Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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So if I saw a 30-stone woman I couldn't say she was obese because it needs a professional diagnosis? If we witness someone lying (repeatedly) we can't say they're a compulsive liar because it needs a professional diagnosis? People don't need to be spoon fed the obvious. We can draw conclusions based on what we see and hear. Everyone who followed the trial knows the murderer is a liar and no amount of excuses is going to change that fact. He is a liar. The only way he can't be a liar is if every single witness was a liar instead. The odds? Close to zero.

Someone can tell lies but not be a compulsive or pathological liar.

That's not making excuses - but it is stating things plainly.

No one has suggested that he told the truth at all times on the stand. That's a different point.

The back and forth on here in recent posts has been on the label ' compulsive ' and ' pathological ' being used as though they had been proven as (professionally confirmed) truth rather than as WS-poster opinion.
 
Someone can tell lies but not be a compulsive or pathological liar.

That's not making excuses - but it is stating things plainly.

No one has suggested that he told the truth at all times on the stand. That's a different point.

The back and forth on here in recent posts has been on the label ' compulsive ' and ' pathological ' being used as though they had been proven as (professionally confirmed) truth rather than as WS-poster opinion.

That is a complete misrepresentation and, of course, is only another opinion from a very small group of "point-scoring posters" struggling to make headway with their interpretation of events.
 
That is a complete misrepresentation and, of course, is only another opinion from a very small group of "point-scoring posters" struggling to make headway with their interpretation of events.

No. The misrepresentation comes where posters imply that those who challenge the 'assumed truth ' of the pathological /compulsive label are suddenly insisting that Pistorius told the truth at all times on the stand.
 
No. The misrepresentation comes where posters imply that those who challenge the 'assumed truth ' of the pathological /compulsive label are suddenly insisting that Pistorius told the truth at all times on the stand.

The problem is he didn't tell one single truth. That is where your defence of him becomes farcical.
 
Not one single truth? Is there proof that every single thing he said was a lie?

Yep. It was shown in court. Unless you include confirming his name, which I have no idea if he did or not because I don't recall it.
 
Someone can tell lies but not be a compulsive or pathological liar.

That's not making excuses - but it is stating things plainly.

No one has suggested that he told the truth at all times on the stand. That's a different point.

The back and forth on here in recent posts has been on the label ' compulsive ' and ' pathological ' being used as though they had been proven as (professionally confirmed) truth rather than as WS-poster opinion.

BIB. Ok , but at the very least that still makes him a perjuror with scant regard for the truth in a case where he wasn't some sideshow witness, he was the defendent in a murder case with his "life on the line."

The issue someone has raised on the previous page "but that doesn't make him a murderer" is missing the point. When a number of Judges state that his testimony cannot be relied on and he is the only witness..... that is the point.....then there are legal consequences.

But anyway back to the general definition issue. Compulsive liar? From the interviews he has given, the autobiogs he had printed, the testimony he gave from bail statement onwards there is a long-standing pattern of lying over many years, whether it's over serious matters or inconsequentials. (And that's not even including the Sam Taylor book's claims.) Prior to the murder, why would he need to big himself up when he had actually achieved a great deal?

I think the "pinocchio with a gun" label by SoozieQT upthread is pretty accurate as it reminds me of all the little lies he told, often for self-aggrandisement, BEFORE he killed Reeva, which to me evoke the infantile man-boy he had grown up to be by the time of the murder. And no, we don't hand loaded guns to little boys do we?

(Compulsive lying doesn't always go with personality disorders but psychologists believe the liar gets some psychological comfort from those needless white lies. Kids often do it too but they grow out of it.)


Over the last 3 years here on WS we have compiled running lists of his lies & "inconsistencies" so yes it's a pity they are not all on one thread for ease of reference. (Don't think any of us are going to waste our time compiling that again in 2016 so please don't ask me for the links - we all posted those here in 2013 & 2014 & 2015- it's not because I can't but simply cause it would take hours to do.)
 
Don't be ridiculous, of course there is proof.

Masipa ignored it.
.....where ?......anyone who has followed this case closely should know it's the biggest thing missing....there's no proof of anything, maybe the closest would be the screams but even then their open to question.....
 
Am still catching up here on the last few month's of posts.

Putting aside the compulsive lying topic for a moment, can anyone remember the previous Greenland debate.
JG had said/written that it should actually have been a verdict of dolus directus against a human being (albeit behind a door.)

can't find the link and can't remember the gist of his comments.

