Overkill - Overkill in a homicide refers to the use of excessive force or brutality beyond what is necessary to cause death.

I've cut JR some slack because he lost 2 children in the span of 5 years. That has to have an effect on a person. I've tried to judge his behavior through a grief-stricken lens.
I'm not so sure now. Like you, I see a cunning liar and manipulator. That doesn't make for good character but it also could make a father's determination to spare another child any more further trauma than the responsibility of causing the death of his sister. And I will also add guilt. IF BR was responsible, JR had been MIA. He was not taking control of the problem that was brewing. He seems to like control as you stated.
That's got to burn his brain up if true. Well, maybe....
I know it's not funny but I find myself almost chuckling when I watch him manipulate interviews. I think to myself, this is how sociopathic CEOs operate. They are 10 steps ahead of the questions they know will be asked of them and they are so quick and cunning, no one knows what hit them. Sociopath or NPD maybe malignant?
I agree losing 2 children must be incredibly painful. While getting my Bachelor's in Psychology. I learned that people who have one personality disorder can have a mix of others as well. So it wouldn't surprise me if he was NPD with sociopathic tendencies.
 
I agree losing 2 children must be incredibly painful. While getting my Bachelor's in Psychology. I learned that people who have one personality disorder can have a mix of others as well. So it wouldn't surprise me if he was NPD with sociopathic tendencies.
That shoe could definitely fit!
And if true, BR may have picked up some skills from example. ( Lying) There are people who thought BR wouldn't be capable of lying in the interviews.
 
A far simpler version could be that BR, in a fit of anger at JBR, struck her with a weapon that caused the head injury.

The parents may have thought she was dead from the wound and were placed in the unimaginable situation of either contacting 911 for their daughter's injury, thereby bringing police into the matter. Or, in an effort to protect their remaining child, stage an elaborate, yet amateurish kidnap plot.

“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
― Arthur Conan Doyle
 
A far simpler version could be that BR, in a fit of anger at JBR, struck her with a weapon that caused the head injury.

The parents may have thought she was dead from the wound and were placed in the unimaginable situation of either contacting 911 for their daughter's injury, thereby bringing police into the matter. Or, in an effort to protect their remaining child, stage an elaborate, yet amateurish kidnap plot.

“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
― Arthur Conan Doyle
I tend to agree with this theory the strongest. I stated above that I thought vital signs may have been faint and their may have been more/less time between the head injury and strangulation.
 
A far simpler version could be that BR, in a fit of anger at JBR, struck her with a weapon that caused the head injury.

The parents may have thought she was dead from the wound and were placed in the unimaginable situation of either contacting 911 for their daughter's injury, thereby bringing police into the matter. Or, in an effort to protect their remaining child, stage an elaborate, yet amateurish kidnap plot.

“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
― Arthur Conan Doyle
Agreed, I think above I had sort of the same hypothesis except with BR pushing her accidentally causing the head wound. Either way it's a very plausible scenario. Because I used to work with kids in a treatment facility, I think BR could have done the other stuff too. However the rest seems more out of a crime novel. I have heard it said that JR was into crime novels and had a John Douglas book by the bed. I have never really heard this before. Does anyone know the source for this claim?

Here's another interesting question. Someone on another thread mentioned where was PR? Speculating she went out again after they got home. What if JR went out again too separate from PR? The kids would be home alone. And of course both parents eventually coming home to this. I am not sure I buy it, but it's possible.
 
There all these crazy scenarios. Even the false 911 call could have been the original head wound and because she was coherent and responsive they quit the call. Who really knows? A fight with anyone could have aggravted it. Or she lost responsiveness in the car on the way home. I think if it was an accident just call 911 and tell the truth. Why make it an ordeal that snowballed into what it is now. It just sucks that we will probably never know, and a little girl lost her life and became something she shouldn't have after death because of her parents.
The false 911 call is certainly yet another event that contributes to the overall mystery of everything that went down in the days before that fateful Christmas night. It's still debated to this day because of what ultimately happened and how the explanations of that call have been handled. It was supposedly Fleet White who was making calls about prescriptions for his mother, but I don't think he has spoken directly about it, which adds to the mystery. It could have been perfectly innocent, just a misdial as has been indicated.

