PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder why Gricar would print a map of the route to Lburg. Had he not been there many times? Was that map found in his car? :thinking:

I'm just taking these point by point. RFG searched for a map, but we don't know if he printed it. He also checked the weather for both Lewisburg and Raystown Lake.

One possibility was that he was giving someone directions, but it is fairly easy to say, "Turn right at Centre Hall."

There are three reasons that I can come up with to look up a map.

1. To get directions. RFG was familiar with the route, so this is next to impossible.

2. To check the the mileage. Normally the only reason to check the that would be for reimbursement. If this a work related trip, why would RFG need to be so secretive about it? Why where no notes about it this, if it was official?

3. To check the time of the trip. Well, RFG was there and probably had an idea of time. He however, was known to have exceeded the speed limit, so his time may not have been driving time someone else would have.

#3 is the most logical that I can come up with. I'm open to others.

If I'm right, however, it would mean he was giving the drive time to someone in Centre County.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped:

Thank you for the info. It fills in some blanks for me. I'm reading in the Hell's Angel thread you pointed me to. One can get lost for days in these threads.

I had a thought that were Gricar's disappearance the result of a former prosecution-revenge scenario, I'd think that person who orchestrated his disappearance would want to send a message to that prosecutorial office in general. Like, an anonymous message sent to, say, a news station, something along the lines of "This is what you get when you put the wrong man in jail." That type of action might be more in line with a more 'disorganized' type offender, versus a clean hit at top levels. It seems to me were it an actual pedophile ring-related murder, they'd take zero chances with an action like that, & would desire zero notoriety.

Or, they would leave a body. This was does not send a clear message. Further, RFG didn't actually prosecute the case; his ADA Sloane did. Sloane is alive.

So Gricar let the laptop sit, with whatever sensitive info. he wanted to get rid of, sit unused from 12/04 until mid-April, 2005. The day he disappeared, or the day before that, he was apparently in possession of it. Maybe it did have a search history for destinations. I wonder if that history would fall under the purview of google records. Maybe he used different email addresses, or otherwise used a specific email for that particular laptop. Of course, now there exist more ways to privately find info. without being tracked online, versus 12 years back. Or he could have just been ridding the hard drive of jokes sent back & forth.

"Whether that was intentional or not is unknown." Not sure what you mean here. That he didn't want to be recognized where he went by the general public in Lewisburg? I think I read that antique shopkeepers were familiar with his face, however.

RFG had been there but as one of thousands of shopper. RFG left the A-J-SC and went to an area where few people would recognize him. We don't know what his reason for that. Did he go there because people would be less likely to recognize? Did he go there for any other reason? We don't have an answer.

I guess looking at out-of-character actions is a key to deconstructing a mystery like this, unless we go with a theory that's more random in nature, such as hitting his head by accident falling out of a tree in deep woods somewhere, not being discovered, then animals dragging him off, for instance. Either he or someone else threw that laptop in the river. Just that laptop keeps coming back to me as being the key that could unlock this.

The woods are not that deep. There are some wooded areas, but beyond that, there is farmland.

One of the locations, perhaps the major one across the river is the Montandon Wetlands and adjoining woods. In another case, the Barbara Miller case, at least some of that area was searched.

It is probably better to look at Google satellite photo to really see the wooded areas and the wetlands.

 

[feralwriter]

For some reason, I remember reading Gricar actually printed the map out.

As far as "deep" woods, this was an example of a random event he may have been subject to that proved fatal, whereby his body was never located.

"This was does not send a clear message" Sorry, what?

I find this compelling; it's an audio interview with a cop who used to be part of The Second Mile as a child (the Sandusky debacle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8hRLu7wskM Part 1 - Sandusky Sex Victim Speaks with Victor Thorn

Listening carefully to the tone and the words he uses, I believe him. He discusses how men enter pedophile rings.