TIA
 
.....where ?......anyone who has followed this case closely should know it's the biggest thing missing....there's no proof of anything, maybe the closest would be the screams but even then their open to question.....

Colin, I know you are still hoping there is a video tape of the killing and Oscar clarifies his testimony so we know why he shot, but please look again at the facts of the case (legal opinion invited from other Websleuthers):

First of all, there is prima facie proof of unlawful killing (homicide)-- dead body (Reeva), murder weapon (9mm Parabellum), confessed killer (Oscar).

So a homicide is already well established and therefore, the initial burden was on the accused to justify the killing, otherwise it will automatically be murder.

He attempted to justify it as a lawful killing under putative (supposed) private defense (PPD).

However, his account failed to meet the standards for a lawful PPD claim for several reasons, including that he exceeded the bounds of lawful self-defense and the prosecution was able to convince the court that, under the circumstances of Oscar's own version of events, he could not have honestly held the belief that he was lawfully entitled to use lethal force against someone behind a closed door just because they made a noise.

So he cannot justify what is already an unlawful killing (homicide) with the excuse that he was acting in a lawful form of putative self-defense.

So the court has to consider whether he killed out of negligence or intended to kill within any of the 3 forms of Dolus-- directus, indirect, or eventualis.

Masipa ruled that the State did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he directly intended to kill Reeva (DD).
Masipa did decide however that he acted negligently because he shot and killed Reeva without checking on her location first.

However, the State was obliged to appeal because she greatly erred in her test to determine if Dolus eventualis applied to OP's situation. She failed to consider that the identity of the person in the toilet was irrelevant for determining what OP's intentions were toward them.

So, for evaluating if he was guilty of DE, you need to keep in mind that it has already been determined that he has no basis to justify an unlawful homicide ("of a person, to wit, Reeva Steenkamp"), and you now have to determine how it came to be that he killed that person (just the human being-- not Reeva personally, her death has already been ruled out as an "error in objecto"). But did he intend to kill someone else when he accidentally killed Reeva?

YOU CHOOSE:

1. Did he intend to kill the person behind the door or was he negligent in some way that resulted in their death? Perhaps he could have been shooting some warning shots in the direction of the door and he inadvertently killed them?? Was that what happened? Did he handle his gun negligently and it went off and accidentally struck the person in the toilet and just happened to kill them? That's sort of his story... but it doesn't hold up to the ballistics evidence though, does it?

2. Or by firing four rounds of 9mm Black Talon type bullets into a confined space, did his actions demonstrate a reckless disregard for whether or not he could possibly kill someone?

For me the question boils down to:
A) Was he merely negligent to have not identified the person behind the door and they were consequently killed in a lawful self defense action?

B) Or, was it obvious he did he not care who might get killed by firing four rounds into that door and he fired in an unlawful and unjustified response to a mistaken threat??
 
Colin, I know you are still hoping there is a video tape of the killing and Oscar clarifies his testimony so we know why he shot, but please look again at the facts of the case (legal opinion invited from other Websleuthers):

First of all, there is prima facie proof of unlawful killing (homicide)-- dead body (Reeva), murder weapon (9mm Parabellum), confessed killer (Oscar).

So a homicide is already well established and therefore, the initial burden was on the accused to justify the killing, otherwise it will automatically be murder.

He attempted to justify it as a lawful killing under putative (supposed) private defense (PPD).

However, his account failed to meet the standards for a lawful PPD claim for several reasons, including that he exceeded the bounds of lawful self-defense and the prosecution was able to convince the court that, under the circumstances of Oscar's own version of events, he could not have honestly held the belief that he was lawfully entitled to use lethal force against someone behind a closed door just because they made a noise.

So he cannot justify what is already an unlawful killing (homicide) with the excuse that he was acting in a lawful form of putative self-defense.

So the court has to consider whether he killed out of negligence or intended to kill within any of the 3 forms of Dolus-- directus, indirect, or eventualis.

Masipa ruled that the State did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he directly intended to kill Reeva (DD).
Masipa did decide however that he acted negligently because he shot and killed Reeva without checking on her location first.

However, the State was obliged to appeal because she greatly erred in her test to determine if Dolus eventualis applied to OP's situation. She failed to consider that the identity of the person in the toilet was irrelevant for determining what OP's intentions were toward them.

So, for evaluating if he was guilty of DE, you need to keep in mind that it has already been determined that he has no basis to justify an unlawful homicide ("of a person, to wit, Reeva Steenkamp"), and you now have to determine how it came to be that he killed that person (just the human being-- not Reeva personally, her death has already been ruled out as an "error in objecto"). But did he intend to kill someone else when he accidentally killed Reeva?

