Overkill - Overkill in a homicide refers to the use of excessive force or brutality beyond what is necessary to cause death.

[CloudedTruth]

Excellent list. Very interesting take on the 911 call.

I do have to add a fifth item to my list.

The Blue Suitcase
If an intruder had come in and scoped out the house, he would have realized that the butler pantry door was the one closest to the basement and led to the quickest cover under the trees. Even if he had exited through the train room window, it is not credible that he would have stood on the suitcase when there was a small chair in the train room, and a stepping stool, and a higher chair near the stairs, any of which would have provided more stable footing, and all three of which he would have passed at least twice (crime scene video, beginning at 00.51).

I wonder if they tested that specific suitcase as to whether it would hold the weight of an adult male. One would think they would, but you never know. I can't seem to find anything that speaks to that.

Another point that deserves mention is what one neighbor told police when they were canvassing on the 26th. The neighbor in question had dogs, and she indicated that they always barked when there was anyone in the alley. Always. They did not bark that night. But they were barking at police who were in the alley.

 

[GRT]

Yes, this has been reported locally as what Boulder PD and the DA have indicated. There is such a small amount left at this point, as they have tested 3 times already. I've also read that apparently the labs that LE uses are not quite as up to date with the latest technology as some private labs are. I would imagine that the cost for the latest technology at a private lab might not be in the budget.

I think that's true about LE labs and the cost of private labs.

However, there is a private investigative group that formed after Smit died to carry on the investigation. It has retired detectives and I think some of Smit's children, or at least one of them. Anyway, the investigative team offered to pay for the DNA testing at a private lab with the latest technology but BPD said no.

I wish they'd allow the advanced testing. What good is it to continue to hold onto the DNA after all these years? If the killer is still alive and *could* be caught via DNA, they're just running out the clock. It'd be nice to see some justice, even though the killer could be old now and would not live long in prison.

This story on FOX talks about the team, the offer for private testing, and the only unredacted copy (they claim) of the previous test, which is kind of interesting.

JonBenet Ramsey case: Newly unearthed documents reveal DNA did not match key players early in unsolved slaying

Unearthed documents from early in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation show DNA evidence recovered under her fingernails and clothes was not a match for members of the family and others close to the case just weeks after the crime.

www.foxnews.com

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I did a little digging about this, and it seems that it was Fleet White who moved the suitcase.

One can only wonder what FW thinks of this ongoing narrative of the intruder using the suitcase that he knows that he moved by the window and nor the chair or the stool were used.? At least the Ramsey's lawyers couldn't keep him from talking to LE.
He seems like a stand up guy.

 

[Meara]

Another thought about the placement of the suitcase. For stability, wouldn’t you want to place it closer to the wall and width-wise so you can put both feet on it next to each other while climbing out? Even then, it defies logic to use the suitcase when a chair and stool were nearby. After all, he had all this time to plan his escape.

There just isn’t anything about the intruder theory that makes any sense.

FWIW, I wrote this yesterday afternoon - in a rush, though, and I didn't actually post it. Ah, well. Questions have been answered.

Assuming an intruder, yes, suitcase against the wall makes more sense. Fleet White said he moved the suitcase, though, so I don't think the suitcase-perpendicular-to-the-wall that we see in photos is the original position. Or did he put it back? Anybody know? That said, I still think that if an intruder had spent time in the house while the family was gone, more likely than not he'd have taken care to figure out the easiest exit - and that window wasn't it!

 

[CloudedTruth]

One can only wonder what FW thinks of this ongoing narrative of the intruder using the suitcase that he knows that he moved by the window and nor the chair or the stool were used.? At least the Ramsey's lawyers couldn't keep him from talking to LE.
He seems like a stand up guy.

Yes, he does seem like a stand-up guy. And of course the R's dropped them as friends when Fleet began to question why they were hiding behind their lawyers and a PR team instead of cooperating with police.

