PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[Trackergd]

Respectfully snipped.


"J. J. is really Ray Gricar."

Damn it, I knew there was something fishy about you!!

 

[BigCat]

New blog up looking at RFG's finances from 1979-96: http://www.centredaily.com/2014/09/...money-part-2-1979-96.html?sp=/99/236/704/694/

Some of the things BigCat raised are mentioned.

Good info. Thanks.

btw, I saw on PennLive where you were attempting to have a civil discussion about incivility. It was an entertaining read.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Good info. Thanks.

btw, I saw on PennLive where you were attempting to have a civil discussion about incivility. It was an entertaining read.

Just trying to umpire.

Just to be clear, I had written the blog before you asked some of your questions.

RFG really never wanted to go into private practice. It stuck me as unusual that he wasn't when he retired, but after looking it his career, it was something he didn't want to do.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It might be totally unrelated to RFG's disappearance, but you might want to read posts from #109 on this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...t-s-Own-Report-critical-of-Freeh-Report/page5

The time frame for which the federal grand jury is requesting information does include the 1998 Sandusky investigation.

 

[shadow of my mind]

It might be totally unrelated to RFG's disappearance, but you might want to read posts from #109 on this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...t-s-Own-Report-critical-of-Freeh-Report/page5

The time frame for which the federal grand jury is requesting information does include the 1998 Sandusky investigation.

J.J Don't you mean post #113. That is the one with the attachment to the subpoena on it.

Here is the subpoena: http://www.psu.edu/ur/2012/openness/DOJ_subpoena.pdf

(This takes a bit to download, even though it is only a 3 page pdf it is sized at over 7 meg.) Look for the attachment that show what they requested and the start date.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J Don't you mean post #113. That is the one with the attachment to the subpoena on it.

Here is the subpoena: http://www.psu.edu/ur/2012/openness/DOJ_subpoena.pdf

(This takes a bit to download, even though it is only a 3 page pdf it is sized at over 7 meg.) Look for the attachment that show what they requested and the start date.

The request starts a #109 and there is a description of some of the terms in it above that.

 

[missgulfsouth]

The computer and hard drive in the river, and the internet search on his home computer about water damage to a laptop makes me think double life scenario.

Question - Could offshore banking information have been on that computer?

I think had it been a suicide, it was within walking distance so he would have been found.

Perhaps he met up with someone he knew in the parking lot, and they killed him. Maybe case related?
Makes me think of Jimmy Hoffa.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped at bit.

Question - Could offshore banking information have been on that computer?

Yes. There would be other ways like wire transfers. There were no large cash withdrawals. It was about $16 K over the prior 2 1/2 years, which works out to $125/week.

In terms of suicide, there is a wetland/wooded immediately across the bridge, so I would not entirely rule that out.

 

[SeekingJana]

The thing I keep going back to is something I learned as a teen on shows like " Unsolved Mysteries", then on " America's Most Wanted".
LE on those shows emphasized over and over to people- "Never get into a compromised situation with a potential attacker". IOW- don't get into someone's car if they have a gun on you, don't go with someone if you feel uncomfortable or coerced in any way, don't get outside YOUR personal safety zone in your mind or physically. This helped me survive when I was stalked by a state official with a badge, gun, and fast car. I might not be able to hide from him due to his resources, but I did outsmart him and outmaneuver him time after time. I stayed alive long enough for anti- stalking laws to help me see him punished.

I truly believe and have always believed that if Ray had encountered a dangerous person or people, he would have gotten out of it by attracting others to his side, by not being isolated, by using his own skills. I have believed this for 9 years. If I could do it, he could do it.
I am 99.9% sure he is alive, or was alive after the 16th and possibly has died of natural causes in the years since he left PA.

In the absence of evidence pointing to death by any method, one must consider the most likely possibility, that he is alive. Occam's Razor, and common sense, IMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

LE on those shows emphasized over and over to people- "Never get into a compromised situation with a potential attacker". IOW- don't get into someone's car if they have a gun on you, don't go with someone if you feel uncomfortable or coerced in any way, don't get outside YOUR personal safety zone in your mind or physically. This helped me survive when I was stalked by a state official with a badge, gun, and fast car. I might not be able to hide from him due to his resources, but I did outsmart him and outmaneuver him time after time. I stayed alive long enough for anti- stalking laws to help me see him punished.