YOU CHOOSE:

1. Did he intend to kill the person behind the door or was he negligent in some way that resulted in their death? Perhaps he could have been shooting some warning shots in the direction of the door and he inadvertently killed them?? Was that what happened? Did he handle his gun negligently and it went off and accidentally struck the person in the toilet and just happened to kill them? That's sort of his story... but it doesn't hold up to the ballistics evidence though, does it?

2. Or by firing four rounds of 9mm Black Talon type bullets into a confined space, did his actions demonstrate a reckless disregard for whether or not he could possibly kill someone?

For me the question boils down to:
A) Was he merely negligent to have not identified the person behind the door and they were consequently killed in a lawful self defense action?

B) Or, was it obvious he did he not care who might get killed by firing four rounds into that door and he fired in an unlawful and unjustified response to a mistaken threat??

......you started off ok but when i came to "confessed killer"...! is there anything that "proves" that the intruder version is a lie ? .....i'm not making an subjective opinion like the majority of posts on here, i already have my own opinion of what i think happened, what i am trying to show is that as far as objective proof, evidence or fact regarding a deliberate murder, there is none....and so i can't see how on the basis of lack of evidence how his version can be disputed and he can be sent to prison for murder, moreover i think the case is a complete judicial shambles resulting in a unsatisfactory situation and that an appeal to the Con court is possible...
 
Anyone who's followed this case closely should know he murdered Reeva with direct intent. There's mountains of evidence and the weight of it all viewed together is proof he did and proof he lied through his back teeth about an intruder. Even children would not believe it, and that's because they are not hung up about looking at each piece of evidence separately under a microscope to see if that alone is proof beyond reasonable doubt. There is a thing called logic and common sense and being able to recognise that what someone is spouting is absolute bullcrap, juries use it all the time. Unfortunately, some but relatively few, thankfully, are not endowed with this ability.
...definition of proof in law...

a. The establishment of the truth or falsity of an allegation by evidence.

b. The evidence offered in support of or in contravention of an allegation.
 
Am still catching up here on the last few month's of posts.

Putting aside the compulsive lying topic for a moment, can anyone remember the previous Greenland debate.
JG had said/written that it should actually have been a verdict of dolus directus against a human being (albeit behind a door.)

can't find the link and can't remember the gist of his comments.

TIA

It was a radio interview - well worth listening to

https://radiochatter.wordpress.com/...-greenland-discusses-oscar-pistorius-release/

Pistorius knew his bullets would go through the door so he had direct intent to kill.
 
......you started off ok but when i came to "confessed killer"...! is there anything that "proves" that the intruder version is a lie ? .....i'm not making an subjective opinion like the majority of posts on here, i already have my own opinion of what i think happened, what i am trying to show is that as far as objective proof, evidence or fact regarding a deliberate murder, there is none....and so i can't see how on the basis of lack of evidence how his version can be disputed and he can be sent to prison for murder, moreover i think the case is a complete judicial shambles resulting in a unsatisfactory situation and that an appeal to the Con court is possible...

Tons of posts spelling out the "proof" you're asking for in this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?242350-Do-you-think-the-prosecutor-proved-the-case (including one written by YOU stating OP committed murder).

Happy reading!
 
It was a radio interview - well worth listening to

https://radiochatter.wordpress.com/...-greenland-discusses-oscar-pistorius-release/

Pistorius knew his bullets would go through the door so he had direct intent to kill.

Cheers Tortoise.
Ironically I originally found this interview and posted it on WS last year. After a good while of not engaging with the case on WS I forget all the angles. ( That's probably a good thing really....like a brain cleanse!)

I do recall the DJ responsible for the interview has since been trolled mercilessly via Twitter by Pistorians.
 
Tons of posts spelling out the "proof" you're asking for in this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?242350-Do-you-think-the-prosecutor-proved-the-case (including one written by YOU stating OP committed murder).

Happy reading!
....my personal opinion has nothing to do with what i'm saying about proof i mentioned in a post above the word "objective", anyone who has followed this case will know there is no objective proof or evidence to back up one version or another, i have also stated in the past that i am keeping my mind open as to what happened and i intend to continue to do so....we may well all have our opinions but they are based more on instinct rather than evidence.....
 
...definition of proof in law...

a. The establishment of the truth or falsity of an allegation by evidence.

b. The evidence offered in support of or in contravention of an allegation.

