Identified! PA - White Haven, 'Beth Doe' & Unborn Baby 169UFPA, 16-22, Dec'76 - #1 - Evelyn Colon
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apearn
Paratrooper John Doe, May 1984, Florida #UP1254
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Your welcome. I thought maybe in this case (as with others) perhaps the victim in not missing, but rather a known murder victim where the body wasn't recovered.
FYI - Some of those PDFs are pictures of text though so they can't be searched like text can. You have to look through them.
Okay, so I did some research on the other girls besides Della Penna mentioned in the Northeast Times articles:
-Candace Clothier's murder was just closed. She was taken and drugged by two men, one whom she knew, and then killed
Murder of Candace Clothier, 16, April 13, 1968, Philadelphia - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
-Debra Delozier and Denise Seaman were both thought to be murdered by the Warlocks (is this the K & A gang mentioned in the article?)
-Layne Dorothy Spicer and Mary Ann Lee were both shot and thrown into the Schykill River, both murders remain unsolved but rumored to be shot because they knew to much about meth trade in the area
-I've been unable to dig up much on Bonny or Carol David... does anyone from the PA area know anything about these two?
So there still remains a question of how much any of these cases are related to each other and whether or not there's any possibility they could be related to Beth's. I'm sure this angle was investigated in Beth's case due to the time frame. The brutality of Beth's murder seems much worse than the other cases aside from Della Penna though.
Also, Della Penna's wikipedia page has changed so much in the past few weeks, I don't know how accurate it is anymore.
-Candace Clothier's murder was just closed. She was taken and drugged by two men, one whom she knew, and then killed
Murder of Candace Clothier, 16, April 13, 1968, Philadelphia - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
-Debra Delozier and Denise Seaman were both thought to be murdered by the Warlocks (is this the K & A gang mentioned in the article?)
-Layne Dorothy Spicer and Mary Ann Lee were both shot and thrown into the Schykill River, both murders remain unsolved but rumored to be shot because they knew to much about meth trade in the area
-I've been unable to dig up much on Bonny or Carol David... does anyone from the PA area know anything about these two?
So there still remains a question of how much any of these cases are related to each other and whether or not there's any possibility they could be related to Beth's. I'm sure this angle was investigated in Beth's case due to the time frame. The brutality of Beth's murder seems much worse than the other cases aside from Della Penna though.
Also, Della Penna's wikipedia page has changed so much in the past few weeks, I don't know how accurate it is anymore.
Looking at the map, I think there may be some calculation errror. I've driven from the south west corner of Virginia to DC - it's about 6 hours, so about 8-9 to the dump site. Admittedly the roads might be better now than in '76 - but then there is more traffic to bring down the average speed, although a 16-hour journey would miss a lot of that, it's true.
Running the tool at 80 km/h (i.e., 50mph) for 16 hours gives this:
Basically you're looking at anywhere along the east coast, all the way from Atlanta northward into Maine, and west as far as Chicago, if you believe the perp could have driven 16 hours in one session (and would have still been quite nearby when the body was found).
Running the tool at 80 km/h (i.e., 50mph) for 16 hours gives this:
Basically you're looking at anywhere along the east coast, all the way from Atlanta northward into Maine, and west as far as Chicago, if you believe the perp could have driven 16 hours in one session (and would have still been quite nearby when the body was found).
carbuff
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Looks like maybe checking into southeastern Canada would be a good idea. Toronto and Montreal both have very large immigrant populations.
8truthseeker8
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one of the issues that stuck out in my mind was that if the killer took the time to dismember her......... wouldn't he have noticed the ink on her hand? If it would have incriminated him or revealed any clue, why risk leaving it on her hand? JMO
Three thoughts on this...
-It could be that the killer felt that the body would skeletize before being found or that the ink would rub off by the skin being in the water.
-The killer could have known that the writing was irrelevant to his or her identity.
-He/ she was in such a rage or a rush that they didn't notice. Clearly they made other mistakes due to haste such as not making sure the suitcases landed in the water.