J.J., can you please tell me how notifications work? Because right now I can only tell if someone posts when I refresh the page. You can see how unwieldy this would become over time, posting in a few separate forums, to keep track of. Thanks.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Re: Pensions

You get the most money if the retiree is alive. Depending on how the pension plan is set up - and this is up to the employer - a retiree can either take a monthly amount or can take a "lump sum" amount. Some plans do not allow for taking a lump sum and will pay a monthly amount only.

Many retirees feel it is best to take a lump sum if possible because they gain control of the money and can invest it as they wish.

If a retiree dies before taking his pension, his designated beneficiary (who was named by the retiree) does not get the full amount of the pension. Usually they get half. And which again can be either in monthly payments or a lump sum.

In a case like Gricar's no payout would be made until after he was declared to be legally dead.


Re: Daughter not attending declaration of death hearing in person

There are no direct flights from Seattle to Pittsburgh. So she would have to take two planes to get to Pittsburgh, then a smaller plane to get from Pittsburgh to say, Johnstown, then a vehicle from there to whichever courthouse. That's a lot of hassle (plus a waste of time, energy and money) vs. testimony via telephone or Skype in a situation like this. Which is why courts allow it.

 

[feralwriter]

" Did he go there because people would be less likely to recognize? Did he go there for any other reason? We don't have an answer." Right, that's what we're trying to decipher. The one answer we do have is that he had been there before, and knew he would be seen there by people he knew. Therefore, Gricar's picking LBurg was not random. His scent was in the immediate vicinity of his car. That, too, is an answer. The idea is to try to tie the strings together into a larger ball of yard that won't unravel. There's facts- such as he knew ppl would recognize him in the town, versus suppositions- why he went to the town. I have read shopkeepers knew his face, were familiar with him, had previously spoken to him on a number of occasions. Were Gricar wishing to remain absolutely certain he'd be unseen by anyone who had seen him or his car on previous occasions, I believe he would not have gone to LBurg. You say "few people would recognize him" which isn't the same as no people would recognize him. I think that's worth keeping in mind.

"#3 is the most logical that I can come up with. I'm open to others." Your take is he needed to check the time for his trip. But if he had driven there many times before, why would he need to re-time himself? I would think he would know the route, & general distance and time driving by heart. Perhaps he took a detour, and came into LBurg from an alternate route, a road that fed into another road to LBurg. Then mapquesting the route would make sense. It could be a 2nd party needed that info., & if he did print it out, which I read he did, he may have faxed it to another party. Maybe he didn't print it. The only fact we have is he, for an unknown reason, needed a map to LBurg.

Going back to out-of-character moves he made in the days or weeks preceding his disappearance is key. The tiredness is one. I wonder if anyone's interested in compiling a list?

 

[feralwriter]

Thank you, this is really good info.

Potentially, Gricar- if he did walk away- knew his daughter would get far less. I think we can count that as a fact. I'm counting it as a fact, though maybe shouldn't. I can't get inside Gricar's head. I am assuming he knew because he was smart, & seemed financially savvy. Why he would walk away knowing this (if he did) would be guesswork.
And that makes sense re Lara not being present in person. The family waited 11 years to declare him dead.

 

[cutter99]

Ray was declared dead in July 2011. That was only a little over 6 years after his disappearance.

 

[deoneta]

I am pretty techno challenged so please excuse the dumb questions. How is it known that the laptop was unused for months? His ISP records? If he used the wifi of a cafe or hotel, how would that be known?

I am assuming his home and work phone records and his home desk top have been scrutinized. Given that his laptop went unused, how would he set up any possible rendezvous with the mystery woman or another?

Was the mapquest search immediately prior to his disappearance or earlier? All MOO.

Edited to add. What I was getting at is that maybe he set up a meeting with someone local, in person, someone who might have need the mapquest directions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you, this is really good info.

Potentially, Gricar- if he did walk away- knew his daughter would get far less. I think we can count that as a fact. I'm counting it as a fact, though maybe shouldn't. I can't get inside Gricar's head. I am assuming he knew because he was smart, & seemed financially savvy. Why he would walk away knowing this (if he did) would be guesswork.
And that makes sense re Lara not being present in person. The family waited 11 years to declare him dead.

