PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

JMO, as a victim of a near drowning I can say I was terrified and am to this day of being in deep water. Water in lungs and all that.....I have nightmares. It wouldn't be my method of suicide. But with no body I doubt suicide anyway. Something was on his mind though in the days before he vanished. What could it have been?

By jumping in the river, yes.

While I would rate suicide as the least likely of the three, there is some circumstantial evidence, how he was acting. The evidence that we have points to RFG's disappearance not being homicide.

Just for the record, I am hugely hydrophobic. I went to the ocean three times in one year, but never set foot on a beach.

 

[Galbin]

The evidence that we have points to RFG's disappearance not being homicide.

Why do you think this?

Only new to this thread BTW...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why do you think this?

Only new to this thread BTW...

Okay, keep in mind that suicide is not homicide.

1. RFG was acting very unusually for 4-5 weeks prior to his disappearance. His travels on 4/14 and 4/15 were into areas either without cell coverage or without regular police patrols or both. That is not consistent with a guy being worried about his personal security.

2. The distances, traffic and number of turns make it next to impossible for him to have been followed and not notice it. The car had not been washed on the outside since he was in it; his prints were on the outside. It wasn't forced off the road into a dusty or muddy area, and then driven to the lot.

3. Some evidence that he was planning to go to Lewisburg, he Googled a map, from what I've heard within a week prior to the Mini Cooper being in Lewisburg. If this was some type clandestine meeting, why no reference and why claim that he was taking a day off?

4. He had asked people about how to get rid of the data on his laptop a year before. He did Google searches on his home computer about water damage to a hard drive. A witness saw him in Lewisburg doing something with the laptop in the Mini. Several witnesses saw him him within about 100 yards of where the drive was tossed.

5. Numerous witnesses (8 minimum) saw him in Lewisburg on 4/15, and not in any danger. His scent was detected in the parking lot where the Mini was found, but not beyond it. Because of the way the houses are in the area, and the traffic on Water Street, it is likely that if someone would have forced him into a car, he would have been easily seen.

6. No crime scene; no evidence anyone else drove the Mini. Evidence of someone smoking in or near it, but not driving it.

7. Assets very low for his salary. Estate worth less than $25 K. Could indicate not saving for retirement, either because assets had been moved or because he was doing estate planning (or, technically, both). Mini was in S.O. name though RFG drove it almost exclusively; joint accounts with daughter.

8. Three witnesses (minimum) put him alive on 4/16 in Lewisburg.

9. One fairly good (50%) witness sighting puts him Southfield, MI in 5/27/05, the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend, about 15 miles from the Canadian border and 4 miles from the Macedonia Consulate. RFG's ancestry was from the region (Slovenia) and he had visited cousins there over the years.

10. History of bipolar disorder and suicide in the family (his bother). Both can be genetic.

11. Cell call to girlfriend seems to have been made close to Centre Hall. The call was telling her that he wouldn't be home to let the dog out. It looks like if he delayed his departure for 20-40 minutes, he could have. Why, if this was just a pleasure trip, on his day off?


That is the thumbnail.

 

[BigCat]

We see or are told about the flailing and panic which happens when a person can't get out of a riptide or is otherwise in initial trouble in the water. This usually only lasts a few minutes, although it seems to go on forever. If help cannot reach the person in trouble, or if suicide is the objective, then the person begins the process of drowning, whereby the blood and brain are deprived of O2 and CO2 and then H2O fills the lungs and tissue spaces.

In all cases of drowning except the rare " dry drownings" of children, there is a type of CO2 narcosis which begins as drowning begins which makes drowning a very slowed down process from the vantage point of the person who is drowning.
The drowning individual does so with complete calm and peace in mind and body during the phase of drowning/ dying.
There might have been an initial struggle while they were conscious but actual drowning is not a conscious function.

If there is ANY comfort to be had, it is that those who drown do not suffer in their last moments on earth. Rather, they are in a state of calmness and a type of brain sleep. Drowning is one of the most peaceful deaths there is.

I learned about the cycle of O2 to CO2 displacement in brain tissue in nursing school, and about the narcosis which precedes a loss of consciousness. Many times, I have been able to give some measure of comfort to a family about what their loved one felt and thought as they were drowning. The death is peaceful. It is not a struggle at all once drowning begins.