Seeing that the call was made at the party at the R's house on 12/23, I think it's very unlikely that the blow to JBR's head could have occurred that early. The medical experts seem to be in agreement that the blow caused such severe damage that she would have been rendered unconscious and most likely never regained consciousness. As there was inter-cranial bleeding and swelling of the brain going on, her condition would have deteriorated fairly quickly. It is also likely that after the blow to the head, she was thought to be already dead. Signs of life could have been so minimal as to be undetectable by persons without medical knowledge / training.
 
The false 911 call is certainly yet another event that contributes to the overall mystery of everything that went down in the days before that fateful Christmas night. It's still debated to this day because of what ultimately happened and how the explanations of that call have been handled. It was supposedly Fleet White who was making calls about prescriptions for his mother, but I don't think he has spoken directly about it, which adds to the mystery. It could have been perfectly innocent, just a misdial as has been indicated.

Seeing that the call was made at the party at the R's house on 12/23, I think it's very unlikely that the blow to JBR's head could have occurred that early. The medical experts seem to be in agreement that the blow caused such severe damage that she would have been rendered unconscious and most likely never regained consciousness. As there was inter-cranial bleeding and swelling of the brain going on, her condition would have deteriorated fairly quickly. It is also likely that after the blow to the head, she was thought to be already dead. Signs of life could have been so minimal as to be undetectable by persons without medical knowledge / training.
IMO I think the false 911 call is important. I think something happened that night that startled FW enough to call 911. But JR or PR talked him out of it somehow. FW may have shared that info with BPD when JR and PR accused him of the murder. It may not have been shared with the public.
 
I really think Occam's Razor is right on this one.

JBR's parents doted on their children, and if BR smacked JBR hard enough to crack her skull (highly unlikely), the parents would have immediately called 911 and passed it off as an accident.

The wild idea that they didn't want BR to be in trouble so they strangled their injured daughter with a garrote is beyond the pale.

The intruder theory is the only one that makes any sense, but LE fudged up the scene to such a degree (plus the house was a mess) that any slamdunk evidence was missed.
 
I am willing to entertain the intruder theory, but there are many questions. Why write the ransom note on site? Why was she in the basement? Wouldn't a kidnapper just grab her and walk out the front door? A 6 yr old in not going to struggle so much an adult has to hit her in the head to subdue her. If really there to kill her why hide her in the wine cellar. Wouldn't just leave her where she was killed? Intruder theory is just as convoluted and full of speculation as the family did it. Also if the whole family is home an intruder could be caught at any time. BR admittedly was playing with toys in the basement late that night. Wouldn't he have run into said intruder? With the house in that much of a mess the intruder would have tripped over all kinds of stuff possibly waking the whole household. I don't buy that he snuck out of the house quietly in the dark.
 
CloudedTruth, Sweet dreams, ispy,

These are interesting ideas, for sure, none of which had occurred to me, so thanks all around.

I was focused on PR and JR for a long time, then finally decided on BDI some years ago. Now, I keep changing my mind again as I sift and re-sort the information. Like you, ispy, I am troubled by what a smooth liar JR is, and has been for years, going back at least to his two year affair while married to Lucinda. He blamed the affair on the mistress and began dating Patsy before he broke up with her. Talk about red flags. PR was no better. Early on, I could understand weird behavior and deception related to JBR's murder if the family was covering up. IIRC, the story that that made me realize she was fine with deception well before the murder was the story about replacing JBR's puppy, Jacques and pretending it was the same dog. I mean, who does that? And then I learned there were other "you've got to be kidding" stories. What a pair.

Did PR have NPD? Is JR a covert N, and were PR's excesses a kind of hysteria in response to his controlingness? Were/Are both narcissistically disordered? And, if so, how might each of those permutations have shaped the events of that Christmas? No answers, just things I wonder about.