He was also not treated well by DA Hunter, who allowed the Nancy Krebs sexual assault story to be spread around in the media. Anyone who questioned the R's stories and credibility was the enemy. Hunter should have been called on the carpet for his unprofessional and biased behavior. It most definitely impacted the case.

 

[TizerisT]

That said, I still think that if an intruder had spent time in the house while the family was gone, more likely than not he'd have taken care to figure out the easiest exit - and that window wasn't it!

Surely the most hidden exit would be preferable for an intruder who knows he is still undiscovered and has time and space. If you're being chased by someone, yes take the easiest exit. Otherwise, the basement window, given that it's covered by a grate allowing you to peep over before emerging, is definitely the wiser move.

 

[GRT]

Yes, he does seem like a stand-up guy. And of course the R's dropped them as friends when Fleet began to question why they were hiding behind their lawyers and a PR team instead of cooperating with police.

He was also not treated well by DA Hunter, who allowed the Nancy Krebs sexual assault story to be spread around in the media. Anyone who questioned the R's stories and credibility was the enemy. Hunter should have been called on the carpet for his unprofessional and biased behavior. It most definitely impacted the case.

It's probably natural that the couples' friendship devolved when both couples were among the last to see JBR alive, both were (at one time) considered suspects, and FW was with JR when they found JBR's body. It's like both couples were suspicious of the other.
Reportedly, the fallout started with PW getting into an argument with Ms WestMoreland and then leaving their home in Atlanta to stay at a hotel before JBR's funeral.

PW was highly stressed and reportedly said, "I'd never been to the South before," Priscilla says. "It was very different from Colorado or California. Very pretentious. Maids. Everybody was drinking champagne. I finally looked at the woman who was supposed to be our hostess and said, 'We can't stay here. You don't know what we've just been through, and you're worried about whether we're using your Baccarat crystal glasses?' So all of a sudden, we were the crazy ones."

It is odd that FW moved the suitcase into a position that would make it seem less likely that an intruder used it to climb out, but it was probably innocent. Maybe he was looking for evidence? But, FW did state that an intruder must have used it to climb out.

I just put all the odd behavior from everyone back then down to stress.

I know the Whites, like the Ramsey's, were exonerated. But I'm not sure if that was based on DNA evidence.

 

[GRT]

Surely the most hidden exit would be preferable for an intruder who knows he is still undiscovered and has time and space. If you're being chased by someone, yes take the easiest exit. Otherwise, the basement window, given that it's covered by a grate allowing you to peep over before emerging, is definitely the wiser move.

That makes good sense. Yes, if the intruder was being chased--the nearest door would have likely been the first option.

But, if he was trying to keep his dastardly deed from becoming known right away, he would have tried to sneak out to buy some time. That gave him the opportunity to slip away in the darkness.

 

[GRT]

FWIW, I wrote this yesterday afternoon - in a rush, though, and I didn't actually post it. Ah, well. Questions have been answered.

Assuming an intruder, yes, suitcase against the wall makes more sense. Fleet White said he moved the suitcase, though, so I don't think the suitcase-perpendicular-to-the-wall that we see in photos is the original position. Or did he put it back? Anybody know? That said, I still think that if an intruder had spent time in the house while the family was gone, more likely than not he'd have taken care to figure out the easiest exit - and that window wasn't it!

My thought was that if the suitcase was on wheels, when the intruder climbed out, it might have scooted. But then FW said he moved it--maybe to be able to stand closer to the wall and get a better look in the window well?

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

I have been wondering which thread to park this response in, this seems like a good one since it mentioned BR. I cannot rule out BR as the perpetrator. For those who say he is too young for sexualized behavior or too weak to strike hard. I counter that I worked in a residential treatment facility and we had some kids who were 13 who did sexual acts to others that would curdle your stomach, and some of them started as young as 8 or 9. I wouldn't leave them alone with my dog let alone my child. It has already been proven that PR and JR didn't make sure their kids were in bed that night. If this was a habit who knows what was happening, or what BR was watching on TV that he may have mimicked or expanded on. I also worked with people with developmental disabilities and these individuals seem to have super human strength. If BR really is on the spectrum this could fit. IMO he is still very much a contender as the murderer.