I know this most likely does not apply to Ray but there may be someone here who has had a friend or family member drown. I think it's important to separate what we think we know about drowning from watching a conscious person trying to get out of the water vs. what actually happens during the drowning itself. I wish no one drowned at all, of course, but it is NOT a violent struggle for life. It is quiet and calm and extremely peaceful. We believe there are pleasant hallucinations for up to 5 minutes during the actual process of drowning.

The human mind has many self- protective measures... this one is started by a physiologic process of CO2 buioldup, or CO2 narcosis, however one wants to state it.

Thanks for that interesting info. I wonder if RFG knew (knows?) this. After all, his brother did drown. He may have researched the topic.

 

[Jmoose]

That could be useful. The area I'd be looking at is about 1.5 miles east of the bridgehead. A lot of that area is not a location to hide a body. It is people front yards (and homes) and active farming fields. Those can be eliminated. Likewise, I think the quarry is active and if remains would be there, they would have been discovered years ago.

Some "paths" would include the old canal trail and the railroad right of ways.



We don't have any indication of anyone else driving the Mini. A second person, one that drove his/her own car to Lewisburg, could have dropped him some where.

If would raise the question of if someone dropped RFG off, unwittingly, why didn't that person come forward?

I might have this wrong, but wasn't there a cigarette or cigarette ashes found inside the car (and he doesn't smoke)? If this is true, couldn't that indicate that someone else drove the car?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I might have this wrong, but wasn't there a cigarette or cigarette ashes found inside the car (and he doesn't smoke)? If this is true, couldn't that indicate that someone else drove the car?

A trace, on the floor of the passenger side.

That could indicate someone was leaning in to the window, with a cigarette. Because it is on the passenger side floor, it would not indicate that the person was driving.

 

[MissJ]

FWIW I do think he was meeting someone there that day.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

FWIW I do think he was meeting someone there that day.

Quite possible, but why the secrecy?

He didn't tell his girlfriend he wasn't going to be at the office until the morning of 4/15. There were not any notes regarding an official-type meeting, and he wouldn't need to take the day off for that.

There wasn't any e-mail that said "Meet me in Lewisburg on Friday," and nothing in his calendar.

Why was he hiding it?

Why was he acting so unusually in the 5 weeks prior to his disappearance.

None of that points to homicide.

 

[SeekingJana]

Thanks for that interesting info. I wonder if RFG knew (knows?) this. After all, his brother did drown. He may have researched the topic.

Just my opinion, but he probably would have had to ask a nurse or doctor who had studied the phenomenon of actual drowning and the body and brain's response.
I don't think the process is actually documented very well in most lay persons' literature.

I found out because one of my fellow nursing students had a child who drowned. She asked 3 different professors: Anat. and Phis., Psych., and a Nursing professor what happens when a human drowns.. All 3 confirmed that after our innate initial human response to save ourselves and try to get out of the water, once lung tissues are under-perfused due to displacement of 02 by H20 and CO2, the body relaxes, the brain enters a peaceful dream-like state, and there is no more struggle, even if the person still retains awareness of being in water. Usually hearing is the last known sensation to leave.

I have a book written by a lady a couple of years ago or so who was a neurosurgeon who had a near death experience by near- drowning on a white rapids kayaking trip, and what she describes as meeting a spiritual being and being peaceful and happy matches what I was taught happens exactly. She believes she went to Heaven. I hope she did, but think it's likely that part of what she experienced is common to many, if not most, near- drowning and drowning victims. She was in full cardiac and pulmonary arrest when finally freed from her overturned kayak, so she may have been clinically dead. I know that CPR was performed by fellow physicians for quite some time, and she was hospitalized with skeletal injuries as well as traumatic head injuries for a long time. Her narrative of what happened in the water backs up what I know about drowning very well, is the point.
I've looked for my book to use as a reference source but cannot find it at the moment. There are books everywhere here.

 

[MissJ]

JMO, if RFG was meeting someone he may have had multiple reasons for keeping it a secret.

