PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

One theory is that it is at night, when it would be difficult to see a passenger.

Further on 4/15/05, RFG was not recognizable in Lewisburg. He would be recognizable in Centre County, where his photo was in the newspaper for 20+ years and where he had been on television. They won't be seeing either in Lewisburg.

JJ you would be wromg about this post someone knew him to know who he was but not knowing he had a mini some day i do hope it comes out and the person who was with him and I dont think that person is MISSING

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ you would be wromg about this post someone knew him to know who he was but not knowing he had a mini some day i do hope it comes out and the person who was with him and I dont think that person is MISSING

There is no evidence that anyone else was in the Mini. The ash shows someone smoked, but not that someone was riding in the Mini. RFG would certainly not be well known in Lewisburg.

 

[MissJ]

Personally, I would not use the word "incriminating." It implies something criminal, and it might not have been.

Perhaps that is the wrong word but I didn't mean criminal. Evidence of another woman or affairs.....messages or Emails regarding his plans to leave.

 

[MissJ]

Its not unusual to be threatened when your work involves criminals. I was threatened more times than I can count. I have been attacked multiple times. Once by a man still in chains and cuffed. But I do not hide or run. Probably I am too casual about it. I too think walkaway is likely but there had to be reason or reasons to leave your child behind. Money doesn't make up for that. He could have gone somewhere and suicided. He could have left because of a woman and money or he wanted adventure. Still there are other possibilities. The McStay case is a perfect example of LE having blinders on. One thing I'm sure about is someone helped him (if he walked)and they (the helper)don't have to be missing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Perhaps that is the wrong word but I didn't mean criminal. Evidence of another woman or affairs.....messages or Emails regarding his plans to leave.

I didn't think you were.

I am a bit concerned at least with the implication, which is why I said it.

And, I agree, if there is a Helper, he/she is still around.

 

[MissJ]

I didn't think you were.

I am a bit concerned at least with the implication, which is why I said it.

No problem. I never thought he was/is into anything illegal. An affair and evidence of where he might be going. Maybe he though his pension would make up for his leaving Laura behind. Maybe he thought the mini would make it up to PEF. People get nostalgic when they get to retirement age. Maybe he ran off with his high school GF who knows?

 

[shadow of my mind]

Just had the chance to get caught up (about 12 pages behind) and a several things come to mind out of the very lively discussion over the last couple of weeks.

First one .......Since it appears, based on what was stated in the article sourced below, and what shows in the documents from the FBI investigation of RFG in the 80’s (attached to that same article) the fact that RFG may have been looked at for a position as a Special Assistant United States Attorney opens up some avenues that have not been discussed. It also brings into question if there may be circumstances that have the potential to bring into play a definite connection to something at the federal level (and possibly the Federal Prisons in and around Lewisburg) if RFG ever actually served in that capacity. Source: http://deadspin.com/5890077/what-is-...obably-nothing

It could also open up an entire new reason for someone harming him or for that matter for him making a decision to walk away. It could also possibly explain the desire to remove all data from his laptop and result in the fact that it was most likely he himself who tossed the drive in the river, because ultimately he didn’t trust the wiping software and felt that the water would do the job.

I am still not sold on the idea it was RFG who tossed the actual computer itself in the river, since it, in my opinion, seems to have been two separate acts based on the location of where both were found. The main question being why would he not toss them together as one unit, or at least in the same place, even if separated? I could better see someone else tossing the laptop, not realizing that the drive had already been removed.

The second thing is .....Regarding the information ..... that because RFG had a pension anyone would have been able to find out his home address does not appear to be correct. Since he was a DA he would have been considered LE.
Found under FAQ in Open Records of State of PA website
Q. What are some types of information that will NOT be available?
A. Home addresses of law enforcement and judges
Source: http://openrecords.state.pa.us/port...s=L2&mode=2&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true#ques17
and
Directly from the Centre County DA website “The District Attorney is the chief law enforcement officer in the County”
Source: http://centrecountypa.gov/index.aspx?NID=366

Lastly ....If he did walk away, I think he did it all on his own with no helper. Think about it. Does anyone of you know someone in your life, who you could be absolutely sure, would be that totally loyal and not say anything, ever. I don’t. Especially knowing that there is a grieving daughter, nephews and a girlfriend left behind who want answers, want to know that you’re alive and all right. That would also mean that he would have had to have planned this a long time ago and that would mean that everything that he had done over the last, at the minimum, 5 years and more likely (if he was to be sure he had a chance to actually succeed and be able to live out his life without being destitute) 10 to 15 years, was to facilitate him to be able to disappear. In regards to his personal life that would mean that everything he did and said was based on falsities.

That alone brings up so many thoughts, and IMO would make him a very cold and calculating man to plan to leave those who loved him to forever wonder what happen to him.

 

[MissJ]

Just had the chance to get caught up (about 12 pages behind) and a several things come to mind out of the very lively discussion over the last couple of weeks.

