PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[wawashortie]

Today 10/15/21 is the first day of oral arguments in the lawsuit filed by Ellen’s parents in Philadelphia.

They are fighting to have the cause & manner of death changed to homicide.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg's death remains controversial as case heads to court

 

[ilovewings]

Today 10/15/21 is the first day of oral arguments in the lawsuit filed by Ellen’s parents in Philadelphia.

They are fighting to have the cause & manner of death changed to homicide.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg's death remains controversial as case heads to court

I hope the parents prevail

 

[realanastasia]

Philadelphia Judge Hears Arguments In Mysterious Fatal Stabbing Case of Ellen Greenberg

 

[JerseyGirl]

Ellen Greenberg Case: Judge To Allow Case To Non-Jury Trial With New Evidence As Family Fights To Prove Death Was Homicide

 

[Periwinkl3]

This is hard to accept as a suicide because of the multiple shallow stab wounds on the front and back of her body. Still, it is would be an equally unusual murder and it makes no sense a a staged suicide. If you are going to murder someone and make it look like a suicide, you make it look like a suicide.

The locked door latch is a significant clue. Is it even possible to do it from the outside? If it is, it must have required a lot of planning and practice. If the husband worked hard to develop a system for locking the the latch, it would strongly suggest that the staged suicide was planned. If it was, why wasn’t the murder staged more convincingly like a suicide?

I am inclined to believe it was suicide as long as it was physically possible for her to have inflicted those injuries on herself.

.

If a person googled search terms like "painless suicide" and "quick suicide" as reported, why would she then stab herself 20 times? That process would be neither painless nor quick.

Well, whaddya know:New information suggests young fiancée found stabbed 20 times did NOT search online for suicide [EXCLUSIVE]

 

[ilovewings]

I do not believe Ms. Greenberg committed suicide any more than Rebecca Zahu committed suicide.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Washington Post today:

A woman with 20 stab wounds died of suicide, an autopsy found. Her parents are unconvinced: ‘It makes no sense.’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/27/ellen-greenberg-suicide-stabbing/

I just learned of this case today. Know nothing but what I read in the article, and in my opinion, it just seems the boyfriend did it. The bolted door from inside and his establishment of alibi so clearly with the series of texts and building person accompanying him to get inside. It just screams Agatha Christie whodunnit setup.

 

[ilovewings]

Washington Post today:

A woman with 20 stab wounds died of suicide, an autopsy found. Her parents are unconvinced: ‘It makes no sense.’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/27/ellen-greenberg-suicide-stabbing/

I just learned of this case today. Know nothing but what I read in the article, and in my opinion, it just seems the boyfriend did it. The bolted door from inside and his establishment of alibi so clearly with the series of texts and building person accompanying him to get inside. It just screams Agatha Christie whodunnit setup.

Another case like this comes to mind; Jonathan Luna, a prosecutor was found dead, I think in a creek with lots of those kinds of stab wounds--- they have called his case a possible suicide. I will never believe it.

 

[Gardenista]

Parents sue medical examiner over suicide ruling for woman who died of 20 stab wounds

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Parents of schoolteacher sue medical examiner after it ruled she killed herself, stabbed 20 times | Daily Mail Online

 

[ilovewings]

I have come to believe that sometimes, (not always), suicide is the conclusion for lazy coroners/medical examiners, and detectives. It is so much less time consuming to call a dead body a suicide. So much less work!!!!! they just close the case. that's it.

 

[KidonGadol]

This is hard to accept as a suicide because of the multiple shallow stab wounds on the front and back of her body. Still, it is would be an equally unusual murder and it makes no sense a a staged suicide. If you are going to murder someone and make it look like a suicide, you make it look like a suicide.

The locked door latch is a significant clue. Is it even possible to do it from the outside? If it is, it must have required a lot of planning and practice. If the husband worked hard to develop a system for locking the the latch, it would strongly suggest that the staged suicide was planned. If it was, why wasn’t the murder staged more convincingly like a suicide?

I am inclined to believe it was suicide as long as it was physically possible for her to have inflicted those injuries on herself.