In straight money terms, I think that she inherited a lump sum from his pension.

IF RFG walked away, or killed himself, he would realize that his heirs could get more than if he retired.

The declaration of death was filed after the first Sandusky story came out, but well before the grand jury presentment. It is possible that the family, or their legal counsel, knew that RFG was involved in the 1998 incident. Sloane knew about it and TG did talk to Sloane. Goodall is a well connected attorney. Further, one person "at counsel" at his firm was the district judge, Dutchcot, who initially presided over Sandusky's arraignment.

If that was the reason, I really can't blame the family. The 7 year mark was April 15, 2012. That would have it pending while Sandusky was pending. It would have been a bigger circus than it was.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am pretty techno challenged so please excuse the dumb questions. How is it known that the laptop was unused for months? His ISP records? If he used the wifi of a cafe or hotel, how would that be known?

I am assuming his home and work phone records and his home desk top have been scrutinized. Given that his laptop went unused, how would he set up any possible rendezvous with the mystery woman or another?

Was the mapquest search immediately prior to his disappearance or earlier? All MOO.

We don't know about the laptop, except that it was used as the home computer until roughly 12/04.

There is a history record on the ISP. It keeps track of what sites you go to and it does in chronological order.

Since the map was found on 4/16, and the police had access to office computer that afternoon, it is hugely likely to have been on his office computer. To discover it, it would have to have been toward the newer part of the list. It would have been hugely unlikely for the BPD to have gone back months on the first full day (4/16/05). At the time, they were thinking about the possibility that RFG was in a traffic accident.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For some reason, I remember reading Gricar actually printed the map out.

As far as "deep" woods, this was an example of a random event he may have been subject to that proved fatal, whereby his body was never located.

"This was does not send a clear message" Sorry, what?

I find this compelling; it's an audio interview with a cop who used to be part of The Second Mile as a child (the Sandusky debacle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8hRLu7wskM Part 1 - Sandusky Sex Victim Speaks with Victor Thorn

Listening carefully to the tone and the words he uses, I believe him. He discusses how men enter pedophile rings.

J.J., can you please tell me how notifications work? Because right now I can only tell if someone posts when I refresh the page. You can see how unwieldy this would become over time, posting in a few separate forums, to keep track of. Thanks.

I have the same problem with the new posts.

I would not rule a pedophile ring being in existence in Centre County. You might look at the Chris Lee case, from Boelsburg.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Re: Pensions

You get the most money if the retiree is alive. Depending on how the pension plan is set up - and this is up to the employer - a retiree can either take a monthly amount or can take a "lump sum" amount. Some plans do not allow for taking a lump sum and will pay a monthly amount only.

Many retirees feel it is best to take a lump sum if possible because they gain control of the money and can invest it as they wish.

I actually ask someone in the pension system; the heirs would have gotten less if RFG had retired and then was hit by a bus six months later.

It also would have given Lara an opportunity to appeal to the public for any information; that was missed. Her mother lives in Centre County, so the hardship would be the same as visiting her mother. I would add that it would have been a legitimate expense as the administrator of RFG.

 

[feralwriter]

According to OP, he was leave behind as much as 1/2 if he walked away before retiring.

<modsnip> this site doesn't notify when new posts come, <modsnip>

Good luck, people, & Gricar, wherever you are, hope you're living it up.

 

[Quiet Time]

According to OP, he was leave behind as much as 1/2 if he walked away before retiring.

<modsnip> this site doesn't notify when new posts come, <modsnip>

Good luck, people, & Gricar, wherever you are, hope you're living it up.

feralwriter, maybe I can help.
A while back when I had inquired as to how to see my last posts and possible replies, I was told to go to the top of the page where it say 'Welcome.....(your name) and click that.

It will take you to your last post, and a few of your previous posts...so you can follow up.

I hope that helps you!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

feralwriter, maybe I can help.
A while back when I had inquired as to how to see my last posts and possible replies, I was told to go to the top of the page where it say 'Welcome.....(your name) and click that.