The only thing I could see was getting into a car voluntarily. Water Street, which runs between parking lot and the SoS, is a shortcut. If has more traffic than the average suburban street At least two houses have unobstructed views of the parking lot. There is also some foot traffic.

Now, I wouldn't rule a clandestine meeting with a woman, where he left in her car.

I truly believe and have always believed that if Ray had encountered a dangerous person or people, he would have gotten out of it by attracting others to his side, by not being isolated, by using his own skills. I have believed this for 9 years. If I could do it, he could do it.

On 3/11/05, Brian Nichols shot four people, including a judge, in the Fulton County Courthouse in Atlanta, and then escaped. At one point during his escape, he tried to force a male hostage into the trunk of his own car. He bolted, but got away. So did another hostage being held at gunpoint, when she unlocked the passenger door and jumped out. http://murderpedia.org/male.N/n/nichols-brian-gene.htm

The story was front page news across the US. It was even bigger in PA, because Nichols had attended Kutztown University in PA. Because of the notoriety of the case, the connection to both PA and a courthouse, and it being just over 4 weeks prior to disappearance, RFG had to have known about it.

With that fresh in his mind, and knowing the location was very public, and that he was fairly good shape for his age, I think it is impossible that RFG would not have resisted.

 

[missgulfsouth]

The thing I keep going back to is something I learned as a teen on shows like " Unsolved Mysteries", then on " America's Most Wanted".
LE on those shows emphasized over and over to people- "Never get into a compromised situation with a potential attacker". IOW- don't get into someone's car if they have a gun on you, don't go with someone if you feel uncomfortable or coerced in any way, don't get outside YOUR personal safety zone in your mind or physically. This helped me survive when I was stalked by a state official with a badge, gun, and fast car. I might not be able to hide from him due to his resources, but I did outsmart him and outmaneuver him time after time. I stayed alive long enough for anti- stalking laws to help me see him punished.

I truly believe and have always believed that if Ray had encountered a dangerous person or people, he would have gotten out of it by attracting others to his side, by not being isolated, by using his own skills. I have believed this for 9 years. If I could do it, he could do it.
I am 99.9% sure he is alive, or was alive after the 16th and possibly has died of natural causes in the years since he left PA.

In the absence of evidence pointing to death by any method, one must consider the most likely possibility, that he is alive. Occam's Razor, and common sense, IMO.

Occam's Razor always. I wasn't thinking of him getting into a situation with a potential attacker, but a friend who turned out not to be a friend. The world of politics - and law is political - has a dark underbelly. We don't always know who we can trust. Again, going back to Jimmy Hoffa, I believe he was killed by a "friend(s)".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One of the speculations with Hoffa had a heart attack while with organized crime friends, and they hid the body.

Occam's Razor always. I wasn't thinking of him getting into a situation with a potential attacker, but a friend who turned out not to be a friend. The world of politics - and law is political - has a dark underbelly. We don't always know who we can trust. Again, going back to Jimmy Hoffa, I believe he was killed by a "friend(s)".

It is possible, but why the clandestine trip?

 

[BigCat]

Occam's Razor always. I wasn't thinking of him getting into a situation with a potential attacker, but a friend who turned out not to be a friend. The world of politics - and law is political - has a dark underbelly. We don't always know who we can trust. Again, going back to Jimmy Hoffa, I believe he was killed by a "friend(s)".

There was no sign of trouble at the restaurant where Hoffa's car was discovered. Pretty good chance he willingly left with the people who killed him. Hoffa was a man who was comfortable meeting men of a questionable nature in convert locations.

RFG's "friend" could have been a co-conspirator in either illegal or unethical behavior. It would explain the clandestine meeting. It also might explain RFG's trip to Lewisberg the previous day. He was scoping out a place to meet someone he wasn't entirely sure he could trust.

