OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

[Chimera]

The physics of throwing an anvil from height and with speed with a precise target in mind boggles the mind and given the apparent intelligence of the group of co-conspirators leads me to believe that they would have most likely injured themselves or an innocent passerby.

MOO

Snipped for focus.
Bolding mine.
Ita.

And if an evildoer injures themselves whilst attempting to harm or kill another, I have zero compassion for the perps.
I still can't get over how preventable this crime was, maybe if red flags weren't ignored and if anyone who may have known just how dangerous the killers were -- did the right thing & reported them !
Perhaps some thought the killers were crazy and were only making wild, imaginary threats .
Omo.

 

[AugustWest]

Does the "pro se notice of invocation of constitutional rights oklahoma" at the bottom mean that Cora is going to try to represent herself?
I checked the other three, and she's the only one that has this listed in the court records. And nobody has an attorney at this point.
IMO

OSCN Case Details

She is invoking her right to the following statute on her own, not necessarily representing herself regarding her charges.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=443445

 

[doublestop]

An affidavit revealed that Butler was going through a nasty divorce and custody battle with her husband Wrangler Cole Rickman

Gang accused of killing two Kansas mothers belong religious group

The four suspects accused of killing two Kansas mother's were part of a antigovernmental religious group called 'God's Misfits.' Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley went missing on March 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That's not Wrangler, and she hasn't been married to either one of them.

 

[Herat]

Beats me. It's a fair question, but for a murder plot several months in the making, it doesn't seem like they spent more than 5 minutes thinking through the details.

Or the "What Ifs"

You would think after the failed anvil at-home murder plot, they would have had a series of plan options in case something exactly like this happened.

She didn't even have a new alibi made up, had to use the old one that made so little sense it just placed her smack dab in the middle of the conspiracy.

 

[Eli9]

She is invoking her right to the following statute on her own, not necessarily representing herself regarding her charges.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=443445

Are you saying she wants to restrict public access to her case details? Sorry if I'm not following.

 

[Herat]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

I forsee an attempt to turn the trial into a referendum on sovereign rights and free speech.

Thankfully, with OSBI and FBI that should not happen.

Wonder who is gonna be a quadruple DP murder judge? Anyone else expect a change of venue?

 

[NWay]

I presume that was TA’s explanation for why she wasn’t at Four Corners with the children tapping her fingers, waiting impatiently because VB hadn’t shown up.

But at the same time it wouldn’t be out of the realm if TA had told VB to not bother arranging a supervisor to accompany her, but VB did what she was court ordered to do, not trusting her. If so, it’s entirely possible TA expected VB would be alone.

It was TA telling her preferred Court Observer to "Take a 2 week break" iirc in the AA yesterday that sealed the deal on the premeditation imo.

The only conclusion I can get to easily is that TA firmly believed that she was in control of LE in the area and that there would be no consequences for any of their poorly laid plans. I don't think any of the 4 co-conspirators could have imagined the story getting national and then international attention and so quickly thanks to social media imo.

Still wonder if the group had done something similar in the past and it was smooth sailing and so they felt emboldened to simply remove the source of TA ire regarding her grandchildren?

MOO

 

[AugustWest]

Are you saying she wants to restrict public access to her case details? Sorry if I'm not following.

Not necessarily the instant case details, possibly the records of some prior case which had information regarding the circumstances laid out in the statute. I have no idea which circumstance applies.

 

[Eli9]

Not necessarily the instant case details, possibly the records of some prior case which had information regarding the circumstances laid out in the statute. I have no idea which circumstance applies.

Oh wow, thanks!

 

[charmingbetsy]

Dbm

 

[Herat]

It was TA telling her preferred Court Observer to "Take a 2 week break" iirc in the AA yesterday that sealed the deal on the premeditation imo.

The only conclusion I can get to easily is that TA firmly believed that she was in control of LE in the area and that there would be no consequences for any of their poorly laid plans. I don't think any of the 4 co-conspirators could have imagined the story getting national and then international attention and so quickly thanks to social media imo.

Still wonder if the group had done something similar in the past and it was smooth sailing and so they felt emboldened to simply remove the source of TA ire regarding her grandchildren?

MOO

As if the 5 tasers and 3 burner phones were not evidence enough of premeditation.

Or the way the children were handled that morning.

I wonder if God's Miserables took meeting minutes, too.

 

[vls12345]

They may most likely believe it was God's Will to kill VB. It sounds like a cult, a small cult but a cult nonetheless, like the Daybells, delusional thinking they are doing God's Will.

I really can't think the perps in this case are delusional. I think they are raging narcissists (or psychopaths) filled with hate. While they may understand what they have done, I think they will always remain indifferent to any harm they have caused due to their actions. MOO.