1. It was not possible physically to stab herself in the back - you try it (with a stick say) . And if you are going to commit suicide.. why the hell are you going to slash yourself in the crow on the head. Two knives appear to have been used, one with a standard edge and one serrated... why change suicide weapons part way through ?

2. In fact young Schmuly looked at the OJ Simpson case and made very few mistakes c/w OJ. No bloody footprints anywhere . No gloves left behind. No loss of blood of the assailant and look at Ron Goldman's hands - all chopped up in the webs - none of that. For a starter knife murderer , he did pretty well. How did he avoid any blood on his clothes that we know about ? Tyvek suit , I'd say. It's Long gone now.

I'm betting it was hidden in the apartment or folded flat under a jacket and he disposed of it in a dumpster at the first opportunity.

 

[KidonGadol]

wow I just read this story this morning and it is very sad. I believe that LE really dropped the ball on this one. Take a look and see what you think!
Suicide or homicide? Parents’ anguished search for answers lasts years after daughter dies of 20 stab wounds

<modsnip> If you are going to suicide with a knife , you don't end up with a big gash on the top of your head. BTW the Juliette balcony outside the apt was covered with snow and checked for foot prints so it is next to impossible that someone dropped down on a rope from the roof and came in that way. KG

 

[KidonGadol]

there was blood on the bottom of one of her boots... and the horizontal blood stream from her nose isn't really explained.

If there was blood on the bottom of a boot and no corresponding print then it is clear that there has been a clean up. Suicides don't clean as they go.

<modsnip>

KG

 

[Shamrock1]

“Among the potential new evidence includes an expert’s deposition that shows at least one of Greenberg’s 20 stab wounds had no hemorrhaging or bleeding, meaning it happened after she was dead.”
Pennsylvania AG's Office Receives Potential New Evidence In Mysterious Death Of Ellen Greenberg

 

[ilovewings]

“Among the potential new evidence includes an expert’s deposition that shows at least one of Greenberg’s 20 stab wounds had no hemorrhaging or bleeding, meaning it happened after she was dead.”
Pennsylvania AG's Office Receives Potential New Evidence In Mysterious Death Of Ellen Greenberg

A lazy cop's best friend---"it must be suicide"
I cannot tell you how many true crime shows I watch where that
is the first thought of cops arriving on the scene--
One recent show feaured a deceased female found in the water--
first words from the cop-- looks like it could be suicide--
Yeah right- I am sure she threw herself in the river!!!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

A lazy cop's best friend---"it must be suicide"
I cannot tell you how many true crime shows I watch where that
is the first thought of cops arriving on the scene--
One recent show feaured a deceased female found in the water--
first words from the cop-- looks like it could be suicide--
Yeah right- I am sure she threw herself in the river!!!

I'd love to know statistics of suicide verdicts/findings/theories in men vs women murders. Wondering if women are more likely called suicides.

 

[KidonGadol]

Here's a door frame photo from the UK's Daily Mail article on the case. It is better quality than most other images of the latch bar in the apartment.

BTW - rotate it 90 deg CCW to see it as it appeared in real life. There's a very important detail - the RH or top lug of the door frame part has a tool mark on it- a dimple. I'd guess there will be a similar confirming mark under the cast tongue. I am guessing it was done with a heavy shank screwdriver that was inserted and pushed TOWARD the door frame, hence there are no marks on the fascia of the door.

This is supposedly a police photo from the scene and the details of the break out of the wood of the door look exactly like other photos of this detail.

So what has happened is someone has used a tool , inside the apartment to force the door bar door fitting so it was starting to pull out of the wood ahead of the crime so he could be sure it was possible to break into the apartment when the time came.

I don't think the police ever realised this - there was such a sloppy job done. A survey of the same fitting (they were universal fit out in the Loft apt complex) will surely show an absence of this tool mark.

The original brass-chrome fitting may have been refitted to a new door. If so, the tongue could be examined for a tool mark in the plating underneath and photographed with a date imposed on the digital image.

The Greenberg's Mr Brennan almost got it right - he said that the door had been slammed open from Inside the apartment to get this effect of screw pull out , but I think that the tool mark shows a different form of preparation.