 

[Choices]

I have been wondering which thread to park this response in, this seems like a good one since it mentioned BR. I cannot rule out BR as the perpetrator. For those who say he is too young for sexualized behavior or too weak to strike hard. I counter that I worked in a residential treatment facility and we had some kids who were 13 who did sexual acts to others that would curdle your stomach, and some of them started as young as 8 or 9. I wouldn't leave them alone with my dog let alone my child. It has already been proven that PR and JR didn't make sure their kids were in bed that night. If this was a habit who knows what was happening, or what BR was watching on TV that he may have mimicked or expanded on. I also worked with people with developmental disabilities and these individuals seem to have super human strength. If BR really is on the spectrum this could fit. IMO he is still very much a contender as the murderer.

The parent theories seemed more out there. BR being the culprit did occur. To what extent, hard to say. I thought of the two UK boys who murdered James Bulger leaving him on train tracks - premeditated - making one wonder what BR could have been capable of, albeit a very different mode of murder. There's a black and white photo showing a model plane hanging from the ceiling of his bedroom with what looks like white cord hanging off it. New things keep popping up while looking into this case.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

The parent theories seemed more out there. BR being the culprit did occur. To what extent, hard to say. I thought of the two UK boys who murdered James Bulger leaving him on train tracks - premeditated - making one wonder what BR could have been capable of, albeit a very different mode of murder. There's a black and white photo showing a model plane hanging from the ceiling of his bedroom with what looks like white cord hanging off it. New things keep popping up while looking into this case.

I have thought for a long time it was PR. However that TV special (can't remember which channel) that presented BR as a possible subject made a lot of sense to me. I have still leaned mostly PR. Lately I have been rewatching JR and PR interviews without sound because I want to focus on facial and body language. It looked like the early days PR looked drugged, but later interviews she looked on the verge of tears and disgusted with having to lie about what happened. Another reason I think this is JR tends to take over the interviews. My guess is to control the narrative. He lacks emotion even in his eyes. Like he dissociates from what happened. I know everyone thinks PR was the monster, even me at times. What if she wasn't? What if BR killed JB and all this crazy staging and RN were JRs idea because his business reputation. Maybe he dictated the RN to PR. I no longer think either JR or PR would protect each other. But both would definitely protect BR. This is obviously just my opinion and perceptions, but I am leaning more towards BR lately.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I have thought for a long time it was PR. However that TV special (can't remember which channel) that presented BR as a possible subject made a lot of sense to me. I have still leaned mostly PR. Lately I have been rewatching JR and PR interviews without sound because I want to focus on facial and body language. It looked like the early days PR looked drugged, but later interviews she looked on the verge of tears and disgusted with having to lie about what happened. Another reason I think this is JR tends to take over the interviews. My guess is to control the narrative. He lacks emotion even in his eyes. Like he dissociates from what happened. I know everyone thinks PR was the monster, even me at times. What if she wasn't? What if BR killed JB and all this crazy staging and RN were JRs idea because his business reputation. Maybe he dictated the RN to PR. I no longer think either JR or PR would protect each other. But both would definitely protect BR. This is obviously just my opinion and perceptions, but I am leaning more towards BR lately.

I still tend towards moving between all of the R's as the culprit depending upon what information I am digesting at the time. All of the theories (except IDI) have their convincing aspects. And most likely this was at least one of the reasons why the DA declined to act on the indictments and prosecute. There were no clear indicators as to who did what. I have read that the GJ were hoping that would become more clear at trial, but of course that never happened.

BR filed two lawsuits after the CBS program aired. One against forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz, and then subsequently against CBS and the production company Critical Content, LLC for $750 million dollars. All of the experts who participated in the program were named as defendants in the suit. The suit against CBS was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.