Good start, now define "evidence."

But in the mean time, let's approach this from a new perspective. Given that DD of Reeva has been ruled out, the judges still have to make a decision.

Of the choices in front of them, which would you decide if you were in their shoes:

A. JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE:
1) Can you declare it a justifiable homicide just because the accused claimed to have held the honest belief that they were acting lawfully in self-defense and thought they were lawfully entitled to shoot and kill someone they mistakenly believed to be an intruder, even though the circumstances did not substantiate any basis for this belief and the actions of the accused exceeded the bounds of lawful self-defense?

2) Did the prosecution establish beyond a reasonable doubt (sorry that's all you get in cases like this) that the accused could not have held an honest belief under the circumstances-- did the accused honestly believe that they had no other choice but to kill someone in order to save their own life? Would they have honestly thought under those circumstances that they were acting in lawful self-defense by killing the person behind the door?

B. NEGLIGENCE:
1) If the accused is not entitled to an acquittal for a justifiable homicide under lawful self-defense, was he negligent in some way that led to the unintended consequence of the death of the person behind the door?

C) INTENT: If the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused could not have held a genuine and honest belief that there was legitimate basis for killing in self-defense, then the court must determine if there was some form of intent to kill:

1) DD-- The State could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oscar intended to kill Reeva specifically, and he is no longer on trial for that. So, no need to worry about proof of intention in that regard.

2) DI-- Dolus indirectus or indeterminatus is technically not the appropriate charge here, so disregard.

3) DE-- Did he shoot four rounds into that door in an unlawful and unjustified response to a mistaken threat with reckless disregard whether or not someone behind that door might get killed??
 
......you started off ok but when i came to "confessed killer"...! is there anything that "proves" that the intruder version is a lie ? .....i'm not making an subjective opinion like the majority of posts on here, i already have my own opinion of what i think happened, what i am trying to show is that as far as objective proof, evidence or fact regarding a deliberate murder, there is none....and so i can't see how on the basis of lack of evidence how his version can be disputed and he can be sent to prison for murder, moreover i think the case is a complete judicial shambles resulting in a unsatisfactory situation and that an appeal to the Con court is possible...

We no longer have to worry about proving or disproving his intruder story-- Masipa has established a factual finding that his intruder story was reasonably possibly true and that the State did not prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was not.

So going forward from that factual finding, the SCA and all of us, are obliged to respect that finding as fact. No proof necessary. No one can legally dispute his version that it was reasonably possibly true that he thought an intruder might have entered the house.

Nor is there any further legal question of a deliberate murder of Reeva. Masipa also ruled that the State did not prove their case for a premeditated murder of Reeva. So that horse has left the barn. (Yes, some people certainly still believe he murdered her intentionally and want to continue to discuss the case in those terms.) But for the court case, we can forget about any need for proof or evidence that he intended to murder her directly.

What's left? Are you concerned that the SCA had to pick up where Masipa left off and determine whether or not his PPD claim was legitimate? Is it unacceptable for the court to have to evaluate whether or not there was any legitimate basis for the accused to have thought they were lawfully entitled to kill someone. Or can anyone justify a homicide by simply claiming they were in fear for their life?

Is it not necessary to ask them "Why?" "What made you think that?" And then to (objectively) evaluate the circumstances that made them (subjectively) believe they had to kill someone in defense of their life.

The court will have to rely on the evidence presented in court (Mangena's ballistic report for instance) and principally on the testimony of the accused (I fired because I heard a noise and I thought someone might be coming out to get me.)

Taking all the testimony and physical evidence the court has to evaluate if the accused had any basis for their subjective beliefs that the use of lethal force was warranted under the circumstances that they themselves have described. Especially relying on physical evidence (the door/the bullet-ridden body) the court must determine if this evidence coincides with the testimony of the accused. (Did he shoot uncontrollably? If so, is it possible for there to have been such a tight grouping and for 3 out of 4 bullets to hit their target.

In this case, it was virtually impossible for the defense to refute that Oscar would have known he was not lawfully entitled to fire four rounds into a closed door without knowing who was on the other side and whether or not they even presented any potential threat.

His unfounded misapprehensions did not qualify as legal justifications for killing someone in putative private defense. He could not meet the legal standards for the defense. Therefore he was guilty of either negligently (unintentionally) killing someone or intentionally killing them. Under South African law, his deliberate actions in firing four rounds at the closed door of a small toilet cubicle, at a minimum meant that he did not care if someone was killed. This is not negligence. It is DE.
 
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