KG

<modsnip: Image removed due to no link / copyright violation>

 

[dotr]

Just found this thread, it caught my attention because of the supposed suicide/murder deaths of billionaires, Honey and Barry Sherman- which ultimately proved to be murder after the family insisted on a second autopsy, although for some, that conclusion is still controversial. fwiw.rbbm.

Parents of Ellen Greenberg believe new evidence submitted to the Philadelphia Attorney General’s Office will prove their daughter’s 2011 death was murder, not s
Dec 26 2021

Dec. 26, 2021 By Andrea Cavallier
''According to the investigation report, Ellen’s fiancé, Sam Goldberg, came home from the gym on the evening of January 26, 2011, to discover he was locked out of the apartment, unable to use his keys because the apartment’s swing bar lock was engaged from the inside. He told police he banged on the door and tried to reach Ellen by phone, but got no response.

Goldberg was eventually able to force open the door, according to the ME’s investigation report, and found Ellen just inside the front door in the kitchen with her upper body propped against the cabinets and her legs splayed out in front of her. When he called 911, according to the report, Goldberg was “instructed to start CPR until he noticed a knife in her chest, then was instructed to stop.”

Ellen had 20 stab wounds — including 10 to her neck and head, along with bruises in “various stages of resolution” on Ellen’s arm, abdomen and right leg,” according to the autopsy report.

When police arrived at the scene that night and observed no forced entry into the apartment, no defense wounds and no evidence of a struggle, they stated that it appeared Ellen died by suicide.''
But when the autopsy was conducted, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office initially ruled Ellen’s death a homicide. Ellen’s father, Josh Greenberg, told Dateline he believes the medical examiner decided to reclassify her death as a suicide to align with police investigators. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the medical examiner was told that authorities were “leaning” toward suicide and looking “mental issues” she might have had.''

''The Greenbergs enlisted their own teams of experts, including famed forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht and forensic scientist Henry Lee. After investigations of their own, they disputed the medical examiner’s ruling of suicide.''

Ws thread.
CANADA - Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

 

[ilovewings]

Just found this thread, it caught my attention because of the supposed suicide/murder deaths of billionaires, Honey and Barry Sherman- which ultimately proved to be murder after the family insisted on a second autopsy, although for some, that conclusion is still controversial. fwiw.rbbm.

Parents of Ellen Greenberg believe new evidence submitted to the Philadelphia Attorney General’s Office will prove their daughter’s 2011 death was murder, not s
Dec 26 2021

Dec. 26, 2021 By Andrea Cavallier
''According to the investigation report, Ellen’s fiancé, Sam Goldberg, came home from the gym on the evening of January 26, 2011, to discover he was locked out of the apartment, unable to use his keys because the apartment’s swing bar lock was engaged from the inside. He told police he banged on the door and tried to reach Ellen by phone, but got no response.

Goldberg was eventually able to force open the door, according to the ME’s investigation report, and found Ellen just inside the front door in the kitchen with her upper body propped against the cabinets and her legs splayed out in front of her. When he called 911, according to the report, Goldberg was “instructed to start CPR until he noticed a knife in her chest, then was instructed to stop.”

Ellen had 20 stab wounds — including 10 to her neck and head, along with bruises in “various stages of resolution” on Ellen’s arm, abdomen and right leg,” according to the autopsy report.

When police arrived at the scene that night and observed no forced entry into the apartment, no defense wounds and no evidence of a struggle, they stated that it appeared Ellen died by suicide.''
But when the autopsy was conducted, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office initially ruled Ellen’s death a homicide. Ellen’s father, Josh Greenberg, told Dateline he believes the medical examiner decided to reclassify her death as a suicide to align with police investigators. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the medical examiner was told that authorities were “leaning” toward suicide and looking “mental issues” she might have had.''

''The Greenbergs enlisted their own teams of experts, including famed forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht and forensic scientist Henry Lee. After investigations of their own, they disputed the medical examiner’s ruling of suicide.''

Ws thread.
CANADA - Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

I hate to think of how many cases are designated as suicide when in fact they are homicides. I believe that is the result of sometimes lazy detectives and lazy coroners/medical examiners or coroners/medical examiners who are not trained properly. It is real shame that cases like Ms. Greenberg or Rebecca Zahu were improperly concluded to be suicide IMO