Pacific Northwest

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by bessie, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    But I may be wrong because according to



    http://bandittracker.com/2012/02/national-bank-of-texas-azle/

    "a white male was seen hanging around the bank before the robbery. He was in a dark colored Toyota scion or Kia soul. It is not known if this subject was related to the robbery or not." Which makes it seem like Jimmie's truck was not used in the robbery, however, since they are not sure if it is related I bet that Keyes was actually filmed scouting out the bank a day or two beforehand in his own rental vehicle. And returned in Jimmie's truck on the 16th to rob it. Maybe. Also, it is 200 miles from Jimmie's house to the bank, so if Keyes did use Jimmie's truck I think he would have had to buy gas or have stored gas somewhere along the route because I couldn't imagine a pick up truck going 200 miles each way on one tank of gas.

    Debra Feldman was 280 miles from the Tupper lake bank. FBI seems confident he took her. She disappeared 4/8/2009 and he robbed Tupper Lake on the morning of 4/9/2009. I wonder if she had a car and if it was moved.
     


  2. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    If I google map a trip from the cruise Keyes took in New Orleans to Dallas where his family lived, Google gives me three routes. One route goes right through Mt. Enterprise Tx where James Tidwell lived. That route uses US 84, just like i thought he would have taken going from Tidwell's house in Mt Enterprise to the Cleburne area, avoiding the Dallas Fort Worth metro areas.
     
  3. katydid23

    katydid23 Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading these pages. I have to say, that of all the hundreds of cases I have looked at over the years, Keyes has to be the scariest, most vile serial killer I can think of. The extent of his kills, the joy he took in pre-planning, the fact that he killed regardless of age/gender/race/anything. The satisfaction that he gleaned, the horrrors he reveled in...:no:

    He was a true monster.
     
  4. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    But something that confuses me is that the FBI said his family was in the Dallas area, but I read elsewhere his family lived in Wells Tx. Which is much closer to Jimmie Tidwell in Mt Enterprise. We'll probably never know. Sucks.

    I think of him as more of an immature emulator. More like the BTK killer than Ted Bundy. Bundy didn't plan kills all that much, more of an impulsive thing. BTK planned kills and had kill kits and such, planned long in advance. And then teased authorities with letters. Idk. Talking out of my...
     
  5. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    The meticulous way in which he planned, nah, he was a scared little *****. Going through extraordinary lengths to hide his deeds.
     
  6. katydid23

    katydid23 Well-Known Member

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    I am sure it doesn't. I was just venting. I don't have much too add to your detailed accounts of his antics because I have not kept up. He was so very busy with his evilness.
     
  7. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    No more. No less.
     
  8. katydid23

    katydid23 Well-Known Member

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    That is probably a better way to assess him. I was just thinking about the way he hid his 'kill' kits a year or so earlier, to have them on his later visits. or the way he picked out a victim to come back to on his next go round. That is really freaky and obsessive.
     
  9. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Yah, I don't think he had "kill" kits. I think he hid things based on other things. Are you about to go on a plane trip? Bury the pistol and stained money u got in your pocket before you MUST fly back.
     
  10. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Don't believe everything that gets published
     
  11. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    I could imagine Keyes making caches just before search points. He probably had many just before the Canadian border his whole life. If we map a trip from smyrna maine to montreal (he admitted to visiting hoser hookers while living in maine) sometimes the road goes thru Norton Vt, where Lorraine had a cabin. Maybe something caught his eye while caching a stache. I seem to remember during the interviews that were published that keyes admitted to checking the glove box, and seeing a photo, to see if it was the right house. AND THEN, he gave the "ranch house, no pets,...no kids...."explanation. Always had the impression from the interviews that the curriers weren't really random.
     
  12. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Quoting myself from awhile back to post this follow-up info/link:

    more at: http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20150202/NEWS/302029967
     
  13. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Yeah, seems like they rule out everyone as a possible victim. Almost like FBI made a deal with Keyes to keep his crimes secret. Sucks.
     
