Lol
TIA for any info.
OK OK - Rev. Carol Daniels, 61, Anadarko, 23 Aug 2009
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Do you know what was written on the door? Has that info been released by LE? In case you didn't notice, I am really curious about the door. Lol
TIA for any info.
Dear Foxfire,
I do not know if she was wearing earrings, I have never read anything about it.
As for her defensive wounds, that was reported by the coroner and police. The wounds were on her arms and occurred from her raising her arms to protect herself from the blade, if she had her throat cut first, that would not have happened in that manner. Secondly, if the killer did hide behind the door and closed it before attacking her, as he would have had to, then the door alone would have caused her to turn around. I do not believe she was killed from behind.
She was a large woman and it would be difficult to hold her up while cutting her throat. The most likely scenario is that she was attacked from in front and had her throat cut after she fell to the ground.
The final cut prior to her dying was most likely the throat, the mutilation would have occurred after she died, specifically the breast cut. In order to do that she would have already been on the ground. That means the killer was covered in blood from kneeling down. One should also consider that the body was staged, again, after she died and on the ground.
The killer entered and exited through the back, through the door that the police kept in evidence. He did not come in through the windows as those were all checked by her elderly friend who reported that he tapped on all the windows and he reported no sign of forced entry or broken windows and reported the front door was locked which means it was not broken into and the video shows that nobody entered or exited through the front.
Once we assume that the killer was covered in blood, we are left with few options. Firstly, the killer walked out the back in view of the police station, other houses and the gas station covered in blood on a bright Sunday. Two, the killer brought a change of clothes along with whatever chemicals he used to destroy the DNA evidence. The last option is that the killer was wearing protective clothing, perhaps rain-wear or plastic bags of some sort.
As for her hair being set on fire and 4 inches remaining, it may be that the blood put out the fire and that is the manner in which it self extinguished. As her neck had been nearly severed off, there would have been a lot of blood covering the back of her head once she was on the ground.
In the end the reason for considering how she was killed only has value if it leads us to understanding who the killer was and/or their motivation. I do not believe the killer was attempting to burn down the building to hide the evidence, there would be no need to use chemicals to destroy the DNA evidence. In addition, setting her hair on fire is a pretty useless way of trying to set fire to the whole building which again begs the question of why he set the hair on fire. It is possible that he removed some of her hair and set fire to the rest so that the police would not look for the "trophy" hair to catch the killer. I think it is more likely that he was trying to make a statement.
What could the statement have been? Well, there is not much in the bible about the hair. It is called the glory of a woman and brought power to Samson. That is not quite accurate. Samson was of a group of men who would promise to never cut their hair as a testament to their dedication to God, I believe it says that his mother dedicated him to God. Samson got his strength from God, not from having hair. Having his hair removed did not take his powers, his lack of faith did, he lost his confidence and still managed to pull down the pillars after his hair was cut.
While I do not assume this was a religiously motivated killing, the burning of the hair is very unusual and the purpose is unclear. As a rule I do not believe a non-Christian would even think of burning off her hair unless there was a purpose like hiding the crime. I don't see how it hides this crime. Burning down the building would have been easier and destroyed more evidence. If the killer burnt her hair to remove her glory than it would make sense that they agreed with the bible. That is neither the opinion of an Atheist or a Satanist. They would not think of such a thing.
Is it possible that the killer was an incredibly fundamentalist Christian who hated felt that females being Pastors was an abomination? This did happen in the bible belt. Was removing her glory, her hair, a punishment? Just some thoughts.
I do not know if she was wearing earrings, I have never read anything about it.
As for her defensive wounds, that was reported by the coroner and police. The wounds were on her arms and occurred from her raising her arms to protect herself from the blade, if she had her throat cut first, that would not have happened in that manner. Secondly, if the killer did hide behind the door and closed it before attacking her, as he would have had to, then the door alone would have caused her to turn around. I do not believe she was killed from behind.
She was a large woman and it would be difficult to hold her up while cutting her throat. The most likely scenario is that she was attacked from in front and had her throat cut after she fell to the ground.
The final cut prior to her dying was most likely the throat, the mutilation would have occurred after she died, specifically the breast cut. In order to do that she would have already been on the ground. That means the killer was covered in blood from kneeling down. One should also consider that the body was staged, again, after she died and on the ground.
The killer entered and exited through the back, through the door that the police kept in evidence. He did not come in through the windows as those were all checked by her elderly friend who reported that he tapped on all the windows and he reported no sign of forced entry or broken windows and reported the front door was locked which means it was not broken into and the video shows that nobody entered or exited through the front.