As I'm writing I 'm suddenly remembering something very chilling about JR. In one of the taped interviews after PR's death, the interviewer asked him something about PR and JBR - was he able to remember the happier times, or did it console him to know they were at rest - something along those lines. And he said he didn't think about them. It was a real jaw drop moment, but he didn't appear to have any awareness of that. It was as though they were a problem he simply didn't have any more. How odd that he's so visible and vocal now.
I think it's very likely that both JR & PR have / had NPD. Given what we know about Nedra's very prickly personality, it kind of fits. Don't know much about JR's parents, other than his father was a decorated WWII pilot and after the war held impressive positions in a few aeronautics commissions. He apparently "ruled" the Michigan Aeronautics Commission with an iron fist and was described as a "Czar" in that regard. Some big shoes for a son to fill and a reputation to live up to.

There is an interesting connection to a very unsavory history of a Michigan Island that I just became aware of. North Fox Island was a privately owned island with an airstrip. James Dudley Ramsey as the Director of the Michigan Aeronautics Commission would have been responsible for oversight for that airstrip. There had been a charity boys camp established on the island, which apparently was using Michigan tax dollars to promote the camp. The camp was actually a cover for a pedophile network that was being run on the island by a man named Francis Sheldon. Sheldon's home base was in Charlevoix, MI. Sheldon also had a 2nd home in Aspen, CO. There are some other interesting "coincidences" where it is possible the R family intersects with Sheldon and a pilot by the name of Stephen Stanislaw, who's own daughter related that her father was involved in trafficking of children, flying them out of Traverse Bay.

I am reminded of BR's drawing of his family within a mere couple of weeks after the death of JBR, where he only drew himself and his parents. And then responded to a question that he had already moved on from what had happened. Eerily similar to JR's response of not thinking about PR & JBR.
 
I think it's very likely that both JR & PR have / had NPD. Given what we know about Nedra's very prickly personality, it kind of fits. Don't know much about JR's parents, other than his father was a decorated WWII pilot and after the war held impressive positions in a few aeronautics commissions. He apparently "ruled" the Michigan Aeronautics Commission with an iron fist and was described as a "Czar" in that regard. Some big shoes for a son to fill and a reputation to live up to.

There is an interesting connection to a very unsavory history of a Michigan Island that I just became aware of. North Fox Island was a privately owned island with an airstrip. James Dudley Ramsey as the Director of the Michigan Aeronautics Commission would have been responsible for oversight for that airstrip. There had been a charity boys camp established on the island, which apparently was using Michigan tax dollars to promote the camp. The camp was actually a cover for a pedophile network that was being run on the island by a man named Francis Sheldon. Sheldon's home base was in Charlevoix, MI. Sheldon also had a 2nd home in Aspen, CO. There are some other interesting "coincidences" where it is possible the R family intersects with Sheldon and a pilot by the name of Stephen Stanislaw, who's own daughter related that her father was involved in trafficking of children, flying them out of Traverse Bay.

I am reminded of BR's drawing of his family within a mere couple of weeks after the death of JBR, where he only drew himself and his parents. And then responded to a question that he had already moved on from what had happened. Eerily similar to JR's response of not thinking about PR & JBR.
I have heard of the Michigan camp trafficking before. Not sure it applies to JB death unless an intruder did it. Possibly someone who knew JR'S dad might have been involved or even JR himself. However an intriguing side note.
 
I am willing to entertain the intruder theory, but there are many questions. Why write the ransom note on site? Why was she in the basement? Wouldn't a kidnapper just grab her and walk out the front door? A 6 yr old in not going to struggle so much an adult has to hit her in the head to subdue her. If really there to kill her why hide her in the wine cellar. Wouldn't just leave her where she was killed? Intruder theory is just as convoluted and full of speculation as the family did it. Also if the whole family is home an intruder could be caught at any time. BR admittedly was playing with toys in the basement late that night. Wouldn't he have run into said intruder? With the house in that much of a mess the intruder would have tripped over all kinds of stuff possibly waking the whole household. I don't buy that he snuck out of the house quietly in the dark.
I think people want to believe the intruder theory because they don't want to believe that someone in the family could have done this. But it happens far more often than most people feel comfortable with admitting, it's a horrific thought that's difficult for most people to wrap their brains around. The points you bring up are hard to dismiss, as are the actions of the R's themselves in the aftermath of that night. The IDI theory lacks evidence and the actions purported to have been made by this imaginary culprit make no sense. There is however evidence that points to at least 3 family members being awake that night far past what they told police. The timeline simply does not add up.
 