Interestingly, a Michigan attorney (where the lawsuits were filed) who was not connected to the case described the dollar amount of $750 million "extraordinary". While others commented it was not uncommon for a high figure to be asked for in defamation suits, as damage to one's reputation is hard to quantify and that it is often more of a symbolic statement rather than a realistic expectation. Aaron Larson, the Michigan attorney (unconnected to the case) however pointed out that it was "the sort of damages claim most commonly associated with an effort to generate attention and publicity". And that most plaintiffs suing for defamation or slander are concerned about attracting attention to the (allegedly) false accusations. But he also acknowledged that media attention in such cases can be beneficial, by calling attention to a judgment enforced retraction, apology or settlement, if it is anticipated that the defendant has a good chance of winning the case.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

I still tend towards moving between all of the R's as the culprit depending upon what information I am digesting at the time. All of the theories (except IDI) have their convincing aspects. And most likely this was at least one of the reasons why the DA declined to act on the indictments and prosecute. There were no clear indicators as to who did what. I have read that the GJ were hoping that would become more clear at trial, but of course that never happened.

BR filed two lawsuits after the CBS program aired. One against forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz, and then subsequently against CBS and the production company Critical Content, LLC for $750 million dollars. All of the experts who participated in the program were named as defendants in the suit. The suit against CBS was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.

Interestingly, a Michigan attorney (where the lawsuits were filed) who was not connected to the case described the dollar amount of $750 million "extraordinary". While others commented it was not uncommon for a high figure to be asked for in defamation suits, as damage to one's reputation is hard to quantify and that it is often more of a symbolic statement rather than a realistic expectation. Aaron Larson, the Michigan attorney (unconnected to the case) however pointed out that it was "the sort of damages claim most commonly associated with an effort to generate attention and publicity". And that most plaintiffs suing for defamation or slander are concerned about attracting attention to the (allegedly) false accusations. But he also acknowledged that media attention in such cases can be beneficial, by calling attention to a judgment enforced retraction, apology or settlement, if it is anticipated that the defendant has a good chance of winning the case.

Agreed a lot of my thoughts on what happened change frequently I even have a new scenario forming in my head after reading several more of the different threads here. It is possible that BR was angry with her and attacked her. Hitting her with his train tracks. He may have pushed her at some point and she screamed when falling and hit her head on something maybe a golf club or something. When she didn't eventually get up BR went and got JR and/or PR. They argued about what to do. Since she wasn't responsive JR decided she was dead and strangled her. His plan was probably to go dump her body somewhere. While he was staging he had PR write the ransom note. This probably took most of the night. So I assume they never went to bed. I think that PR was not ok just dumping JB somewhere and called 911 too early. It could be her and JR arguing about that at the end of the 911 call. So now JR can't dump the body. So he decided they would call their friends to come over not just to contaminate the evidence, but for an audience when he found her body.

As for BR now I doubt any of his decisions are his own. I feel like JR and possibly JAR dictate BR's life. His interview with Dr. Phil makes me feel like he is stuck emotionally at age 9 or 10 in a way. I mean if he accidentally caused this by fighting with her, the emotional and mental trauma he endured has got to have stood in the way of him maturing into a functioning adult in social ways. Just another opinion to add to the mix.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Agreed a lot of my thoughts on what happened change frequently I even have a new scenario forming in my head after reading several more of the different threads here. It is possible that BR was angry with her and attacked her. Hitting her with his train tracks. He may have pushed her at some point and she screamed when falling and hit her head on something maybe a golf club or something. When she didn't eventually get up BR went and got JR and/or PR. They argued about what to do. Since she wasn't responsive JR decided she was dead and strangled her. His plan was probably to go dump her body somewhere. While he was staging he had PR write the ransom note. This probably took most of the night. So I assume they never went to bed. I think that PR was not ok just dumping JB somewhere and called 911 too early. It could be her and JR arguing about that at the end of the 911 call. So now JR can't dump the body. So he decided they would call their friends to come over not just to contaminate the evidence, but for an audience when he found her body.