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I'm not so sure that the perp would want to take his chances with the border checkpoint.
The last time I travelled alone across the U.S. / Canada border (from Detroit to Windsor), I was pulled aside and they went all through my rent-a-car and opened up my luggage, looking for who knows what. On the way back into the U.S. at Niagara Falls, they put me through a pretty vigorous question and answer session, although this time they didn't search my car.
ETA, It wasn't quite as bad as trying to catch a flight out of Tel Aviv, but I digress.
Got to agree with that Carl. I have no idea what the situation was like in 1976 but as long as there was any border control, there was no reason to cross it and risk detection when you could go a similar distance inland and find somewhere just as unconnected to the victim.
Personally I would guess that 400 miles or maybe a little less, keeping to the speed limit of course, is as far as anyone would want to drive to dispose a body. Any further than that and my feeling is that you risk being identified at a motel, pulled by the cops or missed from home more than you stand to gain by obscuring the victim's identity by putting him or her in a place with which he or she has no connection.
Personally I would guess that 400 miles or maybe a little less, keeping to the speed limit of course, is as far as anyone would want to drive to dispose a body. Any further than that and my feeling is that you risk being identified at a motel, pulled by the cops or missed from home more than you stand to gain by obscuring the victim's identity by putting him or her in a place with which he or she has no connection.
carbuff
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I don't know whether the border crossing would be an issue in 1976. The major crossings at places like Windsor and Niagra Falls were certainly managed, but the border was open with no passport required. Often they just waved you through. If they were being conscientious, they asked, "Are you a citizen of the United States?" You said yes and they waved you through.
They might have glanced at the suitcases in the back seat, but it was extremely rare to get stopped for even a cursory search. I've been told, though never went through it personally, that several of the rural crossings weren't even manned overnight. You just drove through.
So probably not much higher risk than the danger of being stopped on the highway.
People who drive any distance with bodies are usually doing it because they have some connection to the place they're going to. They perceive it as somehow safer. I can't see how that would apply here.
They might have glanced at the suitcases in the back seat, but it was extremely rare to get stopped for even a cursory search. I've been told, though never went through it personally, that several of the rural crossings weren't even manned overnight. You just drove through.
So probably not much higher risk than the danger of being stopped on the highway.
People who drive any distance with bodies are usually doing it because they have some connection to the place they're going to. They perceive it as somehow safer. I can't see how that would apply here.
I wouldn't rule out Canada based on this fact but here's something to consider: What would Beth's killer's route be if he was from Canada?
See, we know that the killer was in the westbound lane on I-80. If you were coming from any point in eastern Canada you would use I-81, which is west of where Beth was found. He could have come down on 81 and then switched onto 380 but considering it was under construction in 1976 this seems unlikely.
It is of course possible that the killer turned around and headed westbound or he had a base in the area, etc.
And also there's the question: Why? Maybe crossing the border was less risky back then but I don't think too many people would chance it.
See, we know that the killer was in the westbound lane on I-80. If you were coming from any point in eastern Canada you would use I-81, which is west of where Beth was found. He could have come down on 81 and then switched onto 380 but considering it was under construction in 1976 this seems unlikely.
It is of course possible that the killer turned around and headed westbound or he had a base in the area, etc.
And also there's the question: Why? Maybe crossing the border was less risky back then but I don't think too many people would chance it.
carbuff
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You could come down I-87 (the NY Thruway) from Montreal, I-89 or I-91 from Sherbrooke, I-93 through New Hampshire, or I-95 from the Maritimes. They all come in to the east of the location where her body was found.
Okay I've spent hours looking at maps, interstate histories, and just generally spinning my wheels on this and I really think perhaps we're over complicating this. Could Beth be from anywhere within a 24 hour drive including Canada? Yes. Is it likely she was from more than a 4 hour distance? I don't think so.
We know Beth was found with the New York Daily News. This is a newspaper that is well read but very local. It's not the New York Times, it's not likely to be read by someone not from metro New York.