I have heard of the Michigan camp trafficking before. Not sure it applies to JB death unless an intruder did it. Possibly someone who knew JR'S dad might have been involved or even JR himself. However an intriguing side note.
It is an interesting side note in context with all the rumors of a pedophile ring in Boulder and the names that were associated. And the uncomfortable fact that JBR was being sexually abused by someone.
 
I think it's very likely that both JR & PR have / had NPD. Given what we know about Nedra's very prickly personality, it kind of fits. Don't know much about JR's parents, other than his father was a decorated WWII pilot and after the war held impressive positions in a few aeronautics commissions. He apparently "ruled" the Michigan Aeronautics Commission with an iron fist and was described as a "Czar" in that regard. Some big shoes for a son to fill and a reputation to live up to.

There is an interesting connection to a very unsavory history of a Michigan Island that I just became aware of. North Fox Island was a privately owned island with an airstrip. James Dudley Ramsey as the Director of the Michigan Aeronautics Commission would have been responsible for oversight for that airstrip. There had been a charity boys camp established on the island, which apparently was using Michigan tax dollars to promote the camp. The camp was actually a cover for a pedophile network that was being run on the island by a man named Francis Sheldon. Sheldon's home base was in Charlevoix, MI. Sheldon also had a 2nd home in Aspen, CO. There are some other interesting "coincidences" where it is possible the R family intersects with Sheldon and a pilot by the name of Stephen Stanislaw, who's own daughter related that her father was involved in trafficking of children, flying them out of Traverse Bay.

I am reminded of BR's drawing of his family within a mere couple of weeks after the death of JBR, where he only drew himself and his parents. And then responded to a question that he had already moved on from what had happened. Eerily similar to JR's response of not thinking about PR & JBR.
The charity boys camp caught my attention. As I stated my oldest son was about 4 years older than BR. The one thing I would never let him do is go to Boy Scouts or church camp. While I had no problem with the organizations, I felt that these were opportunities for predators to hide in plain site. ( My dad was also LE) It also was a time in our community that priest molestation was rampant and being exposed.
I can't help but think BR would be vulnerable to extra (bad) attention given his family dynamics .
Also A YouTube content creator had 2 boy scout Handbooks one From 1995 and 1 from 1997 And in both books the first few pages after contents was addressing sexual abuse. So there must have been some awareness overall at the time of abuse going on in the boy scouts.
 
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I think it's very likely that both JR & PR have / had NPD. Given what we know about Nedra's very prickly personality, it kind of fits. Don't know much about JR's parents, other than his father was a decorated WWII pilot and after the war held impressive positions in a few aeronautics commissions. He apparently "ruled" the Michigan Aeronautics Commission with an iron fist and was described as a "Czar" in that regard. Some big shoes for a son to fill and a reputation to live up to.

There is an interesting connection to a very unsavory history of a Michigan Island that I just became aware of. North Fox Island was a privately owned island with an airstrip. James Dudley Ramsey as the Director of the Michigan Aeronautics Commission would have been responsible for oversight for that airstrip. There had been a charity boys camp established on the island, which apparently was using Michigan tax dollars to promote the camp. The camp was actually a cover for a pedophile network that was being run on the island by a man named Francis Sheldon. Sheldon's home base was in Charlevoix, MI. Sheldon also had a 2nd home in Aspen, CO. There are some other interesting "coincidences" where it is possible the R family intersects with Sheldon and a pilot by the name of Stephen Stanislaw, who's own daughter related that her father was involved in trafficking of children, flying them out of Traverse Bay.

I am reminded of BR's drawing of his family within a mere couple of weeks after the death of JBR, where he only drew himself and his parents. And then responded to a question that he had already moved on from what had happened. Eerily similar to JR's response of not thinking about PR & JBR.