As for BR now I doubt any of his decisions are his own. I feel like JR and possibly JAR dictate BR's life. His interview with Dr. Phil makes me feel like he is stuck emotionally at age 9 or 10 in a way. I mean if he accidentally caused this by fighting with her, the emotional and mental trauma he endured has got to have stood in the way of him maturing into a functioning adult in social ways. Just another opinion to add to the mix.

I think your theory is very plausible. While I struggle with what may have been a mercy killing, there are many unknowns. Considering the blow to the head was so severe, pulse, blood pressure, and respiration could have been very very faint and not detected or they may have waited for a longer amount of time than 45 minutes to see if she had any meaningful signs of life. Some of the coroner report may have a little wiggle room. (Little). imho.She may also been brutally attacked and assaulted by one sick person. JR has not been my prime suspect but as I see the ease in which he lies, I wonder what personality disorder lies beneath that steely exterior.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

I think your theory is very plausible. While I struggle with what may have been a mercy killing, there are many unknowns. Considering the blow to the head was so severe, pulse, blood pressure, and respiration could have been very very faint and not detected or they may have waited for a longer amount of time than 45 minutes to see if she had any meaningful signs of life. Some of the coroner report may have a little wiggle room. (Little). imho.She may also been brutally attacked and assaulted by one sick person. JR has not been my prime suspect but as I see the ease in which he lies, I wonder what personality disorder lies beneath that steely exterior.

There all these crazy scenarios. Even the false 911 call could have been the original head wound and because she was coherent and responsive they quit the call. Who really knows? A fight with anyone could have aggravted it. Or she lost responsiveness in the car on the way home. I think if it was an accident just call 911 and tell the truth. Why make it an ordeal that snowballed into what it is now. It just sucks that we will probably never know, and a little girl lost her life and became something she shouldn't have after death because of her parents.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

There all these crazy scenarios. Even the false 911 call could have been the original head wound and because she was coherent and responsive they quit the call. Who really knows? A fight with anyone could have aggravted it. Or she lost responsiveness in the car on the way home. I think if it was an accident just call 911 and tell the truth. Why make it an ordeal that snowballed into what it is now. It just sucks that we will probably never know, and a little girl lost her life and became something she shouldn't have after death because of her parents.

For the reason you stated, I don't think it was an accident. I believe it was a fit of rage and that being the reason medical help was not called along with prior SA that would be discovered. There was just too much there and would result in an investigation.
The head wound happening elsewhere is interesting. I'm not sure if that could have been kept under wraps with amount of people there plus the severity, while not a bleeding wound, the result was catastrophic. All points to ponder for sure.

 

[Meara]

CloudedTruth, Sweet dreams, ispy,

These are interesting ideas, for sure, none of which had occurred to me, so thanks all around.

I was focused on PR and JR for a long time, then finally decided on BDI some years ago. Now, I keep changing my mind again as I sift and re-sort the information. Like you, ispy, I am troubled by what a smooth liar JR is, and has been for years, going back at least to his two year affair while married to Lucinda. He blamed the affair on the mistress and began dating Patsy before he broke up with her. Talk about red flags. PR was no better. Early on, I could understand weird behavior and deception related to JBR's murder if the family was covering up. IIRC, the story that that made me realize she was fine with deception well before the murder was the story about replacing JBR's puppy, Jacques and pretending it was the same dog. I mean, who does that? And then I learned there were other "you've got to be kidding" stories. What a pair.

Did PR have NPD? Is JR a covert N, and were PR's excesses a kind of hysteria in response to his controlingness? Were/Are both narcissistically disordered? And, if so, how might each of those permutations have shaped the events of that Christmas? No answers, just things I wonder about.

As I'm writing I 'm suddenly remembering something very chilling about JR. In one of the taped interviews after PR's death, the interviewer asked him something about PR and JBR - was he able to remember the happier times, or did it console him to know they were at rest - something along those lines. And he said he didn't think about them. It was a real jaw drop moment, but he didn't appear to have any awareness of that. It was as though they were a problem he simply didn't have any more. How odd that he's so visible and vocal now.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

CloudedTruth, Sweet dreams, ispy,

These are interesting ideas, for sure, none of which had occurred to me, so thanks all around.