Once we assume that the killer was covered in blood, we are left with few options. Firstly, the killer walked out the back in view of the police station, other houses and the gas station covered in blood on a bright Sunday. Two, the killer brought a change of clothes along with whatever chemicals he used to destroy the DNA evidence. The last option is that the killer was wearing protective clothing, perhaps rain-wear or plastic bags of some sort.
As for her hair being set on fire and 4 inches remaining, it may be that the blood put out the fire and that is the manner in which it self extinguished. As her neck had been nearly severed off, there would have been a lot of blood covering the back of her head once she was on the ground.
In the end the reason for considering how she was killed only has value if it leads us to understanding who the killer was and/or their motivation. I do not believe the killer was attempting to burn down the building to hide the evidence, there would be no need to use chemicals to destroy the DNA evidence. In addition, setting her hair on fire is a pretty useless way of trying to set fire to the whole building which again begs the question of why he set the hair on fire. It is possible that he removed some of her hair and set fire to the rest so that the police would not look for the "trophy" hair to catch the killer. I think it is more likely that he was trying to make a statement.
What could the statement have been? Well, there is not much in the bible about the hair. It is called the glory of a woman and brought power to Samson. That is not quite accurate. Samson was of a group of men who would promise to never cut their hair as a testament to their dedication to God, I believe it says that his mother dedicated him to God. Samson got his strength from God, not from having hair. Having his hair removed did not take his powers, his lack of faith did, he lost his confidence and still managed to pull down the pillars after his hair was cut.
While I do not assume this was a religiously motivated killing, the burning of the hair is very unusual and the purpose is unclear. As a rule I do not believe a non-Christian would even think of burning off her hair unless there was a purpose like hiding the crime. I don't see how it hides this crime. Burning down the building would have been easier and destroyed more evidence. If the killer burnt her hair to remove her glory than it would make sense that they agreed with the bible. That is neither the opinion of an Atheist or a Satanist. They would not think of such a thing.
Is it possible that the killer was an incredibly fundamentalist Christian who hated felt that females being Pastors was an abomination? This did happen in the bible belt. Was removing her glory, her hair, a punishment? Just some thoughts.
Do you know what was written on the door? Has that info been released by LE? In case you didn't notice, I am really curious about the door. Lol
TIA for any info.
Dear Suthrnqt,
I have no proof anything was written on the door or any idea of what it might have said. What we know is that the back door was removed and we are left to speculate why. As far as I have read, the only part of the building that was removed and kept was the back door, the whole thing. Maybe it was kicked in and kept because of a shoe print; but, I think it is most likely that it was kept because it had writing on it, not fingerprints, those would have been copied, scanned and sent to the FBI for cross referencing.
fred&edna
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I realize your post was addressed to Foxfire but I wanted to comment as I agree very much with many of your points (BBM).
Again, I keep re-reading Ezekiel, and I wonder if it's possible something was done with three sections of Pastor Daniels hair? We know one portion was singed. While there is no evidence to prove it, I think it's likely the murderer bound some in her clothing, and scattered some in the wind.
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=26&c=5
Is there a strict fundamentalist church in the area? Were there other active female pastors in the community in 2009? Also, do you know what type of dissolving chemical was used?
* Also wondering if there were any other "similar" murders in the area prior to OR after this?
AQuestion, thank you for your reply and theories. I feel that Vernon Gerberth's theories and conclusions of Pastor Carol Daniels horrific murder are very astute..
My opinions only;
RE: Video
If the video was conclusive, OSBI would not have had to send it to the FBI @ Quantico, VA for enhancement, imo.
RE: Hair statement in Bible; http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/ezekiel/5.html
RE: Number 10 & color Green from the riddle laden comment by anonymous in reply to BTK statement;
http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/5-10.htm
RE: Green; the color green can be materialistic and possessive, with a need to own people and things...
http://www.empower-yourself-with-color-psychology.com/color-green.html
RE: Nonchristian thinking about burning the hair/Athiesist or Satanist, they wouldn't think of such a thing.
AQ, Never underestimate a psychopath. They can be extremely intelligent and deep thinkers, and have a reason for everything they say and everything they do.
Why did the perp not take PCD's ring for a souveneir or for profit? Imo, If the ring was gold, Satanists do not wear gold, Richard Ramirez; night stalker quote..
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/terror_1.html
AQuestion, anything is possible....
I wonder if they meant 'mostly' intead of 'likely' - if you look at the drawings - it says "black, 4" mostly singed scalp" and then on the next one, it states, "singed" showing lines on the top of the head.