First one .......Since it appears, based on what was stated in the article sourced below, and what shows in the documents from the FBI investigation of RFG in the 80’s (attached to that same article) the fact that RFG may have been looked at for a position as a Special Assistant United States Attorney opens up some avenues that have not been discussed. It also brings into question if there may be circumstances that have the potential to bring into play a definite connection to something at the federal level (and possibly the Federal Prisons in and around Lewisburg) if RFG ever actually served in that capacity. Source: http://deadspin.com/5890077/what-is-...obably-nothing

It could also open up an entire new reason for someone harming him or for that matter for him making a decision to walk away. It could also possibly explain the desire to remove all data from his laptop and result in the fact that it was most likely he himself who tossed the drive in the river, because ultimately he didn’t trust the wiping software and felt that the water would do the job.

I am still not sold on the idea it was RFG who tossed the actual computer itself in the river, since it, in my opinion, seems to have been two separate acts based on the location of where both were found. The main question being why would he not toss them together as one unit, or at least in the same place, even if separated? I could better see someone else tossing the laptop, not realizing that the drive had already been removed.

The second thing is .....Regarding the information ..... that because RFG had a pension anyone would have been able to find out his home address does not appear to be correct. Since he was a DA he would have been considered LE.
Found under FAQ in Open Records of State of PA website
Q. What are some types of information that will NOT be available?
A. Home addresses of law enforcement and judges
Source: http://openrecords.state.pa.us/port...s=L2&mode=2&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true#ques17
and
Directly from the Centre County DA website “The District Attorney is the chief law enforcement officer in the County”
Source: http://centrecountypa.gov/index.aspx?NID=366

Lastly ....If he did walk away, I think he did it all on his own with no helper. Think about it. Does anyone of you know someone in your life, who you could be absolutely sure, would be that totally loyal and not say anything, ever. I don’t. Especially knowing that there is a grieving daughter, nephews and a girlfriend left behind who want answers, want to know that you’re alive and all right. That would also mean that he would have had to have planned this a long time ago and that would mean that everything that he had done over the last, at the minimum, 5 years and more likely (if he was to be sure he had a chance to actually succeed and be able to live out his life without being destitute) 10 to 15 years, was to facilitate him to be able to disappear. In regards to his personal life that would mean that everything he did and said was based on falsities.

That alone brings up so many thoughts, and IMO would make him a very cold and calculating man to plan to leave those who loved him to forever wonder what happen to him.

Your last sentence is something I said many times and been criticized for......You have some good ideas BTW.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, it is apparently common to swear a DA in as a Special AUSA. It is so there would not be jurisdictional problems and possibly so that the DA would have access. It looks like it is reasonably common: http://www.franklincountypa.gov/da/Pages/DistrictAttorneyBios.aspx Currently, most positions are unpaid.

Second, there is a difference between releasing or posting an address and having it in publicly available pension records. For example, RFG's home address was listed on his Financial Interest forms, which are public. They are posted, though I redacted the address. Things like that, and voter registration records, are publicly available. (When doing a background check on me, even a reporter could, and did, check this.)

The current forms are here: http://www.sers.state.pa.us/pdf/Form_RTK-Home-Addresses.pdf

As to the third point, it would depend on the situation. Not wanting his ex-wife to receive money may be one reason. Wishing his heirs to receive more may be another reason. Not wanting to be "the ex-DA" is another. Worried that someone that prosecuted might come back for him may be another reason. Some or all may be reasons.

Getting out of Lewisburg, without help, is possible, but there are limited means. Mass transit is difficult, looking at bus scheduled. Renting a car, without a credit card, is impossible. Purchasing a car, either with false ID or under his own name are possible, but there would be a record.

 

[BigCat]

Lastly ....If he did walk away, I think he did it all on his own with no helper. Think about it. Does anyone of you know someone in your life, who you could be absolutely sure, would be that totally loyal and not say anything, ever. I don’t. Especially knowing that there is a grieving daughter, nephews and a girlfriend left behind who want answers, want to know that you’re alive and all right. That would also mean that he would have had to have planned this a long time ago and that would mean that everything that he had done over the last, at the minimum, 5 years and more likely (if he was to be sure he had a chance to actually succeed and be able to live out his life without being destitute) 10 to 15 years, was to facilitate him to be able to disappear. In regards to his personal life that would mean that everything he did and said was based on falsities.

That alone brings up so many thoughts, and IMO would make him a very cold and calculating man to plan to leave those who loved him to forever wonder what happen to him.

Respectfully snipped

The Helper may not have any idea whether RFG is a live and well or not. Perhaps all the Helper could do is let the family know RFG walked away from them; he may even be able to provide them with the motive, a motive which would surely be insufficient to the family. So I don't see the incentive for the Helper to come forward.

I do wonder, however, if the Helper is willing to lie to the police or not. It's no crime to help someone disappear, but it is a crime to lie to the police.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

The Helper may not have any idea whether RFG is a live and well or not. Perhaps all the Helper could do is let the family know RFG walked away from them; he may even be able to provide them with the motive, a motive which would surely be insufficient to the family. So I don't see the incentive for the Helper to come forward.