I don't believe foul play is likely, but if foul play is involved in his disappearance, such a scenario is most likely, IMO. It's very difficult to make someone disappear. RFG would have had to put himself in a vulnerable position.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There was no sign of trouble at the restaurant where Hoffa's car was discovered. Pretty good chance he willingly left with the people who killed him. Hoffa was a man who was comfortable meeting men of a questionable nature in convert locations.

RFG's "friend" could have been a co-conspirator in either illegal or unethical behavior. It would explain the clandestine meeting. It also might explain RFG's trip to Lewisberg the previous day. He was scoping out a place to meet someone he wasn't entirely sure he could trust.

I don't believe foul play is likely, but if foul play is involved in his disappearance, such a scenario is most likely, IMO. It's very difficult to make someone disappear. RFG would have had to put himself in a vulnerable position.

Just a note. It was to Lake Raystown on 4/14, near the boat landing.

It is possible it was something illegal or unethical, but I hope not. A woman would usually be neither.

 

[MissJ]

There was no sign of trouble at the restaurant where Hoffa's car was discovered. Pretty good chance he willingly left with the people who killed him. Hoffa was a man who was comfortable meeting men of a questionable nature in convert locations.

RFG's "friend" could have been a co-conspirator in either illegal or unethical behavior. It would explain the clandestine meeting. It also might explain RFG's trip to Lewisberg the previous day. He was scoping out a place to meet someone he wasn't entirely sure he could trust.

I don't believe foul play is likely, but if foul play is involved in his disappearance, such a scenario is most likely, IMO. It's very difficult to make someone disappear. RFG would have had to put himself in a vulnerable position.

Yes that is plausible and possible if it was foul play. What odds do you give foul play?

 

[BigCat]

Yes that is plausible and possible if it was foul play. What odds do you give foul play?

20%. Maybe. As soon as I'm ready to say there is almost no chance of foul play, I learn the FBI is seeking information about the 98 investigation. That information raises the chances of foul play, in my mind.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

20%. Maybe. As soon as I'm ready to say there is almost no chance of foul play, I learn the FBI is seeking information about the 98 investigation. That information raises the chances of foul play, in my mind.

They may be. The information they seek cover that period.

I'm at 29-30% foul play.

 

[missgulfsouth]

They may be. The information they seek cover that period.

I'm at 29-30% foul play.

What percentage suicide? And why would he take his life, in your opinion?

And what percentage new life and identity? And why the need to do so, in your opinion?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What percentage suicide? And why would he take his life, in your opinion?

And what percentage new life and identity? And why the need to do so, in your opinion?

With what is public:

Suicide: 10% Depression, possibly due to financial reversals and/or genetic.

Walkaway: 60% A desire to go off on his own, show how much brighter he was, not wanting to be the ex-DA, specific embarrassment over Sandusky case, retrieving funds he could not access without sending up red flags, seeing that his heirs would receive his pension, and/or a fresh start.

 

[SeekingJana]

Occam's Razor always. I wasn't thinking of him getting into a situation with a potential attacker, but a friend who turned out not to be a friend. The world of politics - and law is political - has a dark underbelly. We don't always know who we can trust. Again, going back to Jimmy Hoffa, I believe he was killed by a "friend(s)".

Hoffa was a himself. It would be expected that his " friends" would be mafia thugs as well.

Ray Gricar was a man of principle and the law. He had to decide whether or not to try case after case in Centre County, which meant he had danmed well better be a very good judge of character and the truth ( some cases are circumstantial whether we want to admit it or not- " He sad, she said" type of witnesses or perps to a crime.)

I see NO correlation between what Jimmy Hoffa would have done and his known associates and Ray Gricar's known behavior and who he was known to associate with outside the courtroom. He was, by all accounts, a very private and reticent man. I do not think he would strike up a friendship with a fly by night type of squirrel who would them kill him.

AND- going back to Occam's Razor- if the motive was murder, why would a " friend" as you describe have to lure him out of town? Just kill him in his home or in a dark parking lot while out socializing together somewhere. ( Patty might be collateral damage, but I don't think she was very important to most people).