OEJ
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Personally, I think the hair being burned was just a part of the general destruction of evidence the perpetrator went above and beyond to do. I think the guy has a paraphilia called, piquerism. The slashing, cutting, stabbing is his idea of really good sex. He probably stood over her and masturbated, and that is the evidence he was trying to get rid of. As smart as he thinks he is, and he's a little smarter than some I've seen, he HAD to do this to fulfill the fantasy. I'll bet he didn't get all of the DNA, either. Notice the parallel wavy cuts on her lower back? He has a thing for the lower backs of women - highly erotic - and I think he took the time to enjoy doing this after she had died. It's just a total sexual homicide he had planned for awhile.
colette
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I too think the hair was burned to get rid of evidence. The other thing the autopsy tells me is the ring with the clear stones turned palm side. Many women turn their rings to hide diamonds so the ring looks like a plain band when they think they are being robbed. Carol may have thought she was being robbed, makes me think it was a stranger who attacked her.
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1005/anadarkoautopsy.pdf
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1005/anadarkoautopsy.pdf
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Anyone have any thoughts on the perp being Renata Monet? She was a transgender psychopath who killed her pastor, and herself, just a couple months after pastor Daniels was murdered.
I'm on the kindle and can't link the thread, but search for Renata Monet.
Interesting parallels to say the least.
Via Kindle, like a true Amazon junkie
I'm on the kindle and can't link the thread, but search for Renata Monet.
Interesting parallels to say the least.
Via Kindle, like a true Amazon junkie
fred&edna
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Well, I found this to be very interesting and soon realized this has possibility has already been discussed by others:
Transgendered Person Slays Pastor, Satanic Manifesto Found - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Transgendered Person Slays Pastor, Satanic Manifesto Found
OEJ
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I kind of got excited there for a minute, but then I realized I had gone through that before. My own opinion, fwiw, is that Renata has been suffering disorganized type mental disorder for a long time, and in my view, the killer of Ms. Carol Daniels is highly organized. Highly. He won't be killing any women in his house and then himself.
fred&edna
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I haven't read all the posts on these two threads but here's something very interesting...
In the second section of the "Biography of Secesh Bob L'Aloge" he says:
"Having been chosen by Him from before the foundation of the world; and having been licensed “into the Gospel Ministry...to preach the gospel as may have opportunity and to exercise [my] gifts in the work of the ministry by Trinity Baptist Church at Norman, Oklahoma, on the 26th day of November in the year of our Lord 1969 A.D.”;"
http://members.tripod.com/fam_bible_assoc/Poli/NuBio.html
Pastor Daniels graduated from Douglass High in 1965. (I'm assuming Douglass High in Oklahoma City)
Carol graduated from Douglass High School in 1965, and went on to attend college in Dallas,Texas. She later transferred to Central State University(UCO)in Edmond,Oklahoma. Carol graduated in 1971 with a B.A. Degree in Chemistry and Biology. While attending Central State,she joined Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Inc,.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=41245868
The distance between Norman, OK and Oklahoma City, OK is only about 20 miles. Could they have possibly known each other??
In the second section of the "Biography of Secesh Bob L'Aloge" he says:
"Having been chosen by Him from before the foundation of the world; and having been licensed “into the Gospel Ministry...to preach the gospel as may have opportunity and to exercise [my] gifts in the work of the ministry by Trinity Baptist Church at Norman, Oklahoma, on the 26th day of November in the year of our Lord 1969 A.D.”;"
http://members.tripod.com/fam_bible_assoc/Poli/NuBio.html
Pastor Daniels graduated from Douglass High in 1965. (I'm assuming Douglass High in Oklahoma City)
Carol graduated from Douglass High School in 1965, and went on to attend college in Dallas,Texas. She later transferred to Central State University(UCO)in Edmond,Oklahoma. Carol graduated in 1971 with a B.A. Degree in Chemistry and Biology. While attending Central State,she joined Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Inc,.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=41245868
The distance between Norman, OK and Oklahoma City, OK is only about 20 miles. Could they have possibly known each other??
fred&edna, just when we thought this case couldn't get any more convoluted, huh? Interesting find on SB L'Aloge. Imo, there are many parallels in the two Pastor murder cases, and only a few months of separation when both of these very rare horrific crimes took place. Was Pastor Daniel's murder in OK, the catalyst for the TX Pastor's murder? Seems logical to conclude that SB L'Aloge, would have quickly became the prime suspect in Pastor Daniel's murder by OSBI/FBI investigators over 4 years ago, and either ruled in or out by now, imo..
'Silence by LE is the predator's most lethal weapon, imo'...