I was focused on PR and JR for a long time, then finally decided on BDI some years ago. Now, I keep changing my mind again as I sift and re-sort the information. Like you, ispy, I am troubled by what a smooth liar JR is, and has been for years, going back at least to his two year affair while married to Lucinda. He blamed the affair on the mistress and began dating Patsy before he broke up with her. Talk about red flags. PR was no better. Early on, I could understand weird behavior and deception related to JBR's murder if the family was covering up. IIRC, the story that that made me realize she was fine with deception well before the murder was the story about replacing JBR's puppy, Jacques and pretending it was the same dog. I mean, who does that? And then I learned there were other "you've got to be kidding" stories. What a pair.

Did PR have NPD? Is JR a covert N, and were PR's excesses a kind of hysteria in response to his controlingness? Were/Are both narcissistically disordered? And, if so, how might each of those permutations have shaped the events of that Christmas? No answers, just things I wonder about.

As I'm writing I 'm suddenly remembering something very chilling about JR. In one of the taped interviews after PR's death, the interviewer asked him something about PR and JBR - was he able to remember the happier times, or did it console him to know they were at rest - something along those lines. And he said he didn't think about them. It was a real jaw drop moment, but he didn't appear to have any awareness of that. It was as though they were a problem he simply didn't have any more. How odd that he's so visible and vocal now.

JR not thinking about them doesn't surprise me. As I have been watching their interviews without sound, I at least see human emotions from PR. I don't see any emotion from JR whatsoever. Even when he smiles there's nothing there.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

CloudedTruth, Sweet dreams, ispy,

These are interesting ideas, for sure, none of which had occurred to me, so thanks all around.

I was focused on PR and JR for a long time, then finally decided on BDI some years ago. Now, I keep changing my mind again as I sift and re-sort the information. Like you, ispy, I am troubled by what a smooth liar JR is, and has been for years, going back at least to his two year affair while married to Lucinda. He blamed the affair on the mistress and began dating Patsy before he broke up with her. Talk about red flags. PR was no better. Early on, I could understand weird behavior and deception related to JBR's murder if the family was covering up. IIRC, the story that that made me realize she was fine with deception well before the murder was the story about replacing JBR's puppy, Jacques and pretending it was the same dog. I mean, who does that? And then I learned there were other "you've got to be kidding" stories. What a pair.

Did PR have NPD? Is JR a covert N, and were PR's excesses a kind of hysteria in response to his controlingness? Were/Are both narcissistically disordered? And, if so, how might each of those permutations have shaped the events of that Christmas? No answers, just things I wonder about.

As I'm writing I 'm suddenly remembering something very chilling about JR. In one of the taped interviews after PR's death, the interviewer asked him something about PR and JBR - was he able to remember the happier times, or did it console him to know they were at rest - something along those lines. And he said he didn't think about them. It was a real jaw drop moment, but he didn't appear to have any awareness of that. It was as though they were a problem he simply didn't have any more. How odd that he's so visible and vocal now.

I've cut JR some slack because he lost 2 children in the span of 5 years. That has to have an effect on a person. I've tried to judge his behavior through a grief-stricken lens.
I'm not so sure now. Like you, I see a cunning liar and manipulator. That doesn't make for good character but it also could make a father's determination to spare another child any more further trauma than the responsibility of causing the death of his sister. And I will also add guilt. IF BR was responsible, JR had been MIA. He was not taking control of the problem that was brewing. He seems to like control as you stated.
That's got to burn his brain up if true. Well, maybe....
I know it's not funny but I find myself almost chuckling when I watch him manipulate interviews. I think to myself, this is how sociopathic CEOs operate. They are 10 steps ahead of the questions they know will be asked of them and they are so quick and cunning, no one knows what hit them. Sociopath or NPD maybe malignant?