 

[Eli9]

It was TA telling her preferred Court Observer to "Take a 2 week break" iirc in the AA yesterday that sealed the deal on the premeditation imo.

The only conclusion I can get to easily is that TA firmly believed that she was in control of LE in the area and that there would be no consequences for any of their poorly laid plans. I don't think any of the 4 co-conspirators could have imagined the story getting national and then international attention and so quickly thanks to social media imo.

Still wonder if the group had done something similar in the past and it was smooth sailing and so they felt emboldened to simply remove the source of TA ire regarding her grandchildren?

MOO

Yes and she told her preferred observer that she wanted to check with the children about how the other supervisors were.

 

[x_files]

Exactly what I've been wondering.
Omo.

I think these ranchers were running an illegal business on the side, and also did NOT want VB to tell the courts about it. Ever watch THE OZARKS? The grandma ran an illegal meth business on her farm/ranch. She killed people to obtain custody of a child?

 

[Herat]

I wonder if Cora Twombley is trying to find some statute that prevents her minor child from testifying against her in court.

 

[x_files]

I really can't think the perps in this case are delusional. I think they are raging narcissists (or psychopaths) filled with hate. While they may understand what they have done, I think they will always remain indifferent to any harm they have caused due to their actions. MOO.

It's possible some were delusional following the lead of the grandma. Was she the leader of the God's Misfits?

 

[NWay]

One has a constitutional right to represent themselves, regardless of state, but I wouldn't want to speculate on whether she (or any of them) will do so. Nothing would surprise me from these brainiacs at this point, though.

@AugustWest, yes of course on the self representation right in the US but I wondered if any of the defendants chose the self representation path in OK that because we could be looking at a DP or Capital Murder case that the Court has the obligation or perhaps rule based obligation in the State's Rules to provide an attorney to oversee the process of self representation and assist as needed or not?

We saw something similar in WI with Daryl Brooks (pro se Sov Cit iirc) where at one point the Defendant had a State provided attorney for a period of time (attorney didn't stay for the duration of the trial that I could see) and so I was never sure if it had been mandated by the WI Court or not. I recall also in the recent Idaho 4 Murder case that it took awhile to find a defense attorney that was DP certified as the Defendant was reliant on public defender but not representing himself.

Just wondered if OK had any rules for DP or Capital cases requiring attorney support for pro se defendants?

MOO

 

[Leilei]

I wonder if Cora Twombley is trying to find some statute that prevents her minor child from testifying against her in court.

That is entirely possible. I sure don't see that happening, though.
IMO

 

[NWay]

Snipped for focus.
Bolding mine.
Ita.

And if an evildoer injures themselves whilst attempting to harm or kill another, I have zero compassion for the perps.
I still can't get over how preventable this crime was, maybe if red flags weren't ignored and if anyone who may have known just how dangerous the killers were -- did the right thing & reported them !
Perhaps some thought the killers were crazy and were only making wild, imaginary threats .
Omo.

Yes, so agree with you!

Its always interesting once the information becomes clearer to see how many individuals MIGHT HAVE been able to stop a crime from happening.

So far the list based on what we know is NOT SHORT. And, its pretty clear that only a small fraction of the available information was in the AA.

It simply seems that the people surrounding TA just let her do whatever she wanted and there were never consequences. But the LE involvement with them telling VB that she didn't need LE support for her custody exchanges is imo something that should be seriously investigated given the tragedy that has played out here. I do wonder if the individual from LE that made the statement on the record to the Court regarding LE involvement not being necessary was the same individual who was accompanying TA to Court appearances?

Very much hope that OK DHS researches this issue and makes adjustments in Cimarron County as needed.

MOO

 

[Eli9]

@AugustWest, yes of course on the self representation right in the US but I wondered if any of the defendants chose the self representation path in OK that because we could be looking at a DP or Capital Murder case that the Court has the obligation or perhaps rule based obligation in the State's Rules to provide an attorney to oversee the process of self representation and assist as needed or not?

We saw something similar in WI with Daryl Brooks (pro se Sov Cit iirc) where at one point the Defendant had a State provided attorney for a period of time (attorney didn't stay for the duration of the trial that I could see) and so I was never sure if it had been mandated by the WI Court or not. I recall also in the recent Idaho 4 Murder case that it took awhile to find a defense attorney that was DP certified as the Defendant was reliant on public defender but not representing himself.

Just wondered if OK had any rules for DP or Capital cases requiring attorney support for pro se defendants?

MOO

Interesting. If OK has rules for DP cases they might be needing a near handful for these jugalugs.

Also are all of the defendants scheduled for 9:30 for tomorrow's arraignments?