Imo, the fires in Anardarko, OK, bar the night before Pastor Daniels murder and the 38 cal., found in the grass the next morning, near the park gazebo, by the two owners of the Anadarko Daily News, may just be the smoking gun that might have solved her case. Although the fire was determined to be suspicious/likely arson, for multiple reasons, from my info. The two cases were determined/assumed to be unrelated. Imo, this may have been the weak link in the investigative chain into Pastor Carol Daniel's sadistic ritual murder..
'You must first collect the dots to connect the dots'..
Awareness is the key in missing/murdered person's investigations, imo. 'Alone we can do little, but together we can accomplish anything'..quote Helen Keller..
I've been monitoring the views on Pastor Carol's thread and they have increased significantly over the recent past; 2,000+ views/approximately 400 views per day over the past 5 days.
Please share the WS PCD thread link to increase awareness and participation in the discussion. Imo, The msm follows the cases with the most interest. Hopefully they will break the silence and demand answers in the Pastor Carol Daniels' murder investigation after almost 5 years...
___________________
An interesting and inspiring article that illustrates the importance of awareness and communication; Prayers, perseverance, and social networking leads to rescue of missing GA woman;
http://onlineathens.com/local-news/...-networking-led-recovery-missing-athens-woman
I've been monitoring the views on Pastor Carol's thread and they have increased significantly over the recent past; 2,000+ views/approximately 400 views per day over the past 5 days.
Please share the WS PCD thread link to increase awareness and participation in the discussion. Imo, The msm follows the cases with the most interest. Hopefully they will break the silence and demand answers in the Pastor Carol Daniels' murder investigation after almost 5 years...
___________________
An interesting and inspiring article that illustrates the importance of awareness and communication; Prayers, perseverance, and social networking leads to rescue of missing GA woman;
http://onlineathens.com/local-news/...-networking-led-recovery-missing-athens-woman
fred&edna
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BBM... I agree. Surely, they ruled out L'Aloge early on.
Imo, if Mr. R had warned Pastor Carol Daniels of a stalker prior to her murder. It seems that he would have been able to provide enough info for a sketch and physical description of a POI. Why was there no sketch/description provided by the OSBI. Why is there no sketch available now?
<Snipped & BBM for Focus>
<Snipped & BBM for Focus>
FYI- Hot threads for last week on Crimes in the News:
Boardreader Websleuths Crimes in the News
http://boardreader.com/fp/Websleuths_Crime_Sleuthing_Com_9288/Crimes_in_the_News_1514.html
Pastor Carol Daniels' - Anardarko, OK - 08/2009 - Websleuth Thread -
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88118&page=13&highlight=carol+daniels
RE: good article as the 4th anniversary nears with no resolution in sight - 55 new posts
Started 10 months, 3 weeks ago by wfgodot
Minister's 2009 brutal slaying remains on people's minds in Anadarko . (Daily Oklahoman) Nearly four years after a minister was slain inside her downtown Pentecostal church, some residents of Anadarko, Oklahoma, remain on edge.
Boardreader Websleuths Crimes in the News
http://boardreader.com/fp/Websleuths_Crime_Sleuthing_Com_9288/Crimes_in_the_News_1514.html
Pastor Carol Daniels' - Anardarko, OK - 08/2009 - Websleuth Thread -
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88118&page=13&highlight=carol+daniels
RE: good article as the 4th anniversary nears with no resolution in sight - 55 new posts
Started 10 months, 3 weeks ago by wfgodot
Minister's 2009 brutal slaying remains on people's minds in Anadarko . (Daily Oklahoman) Nearly four years after a minister was slain inside her downtown Pentecostal church, some residents of Anadarko, Oklahoma, remain on edge.
This may just be a coincidence but I recall reading that the officer that the gun was turned into had the same last name as the man that lived in the house next to the church.
In downtown Anadarko, a double dose of bad news
<sniped -from archives>http://lite.newsok.com/
Carolyn McBride, editor of The Anadarko Daily News, said she arrived at the fire about 5:30 a.m. Saturday. She and husband Joe McBride Jr., co-publishers, were just north of the newspaper building in a park near when she looked down and saw a gun.
* 'McBride said she flagged down a police officer, Sgt. Charles Pendarvis, and he took possession of the .38-caliber pistol. She said she does not think the gun had any relevance to the fire'.
Johnny Johnson and Robert Medley, Staff Writers
Found the info on the neighbor.
From FoxNew.com
Mitchell Pendarvis, who lives next door to the church, was surprised to hear about the killing.
http://tinyurl.com/on7v4qf