Just some additional odd facts about JR --

His father was widowed and later remarried. Ramsey, Sr.'s second wife was the mother of JR's first wife, Lucinda Pasch. Thus, his ex-mother-in-law became his step-mother and both the grandmother and step-grandmother (Grandma Pasch --> Grandma Ramsey) of the Ramsey children.

JR also remarried. The wedding with Jan Rousseaux was held at Castle Farms, a popular venue 3.2 mi. from 112 Belvedere Ave., the Ramseys' former summer home. Castle Farms had been the farm portion of the old Loeb estate. The Loebs' son, Richard, was the Loeb in the infamous Leopold and Loeb case in 1924, in which L&L murdered Bobby Franks in an attempt to prove that they could get away with the perfect crime due to their superior intellect. They enticed Franks into a car where he was struck on the head, then strangled to death. Each accused the other of being the killer. They disposed of the body and then began a kidnap ruse to extort a ransom from Franks' parents before they were caught. The dark history of Castle Farms would be well known to long time area residents.

The choice of Castle Farms makes sense, in a way - in JR's home state, familiar, near Charlevoix, lovely. But it's just weird that it should be so closely associated with a murder with clear parallels to JonBenet's. I'm not suggesting the choice holds clues about it. What's bizarre to me is that JR chose Castle Farms despite its connection to the Leopold & Loeb case when many other options were available. Maybe he unconsciously associated JBR's murder-followed- by-fake-kidnap with the L&L case - but maybe not.
 
I really think Occam's Razor is right on this one.

JBR's parents doted on their children, and if BR smacked JBR hard enough to crack her skull (highly unlikely), the parents would have immediately called 911 and passed it off as an accident.

The wild idea that they didn't want BR to be in trouble so they strangled their injured daughter with a garrote is beyond the pale.

The intruder theory is the only one that makes any sense, but LE fudged up the scene to such a degree (plus the house was a mess) that any slamdunk evidence was missed.
It's going to be a little hard to pass it off as an accident if BR took a golf club and split her skull in two. If you yourself are convinced BR couldn't have hit her, can you imagine explaining away the force required if he did. It wasn't a thunk. It was a fit of rage or an impulsive act to shut her up. I'm not sure why you are so convinced a 9 year 11 month old child who was big for his age could not inflict an injury as severe as the one JB recieved. I have come in contact with children younger than that whose parents are afraid of them and are fearful for their siblings. I know a child half BR age that is obsessed with driving the car and stole keys twice. Just because you think something is true/ untrue doesn't make it fact.
You are either attached to the Ramseys emotionally or have a very insulated view of what goes on in the world. Children are committed to inpatient care frequently for mental issues. Do some research with child psychiatry or a behavioral pediatrician a d you will find this to be true
 
Just some additional odd facts about JR --

His father was widowed and later remarried. Ramsey, Sr.'s second wife was the mother of JR's first wife, Lucinda Pasch. Thus, his ex-mother-in-law became his step-mother and both the grandmother and step-grandmother (Grandma Pasch --> Grandma Ramsey) of the Ramsey children.

JR also remarried. The wedding with Jan Rousseaux was held at Castle Farms, a popular venue 3.2 mi. from 112 Belvedere Ave., the Ramseys' former summer home. Castle Farms had been the farm portion of the old Loeb estate. The Loebs' son, Richard, was the Loeb in the infamous Leopold and Loeb case in 1924, in which L&L murdered Bobby Franks in an attempt to prove that they could get away with the perfect crime due to their superior intellect. They enticed Franks into a car where he was struck on the head, then strangled to death. Each accused the other of being the killer. They disposed of the body and then began a kidnap ruse to extort a ransom from Franks' parents before they were caught. The dark history of Castle Farms would be well known to long time area residents.