It will take you to your last post, and a few of your previous posts...so you can follow up.

I hope that helps you!!

I tried it, and it work with you name, thank you.

The site does not show updates, but you can e-mailed digests.

 

[SeekingJana]

I have the same problem with the new posts.

I would not rule a pedophile ring being in existence in Centre County. You might look at the Chris Lee case, from Boelsburg.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth or anything, but I don't think we are implying that Mr. Gricar was involved in a pedophile ring.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't want this man's good name associated with just the quote that there may have been and may be a pedophile ring in the area.

From what I read in impartial international news sources daily, there are child *advertiser censored* rings ( which I think is what we are referring to as it applies to the laptop) everywhere there's a deep web or "Dark Net" Internet source.
In other words, except for countries like maybe China, there are people who find what they want, all ages, including children, which of course, is illegal. ( A recent well known example would be Jared Fogle, the former face and body of Subway, who's now in prison and will be for many years for possession and possible distribution of child *advertiser censored*)

There has been talk ever since there have been true crime forums about the wide and cheap distribution of child *advertiser censored* via the Internet. The original WS started up around 1999 I think, as I remember that there was discussion of possible child *advertiser censored* angle to JonBenet Ramsey's murder. After around 2001, I'd imagine that most people have the ability to get these horrible criminal photos of children regardless of their geographic location in the USA.
Because of humanitarian aid, we've also become much more aware that there are some countries, sadly, in this world which don't value children and have a lot of trafficking in child slavery/ child *advertiser censored*.. I have never dealt with any of it, and don't even know what the " Deep Internet' is. Don't want to know the specifics, either.

 

[SeekingJana]

Slightly O/T but related to some prior posts regarding a large metal drum found in a pond close to the marsh/ wetlands/ wooded area near the Leesburg bridge. The search was related to the disappearance of Barbara Miller, suspected homicide at the former residence of a male she was involved with.
There were no human remains inside the drum and apparently, forensic experts think her remains are in the concrete which was hand- poured in the basement of her former boyfriend.

Latest info:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ete-slab-hold-remains-long-missing-woman.html

I'll say this- IF any LE group has investigated the Gricar disappearance with the vigor in which they are currently re-investigating Bargara Miller's disappearance, then I do believe we would have some indication that they believed he was a victim of homicide, even if remains have not been found. I think Ms. Miller's case was not handled well for many years, but has been reopened and is now getting top- notch expert investigation. I am sad that the cadaver dog searches for her have alerted on human remains in the basement area, as I know her family probably held some hope that she was alive.

This is a great example of what cadaver dogs can do. She has been missing and likely dead since 1989. They alerted on scent in the basement, in a particular area, in 2017.
I believe her body was in the basement, as luminol testing was also positive.

 

[SeekingJana]

Lewisburg- too late to edit and heaven knows, I do know the name of the burg he was reportedly last seen in or was said to be traveling to- Lewisburg, not Leesburg.
( Leesburg has a personal connection to my life, so I guess that's why I made the mistake.)
So very sorry.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped, as always.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth or anything, but I don't think we are implying that Mr. Gricar was involved in a pedophile ring.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't want this man's good name associated with just the quote that there may have been and may be a pedophile ring in the area.

No, but I do know that some people that are not conspiracy theorists think it is possible. That vfalls under the heading of Central Pennsylvania Gothic.

Also the Sunbury police chief, Miller, has been fantastic in going after a case more than 25 years old. And, yes, I wish there was someone like him in Bellefonte.

I would also note that one of the places where the Miller investigation took place was in one of the areas we talked about for potentially finding RFG's remains. So it isn't that off topic.

 

[Heisenberg's Hat]

There is NOTHING that links DA Gricar with being involved in a pedophile ring, period. Investigating one....maybe, but not being involved in one. People who advance this theory are doing nothing but repeating unsubstantiated internet rumors and hearsay from acquaintances who evidently claim to have inside knowledge of the investigation.