He may have been secretly working on something he didn't want to share. (I have done that). He may have been meeting a woman who had an angry jealous husband. JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JMO, if RFG was meeting someone he may have had multiple reasons for keeping it a secret.

He may have been secretly working on something he didn't want to share. (I have done that). He may have been meeting a woman who had an angry jealous husband. JMO.

There were no notes and no evidence of contact with another person.

 

[PPKik]

Just my opinion, but he probably would have had to ask a nurse or doctor who had studied the phenomenon of actual drowning and the body and brain's response.
I don't think the process is actually documented very well in most lay persons' literature.

I found out because one of my fellow nursing students had a child who drowned. She asked 3 different professors: Anat. and Phis., Psych., and a Nursing professor what happens when a human drowns.. All 3 confirmed that after our innate initial human response to save ourselves and try to get out of the water, once lung tissues are under-perfused due to displacement of 02 by H20 and CO2, the body relaxes, the brain enters a peaceful dream-like state, and there is no more struggle, even if the person still retains awareness of being in water. Usually hearing is the last known sensation to leave.

I have a book written by a lady a couple of years ago or so who was a neurosurgeon who had a near death experience by near- drowning on a white rapids kayaking trip, and what she describes as meeting a spiritual being and being peaceful and happy matches what I was taught happens exactly. She believes she went to Heaven. I hope she did, but think it's likely that part of what she experienced is common to many, if not most, near- drowning and drowning victims. She was in full cardiac and pulmonary arrest when finally freed from her overturned kayak, so she may have been clinically dead. I know that CPR was performed by fellow physicians for quite some time, and she was hospitalized with skeletal injuries as well as traumatic head injuries for a long time. Her narrative of what happened in the water backs up what I know about drowning very well, is the point.
I've looked for my book to use as a reference source but cannot find it at the moment. There are books everywhere here.

Near death experiences are always interesting and this sounds like a worthwhile read.

The difference here is that this woman did not try to drown herself, she was in an accident and trapped.

If RFG did drown himself, that is not easy.

I have spoken to two doctors and an ME's investigator about drowning, in a suspicious death case that was personal to me.

I was told, in all instances, that drowning is a rare and difficult way to kill yourself, unless you tie yourself and/or weigh yourself down. The body's natural response kicks in a makes you expel water and breathe, so without some other aide, like weights and ropes, or a fall from a high bridge, it is very difficult to go out and just drown yourself, and most suicidal people don't chose that method.

It's a bad way to go.

I know RFG's brother was parked next to a river and found dead downstream. I have never known how he actually died, only that his death was ruled a suicide.

 

[PPKik]

<very respectfully snipped for space>

BBM

The drowning individual does so with complete calm and peace in mind and body during the phase of drowning/ dying.
There might have been an initial struggle while they were conscious but actual drowning is not a conscious function.

If there is ANY comfort to be had, it is that those who drown do not suffer in their last moments on earth. Rather, they are in a state of calmness and a type of brain sleep. Drowning is one of the most peaceful deaths there is.

I learned about the cycle of O2 to CO2 displacement in brain tissue in nursing school, and about the narcosis which precedes a loss of consciousness. Many times, I have been able to give some measure of comfort to a family about what their loved one felt and thought as they were drowning. The death is peaceful. It is not a struggle at all once drowning begins.

I know this most likely does not apply to Ray but there may be someone here who has had a friend or family member drown. I think it's important to separate what we think we know about drowning from watching a conscious person trying to get out of the water vs. what actually happens during the drowning itself. I wish no one drowned at all, of course, but it is NOT a violent struggle for life. It is quiet and calm and extremely peaceful. We believe there are pleasant hallucinations for up to 5 minutes during the actual process of drowning.

I don't doubt what you are saying is true, after a certain point, in the process of drowning, but the initial struggle to breathe and to live, to get to that point, is horrific.

To breathe in enough water on purpose to get to that peaceful state is what is almost impossible without some other means to get past the point where you are automatically fighting to live... before the narcosis and hallucinations set in.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Two points on drowning in RFG's case.

1. If RFG jumped/fell/was pushed from the bridge, there would be some fall damage. If may not be fatal, but it could make drowning much easier and painless.