We also know it is very very likely Beth's killer dumped her while driving westbound on I-80. In 1976 "the Blue Route" (476) wasn't build yet so traveling from Philly or south Jersey seems less probable than it would be today. I-380 which connects I-81 and I-84 was under construction but was likely finished by December. Due to positioning it is unlikely someone on Route I-81 would switch over to I-380 without a reason. A far more likely scenario if you were taking I-380 would be to come from I-84 which connects New England with the area north of NYC. Of course, the most likely scenario is that the perp was traveling from the NJ/NYC area which we all know is straight shot. Alternatively, there is the possibility he could have come from anywhere on I-95 and then made his way onto I-80 near the GWB but the chances of that are decreased by the newspaper indicating he or Beth had been in NYC in September. Also, most people coming from the south on I-95 would choose to go on I-78 if they wanted to head into PA unless they had a reason not to, once again pointing to the perp being from northern NJ, NYC, or New England.
All roads really do lead to the fact that either the perp, Beth, or both of them were from, or at least spent time, in the NYC area. That's just my 2 cents and I could be totally wrong, but I think that's the most logical conclusion.
We know Beth was found with the New York Daily News. This is a newspaper that is well read but very local. It's not the New York Times, it's not likely to be read by someone not from metro New York.
We also know it is very very likely Beth's killer dumped her while driving westbound on I-80. In 1976 "the Blue Route" (476) wasn't build yet so traveling from Philly or south Jersey seems less probable than it would be today. I-380 which connects I-81 and I-84 was under construction but was likely finished by December. Due to positioning it is unlikely someone on Route I-81 would switch over to I-380 without a reason. A far more likely scenario if you were taking I-380 would be to come from I-84 which connects New England with the area north of NYC. Of course, the most likely scenario is that the perp was traveling from the NJ/NYC area which we all know is straight shot. Alternatively, there is the possibility he could have come from anywhere on I-95 and then made his way onto I-80 near the GWB but the chances of that are decreased by the newspaper indicating he or Beth had been in NYC in September. Also, most people coming from the south on I-95 would choose to go on I-78 if they wanted to head into PA unless they had a reason not to, once again pointing to the perp being from northern NJ, NYC, or New England.
All roads really do lead to the fact that either the perp, Beth, or both of them were from, or at least spent time, in the NYC area. That's just my 2 cents and I could be totally wrong, but I think that's the most logical conclusion.
You could, but you'd probably be going out of your way (which the perp could have a reason to do) and you have to remember how many roads exist today which were not around in 1976.
Montreal: Back in 1976, I-87 existed but many of the routes to get from I-87 to I-80 did not. Today you'd probably use I-87 to I-88 to I-81 but that wasnt possible then. I-87 to I-287 was partially completed. That leaves the recently constructed I-87 to I-84 to I-380 to I-80 route possible.
Sherbrooke: I-91 to I-84 would be the likely access route. Difficult at the time due to the two not being connected so unless the perp knew the area why would he bother? The section of I-93 you're talking about would have been differently aligned at the time, the most northern part wasn't even built until 1983.
I-95 probably represents the best possibility but out of all the places in Canada she could be from its probably the least probable considering the ride with traffic would be quite long.
I'm not meaning to be difficult, just pointing out the facts. She could be from Canada, but I think it's less likely.
Has anyone heard anything on the rule outs? I'm particularly interested in whether or not Betty Irene Redmond has been ruled out or not. (I think she looks just like the JD)
I was looking around and came across a 2001 genealogy thread where a person named Tina Bathon (Redmond) is looking for any information on Betty Irene Redmond who had a daughter in 1971 and a son in 1972. When I search Tina Bathon, it comes up Redmond and she is listed as 38/39 yoa which would be be a birth date of 1971. I'm guessing this is Betty's daughter trying to find out anything about what happened to her mother. If this is her, she would have only been 5 yoa when her mother disappeared. Wonder what Betty's husbands name was and what he did for a living. Can anyone find an old news article on her disappearance?