The choice of Castle Farms makes sense, in a way - in JR's home state, familiar, near Charlevoix, lovely. But it's just weird that it should be so closely associated with a murder with clear parallels to JonBenet's. I'm not suggesting the choice holds clues about it. What's bizarre to me is that JR chose Castle Farms despite its connection to the Leopold & Loeb case when many other options were available. Maybe he unconsciously associated JBR's murder-followed- by-fake-kidnap with the L&L case - but maybe not.
Very interesting
 
Just some additional odd facts about JR --

His father was widowed and later remarried. Ramsey, Sr.'s second wife was the mother of JR's first wife, Lucinda Pasch. Thus, his ex-mother-in-law became his step-mother and both the grandmother and step-grandmother (Grandma Pasch --> Grandma Ramsey) of the Ramsey children.

JR also remarried. The wedding with Jan Rousseaux was held at Castle Farms, a popular venue 3.2 mi. from 112 Belvedere Ave., the Ramseys' former summer home. Castle Farms had been the farm portion of the old Loeb estate. The Loebs' son, Richard, was the Loeb in the infamous Leopold and Loeb case in 1924, in which L&L murdered Bobby Franks in an attempt to prove that they could get away with the perfect crime due to their superior intellect. They enticed Franks into a car where he was struck on the head, then strangled to death. Each accused the other of being the killer. They disposed of the body and then began a kidnap ruse to extort a ransom from Franks' parents before they were caught. The dark history of Castle Farms would be well known to long time area residents.

The choice of Castle Farms makes sense, in a way - in JR's home state, familiar, near Charlevoix, lovely. But it's just weird that it should be so closely associated with a murder with clear parallels to JonBenet's. I'm not suggesting the choice holds clues about it. What's bizarre to me is that JR chose Castle Farms despite its connection to the Leopold & Loeb case when many other options were available. Maybe he unconsciously associated JBR's murder-followed- by-fake-kidnap with the L&L case - but maybe not.
Fascinating. Isn't it interesting just how many odd coincidences there are with the R family?
 
It's going to be a little hard to pass it off as an accident if BR took a golf club and split her skull in two. If you yourself are convinced BR couldn't have hit her, can you imagine explaining away the force required if he did. It wasn't a thunk. It was a fit of rage or an impulsive act to shut her up. I'm not sure why you are so convinced a 9 year 11 month old child who was big for his age could not inflict an injury as severe as the one JB recieved. I have come in contact with children younger than that whose parents are afraid of them and are fearful for their siblings. I know a child half BR age that is obsessed with driving the car and stole keys twice. Just because you think something is true/ untrue doesn't make it fact.
You are either attached to the Ramseys emotionally or have a very insulated view of what goes on in the world. Children are committed to inpatient care frequently for mental issues. Do some research with child psychiatry or a behavioral pediatrician a d you will find this to be true
It's also an interesting fact that in his interview with Dr. Bernhard on January 8, BR tells her he knows what happened to JBR, and proceeds to describe her being taken downstairs, and then either stabbed or hit in the head with a hammer. And he replicated the hitting movement of an over-the-arm blow. By this time, it had been published in the papers on December 28th that she had been strangled, but no mention of a head wound. There was a quote from Detective Larry Mason that the child "had not been shot or stabbed". There was only a passing comment on January 6th in the Daily Mail (local Boulder paper) about a head injury, details of the depressed skull fracture were not revealed to the public until July of 1997. We know from the R's own comments that they were shielding BR from newspapers and tabloids about the crime. So how did he know she was hit in the head? And why the misleading statement about being stabbed with a knife when we know that he knew she was strangled, as Susan Stine had overheard he and Doug discussing only two days after the murder?

And why were BR's medical records withheld from the investigation by the R attorneys? The earlier incident with BR hitting JBR with the golf club was downplayed by PR as an accident. But at first she admitted to Judith Phillips that BR and JBR were having a disagreement and that resulted in him hitting her. Judith, who was the photographer who took many pictures of PR and both kids, recalled that she often saw flashes of anger and outbursts from BR. She was a close friend for 10 years before PR cut her off and out. She knew things that PR did not want to be known. It's also interesting that the golf club incident took place within a couple of days of JBR's birthday. Despite what he has said, there are signs that BR was jealous of his little sister and the attention she received.
 

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