I do wonder, however, if the Helper is willing to lie to the police or not. It's no crime to help someone disappear, but it is a crime to lie to the police.

And, by telling the family, the Helper could open up the family to civil liability.

Two other possibilities:

1. It depends what questions are asked. Suppose LE ask, "Do you know were Ray Gricar is?" Helper gave RFG the car, but doesn't know where RFG is exactly. Helper can truthfully answer, "No, I don't." Only if asked, "When was the last time you saw Ray Gricar," would Helper be lying to the police.

2. A lot of RFG's friends are lawyers and if Helper is one, that could complicate matters. RFG could give Helper a dollar and establish an attorney-client relationship, which is privileged. If Helper is not helping RFG commit a crime, it would not necessarily be required to be disclosed.

 

[MissJ]

And, by telling the family, the Helper could open up the family to civil liability.

Two other possibilities:

1. It depends what questions are asked. Suppose LE ask, "Do you know were Ray Gricar is?" Helper gave RFG the car, but doesn't know where RFG is exactly. Helper can truthfully answer, "No, I don't." Only if asked, "When was the last time you saw Ray Gricar," would Helper be lying to the police.

2. A lot of RFG's friends are lawyers and if Helper is one, that could complicate matters. RFG could give Helper a dollar and establish an attorney-client relationship, which is privileged. If Helper is not helping RFG commit a crime, it would not necessarily be required to be disclosed.

yes those are valid points. A helper who was also an attorney makes sense. Also what kind of person helps and then tells on RFG? It would cause trouble for PEF and RFG's daughter.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

yes those are valid points. A helper who was also an attorney makes sense. Also what kind of person helps and then tells on RFG? It would cause trouble for PEF and RFG's daughter.

There was and is a $10 K reward, so it would be someone:

A. who was personally loyal to him, and/or;

B. who was bound by professional ethics, and/or;

C. who was paid a great deal more than $10 K.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A while back I wrote about the characteristics of a Helper (H):

A. Loyal to RFG (which could include a professional relationship).

B. Trustworthy, i.e. if he gave H money to buy a car or rent one, RFG would have to be sure H didn't steel it.

C. Proximate to Lewisburg.

 

[BigCat]

There was and is a $10 K reward, so it would be someone:

A. who was personally loyal to him, and/or;

B. who was bound by professional ethics, and/or;

C. who was paid a great deal more than $10 K.

I remember once you wrote that you checked to see if Graham Spanier, a licensed pilot, had flown any flights during the days surrounding RFG's disappearance. It was a shot in the dark; nevertheless, it does point to additional scenario: someone who may have had a mutual interest in RFG disappearing. The Helper may not have been been, necessarily, a loyal friend, but RFG could still count on him to remain silent. It's not my most likely scenario; however, I can't rule it out.

 

[BigCat]

yes those are valid points. A helper who was also an attorney makes sense. Also what kind of person helps and then tells on RFG? It would cause trouble for PEF and RFG's daughter.

I tend to believe the Helper was, most likely, an attorney, which leads me to believe RFG did not commit a crime. I have a feeling the Helper was aware of RFG's motive for walking way and was sympathetic. I can't see an attorney putting his career in jeopardy by aiding a potential fugitive. Of course, I realize that attorneys are far from perfect. After all, Steve Sloane is on probation for selling dope. So who knows?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I remember once you wrote that you checked to see if Graham Spanier, a licensed pilot, had flown any flights during the days surrounding RFG's disappearance. It was a shot in the dark; nevertheless, it does point to additional scenario: someone who may have had a mutual interest in RFG disappearing. The Helper may not have been been, necessarily, a loyal friend, but RFG could still count on him to remain silent. It's not my most likely scenario; however, I can't rule it out.

That would fall under "personally loyal," broadly. Except for the trustworthy part, someone RFG had something on, but didn't prosecute, could be a helper. The problem is, the next DA could.

Spanier, for example, could not guarantee that with RFG, he would not be prosecuted by whomever won in 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We have seen similar things, but here is another example of someone missing that was alive: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...med-dead-in-177-fire-found-alive-in-oklahoma/

I do want to note one point. There are no charges being filed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Can anyone come up with things that RFG could have done to keep money out of his estate.

So far, I have:

1. Insurance.

2. Irrevocable trusts.

3. Payable upon death accounts.

It is for a blog.

Legitimate things, not hiding money in the Cayman Islands or anything.

 

[SeekingJana]

Wasn't it legal to have Swiss and other non- USA bank accounts until the 21st century?

He could have bought rarities that would sell at a profit or at least not at a loss upon his death. Rare coins, rare stamps, maybe gold bullion under the amount of purchase that has to be reported... People buy and sell privately. I know because I have a very wealthy ( multi-millionaire) friend who buys gold coins from S. Africa and gold bullion and hides it in a safe. ( He's extremely conservative and also extremely private- sound familiar?)