This case reminds me so much of the Scott/Laci Peterson case, that I just feel it was definitely someone who did not want the child to be born. So sad.
I was looking around and came across a 2001 genealogy thread where a person named Tina Bathon (Redmond) is looking for any information on Betty Irene Redmond who had a daughter in 1971 and a son in 1972. When I search Tina Bathon, it comes up Redmond and she is listed as 38/39 yoa which would be be a birth date of 1971. I'm guessing this is Betty's daughter trying to find out anything about what happened to her mother. If this is her, she would have only been 5 yoa when her mother disappeared. Wonder what Betty's husbands name was and what he did for a living. Can anyone find an old news article on her disappearance?
This case reminds me so much of the Scott/Laci Peterson case, that I just feel it was definitely someone who did not want the child to be born. So sad.
ScorpRising
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I never heard back from the State Police on rule outs. I believe (without actually going back and looking) that the date of the paper found with Beth coincided with (or was close to the date of) Betty Redmond's disappearance.
She is the one from MD that disappeared, correct?
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Here is the Charley link for Betty Irene Redmond
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/redmond_betty.html
Okay, this is out there, but a WSR57 was a National Weather Service , Weather Surveillance Radar dish, which has since been replaced with a later #. They were in service in 1976. They appear to have been located all over the place. I'm just wondering, and yes I have a heck of an imagination, if this woman was held captive somewhere where either one of these dishes were located, or if it was something she could make out from where she was? Here's the info and where they were located: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSR-57
Cupcakeslayer
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Just caught site of this thread. First thing that came to mind was how homes for unwed mothers used to be fairly abusive/steal the baby from its mother after birth( to make money off adopting it out) Wonder if they were still around in mid 70's and if something when sour there?
i think Betty Redmond looks allot like her but find it odd theres no talk of her being preg. on the poster
The newspaper on beth doe was " six sections of the New York Sunday News dated September 26, 1976. " according to the poster. Same day Betty when missing.
i think Betty Redmond looks allot like her but find it odd theres no talk of her being preg. on the poster
The newspaper on beth doe was " six sections of the New York Sunday News dated September 26, 1976. " according to the poster. Same day Betty when missing.
I agree we definitely need to get some rule out list going. I believe Betty has been ruled out but if she hasn't I think it would be very reasonable to look at her for comparison.
I don't think we ever considered the following people. Most are probably easily ruled out but I thought I'd mention them in addition to the list I complied a few pages back.
Debora Lowe- http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lowe_debora.html
Clearly she would have had to run away first and then become pregnant but it intrigued me that she had a scar on her left leg and may have run away to West Virginia.
Theresa Rhodes- http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2610dfpa.html
Freshly added to Doe, she's from PA and went missing in 1975 but seems too young.
Jan Cotta- http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cotta_jan.html
She was thought to be pregnant when she disappeared but that was in 1973. Could she have run away and got pregnant again? Who knows. She had moles and poor teeth. Also, this probably has nothing to do with anything but someone calling themselves "Beth and Baby Doe" on MySpace made threats to admins of the Jan's MySpace.
Like I said, these probably aren't as likely as any of the people I listed a few pages back but I thought I'd mention them.
I don't think we ever considered the following people. Most are probably easily ruled out but I thought I'd mention them in addition to the list I complied a few pages back.
Debora Lowe- http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lowe_debora.html
Clearly she would have had to run away first and then become pregnant but it intrigued me that she had a scar on her left leg and may have run away to West Virginia.
Theresa Rhodes- http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2610dfpa.html
Freshly added to Doe, she's from PA and went missing in 1975 but seems too young.
Jan Cotta- http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cotta_jan.html
She was thought to be pregnant when she disappeared but that was in 1973. Could she have run away and got pregnant again? Who knows. She had moles and poor teeth. Also, this probably has nothing to do with anything but someone calling themselves "Beth and Baby Doe" on MySpace made threats to admins of the Jan's MySpace.
Like I said, these probably aren't as likely as any of the people I listed a few pages back but I thought I'd mention them.
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