2. The water was could, hypothermia would be a factor and could have the same effect.

 

[charminglane]

He's agitated for a few weeks prior to "poof."

Drives in to an area with poor cell coverage and high crime. For what reason?

To buy a gun on the sly?

Sure, he can get one legally. But this way no one would have any idea and no paper trail.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He's agitated for a few weeks prior to "poof."

Drives in to an area with poor cell coverage and high crime. For what reason?

To buy a gun on the sly?

Sure, he can get one legally. But this way no one would have any idea and no paper trail.

Those areas don't have high crime rates, just very few police and sparse population. If someone would be targeting him, it would be easier to target him in these areas and not have to worry about LE showing up.

The problem is, we know that he was acting unusually in the weeks before his disappearance, the first reports about 5 weeks before. If the reason was that, he was worried about his physical safety, why take action that would make him less safe?

It would be less likely that he could buy a gun secretly in these areas, due to a low population, that it would be in area with a higher population (e.g. State College, Altoona, or Williamsport).

According to Tony, he didn't like guns. Even if he was to suddenly decide he needed one, why do it secretly, and break the law doing it. Gun permits and gun sales are not published in PA.

I was frankly surprised he did not have a gun.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was just thinking.

In PA, you need a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but not to own, a handgun. They do have a three day waiting period to purchase, I think, but after that, it would be unknown. There are no safety/shooting classes required. They take your prints and to see if you committed a crime anyplace; I think they run you through an FBI database.

There might be a background check on a rifle or shotgun, but you can carry so long as it is not concealed (in general, a rifle could be carried in a car without a loaded magazine).

Some of those sparely populated areas were in Centre County, so I'm not too sure if someone would be willing to sell a gun illegally to the DA.

Of all the people in Centre County, however, I could not imagine anyone, except a sitting judge, maybe, RFG would be the one who would have no problem getting a permit to carry.

 

[Trackergd]

I was just thinking.

In PA, you need a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but not to own, a handgun. They do have a three day waiting period to purchase, I think, but after that, it would be unknown. There are no safety/shooting classes required. They take your prints and to see if you committed a crime anyplace; I think they run you through an FBI database.

There might be a background check on a rifle or shotgun, but you can carry so long as it is not concealed (in general, a rifle could be carried in a car without a loaded magazine).

Some of those sparely populated areas were in Centre County, so I'm not too sure if someone would be willing to sell a gun illegally to the DA.

Of all the people in Centre County, however, I could not imagine anyone, except a sitting judge, maybe, RFG would be the one who would have no problem getting a permit to carry.

I am of the opinion that RFG would have had no problem getting a concealed weapon permit. The Sheriff would have rushed that application given it would have been for the DA.

I am also of the opinion that if RFG was concerned about his safety, he would have at the very least, left information on his desk should he not return. At best, he would have given LE a heads up.

Something dire was eating at RFG.

 

[MissJ]

There were no notes and no evidence of contact with another person.

I get that but does a business person always make notes on every contact? I ask this because when I worked for a state government agency I assisted in a secret investigation involving a murder and was asked specifically to talk to no one and leave no trail. Once the investigation was complete I was permitted to discuss with one superior. Unfortunately, while we were convinced a murder had taken place we did not have enough evidence. I met with fellow investigators under the guise of a lunch break. Not saying this happened in RFG's case but it is a possibility in MO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I get that but does a business person always make notes on every contact? I ask this because when I worked for a state government agency I assisted in a secret investigation involving a murder and was asked specifically to talk to no one and leave no trail. Once the investigation was complete I was permitted to discuss with one superior. Unfortunately, while we were convinced a murder had taken place we did not have enough evidence. I met with fellow investigators under the guise of a lunch break. Not saying this happened in RFG's case but it is a possibility in MO.

Well, even something like a meeting, there may have something like a notation on his calendar, and e-mail scheduling a meeting time, or a cell phone record.

In your case, the entry could have been, hypothetically, "Having lunch with Sam, at 11:30 AM." We don't have that in the Gricar case.

There is almost always some sort of contact before the meeting arranging the meeting, even if it is cover meeting.

This would have had to have been something where RFG did not want a record of the meeting to exist that could be discovered by the police after the fact.