  14. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    ...because if they can "concretely place" him somewhere else on the day Gilman disappeared, Sat 6-24-06, then why is the FBI timeline of Keyes' whereabouts blank for that date? Where was he on 6-24-06 FBI? Why isnt there an entry? The timeline says on Thursday 6-22-06 Keyes traveled from Northern Washington to Northern Oregon to buy ATVs for work. About a 6 hour drive. So it makes sense that he probably left Neah bay Thursday morning and arrived in Oregon Thursday afternoon. He probably spent the night in Oregon and then brought the ATVs back the next day. Where else would he go with ATVs he bought for work? He was working in Neah Bay for the Makahs. So I infer he was probably in Neah Bay on the afternoon of 6-23-14, delivering the newly bought ATVs to his workplace. At this point he is only 160 miles from Staircase Ranger Station. The next day Gilman was last seen alive at Staircase. Am I wrong?

    Is Goeden the publisher of the timelines? It seems like Keyes moved to Alaska pretty soon after the Gilman murder. Did he commit this murder knowing he was soon moving out of state, or maybe he moved away afterwards because he was paranoid of being caught.
    At the end of the day i suppose im just speculating. Very few facts to play with here. I just think it is a little odd that there has really been no new information released after the initial Koenig-Currier information was released. And i remember during the interrogation tapes somebody (atty Kevin Fieldis?) telling Keyes that killers sometimes make confessions in a deal where the facts admitted are kept top secret. I feel like the FBI is keeping Keyes' dirty little secrets secret!
     
  15. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    As discussed before, Keyes may have murdered Thomas Wales. I reread some stuff and found another bit of info to support that theory. Below is a comment about Keyes, followed by a comment about Gidget(Wales killer, imo) and his letter.

    About Keyes:
    "Doll said Keyes was interested in suspense and crime movies and books"

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/alaska-serial-killer-israel-keyes-broke-rule-lost/story?id=17933675


    About Gidget:
    "It has a staccato-type rhythm that we would anticipate seeing from someone who is a fan of that genre, P.I. novels," said Shawn Van Slyke, an FBI supervisory special agent working on the case."

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1970208



    Also, I've been wondering if Keyes was truly a 'serial killer'. My understanding is serial killers repeat specific behaviors. But with Keyes it seems like he was a methodical - opportunist criminal. From the crimes they say he did it seems like he lived his everyday life but then would spend several days in a row on a crime spree out of town. Like a spree criminal, but organized and planned out at the same time. Burglarizing-kidnapping-raping-murdering-bank robbing in one stretch. Then back to everyday life. What made me think about that was the following from the first article I quoted:

    "his ideas were his own. He was very clear about that distinction. That mattered a lot to him."

    "He never identified himself as a serial killer," she said. "That was one of the things that he wanted very much, as this investigation progressed, to keep from being identified as."

    ps. I just realized keyes suicide note has some staccato style to it
     
  16. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Expounding on my previous post script, I wasn't 100% what staccato meant, so I google'd and found some staccato poetry by Maia Szekeley:


    airplanes float
    unmoving in the sky
    tiny orbs of light
    like stars, flickering
    all those people
    going somewhere
    --
    i want to feel you with palms,
    and fingers, and fingertips,
    mouth too, lips




    Now here are some parts from the gidget letter that remind me of that style:

    "...Nice talking lady, I didn’t know her name, she called me, talked to me by name, and asked if I needed some money..."

    and

    "...The wife was out of town, I had no witnesses here, I was curious about who knew me so well. I used cash to pay for all my expenses to avoid an audit trail. No cell phone..."



    And now some staccato parts of Keyes suicide note:

    "Where will you go, you clever little worm, if you bleed your host dry?
    Back in your ride, the night is still young..."

    and

    "...Get in your big car, so you can get to work fast, on roads made of dinosaur bones. Punch in on the clock and sit on your ass, playing stupid ass games on your phone. Paper on your wall, says you got smarts..."


    Regardless of writing style, the lines "I used cash to pay for all my expenses to avoid an audit trail. No cell phone" remind me of how Keyes would do the same, or 'go dark', while commiting crimes .

    And the openning line, "OK, so I was broke and between jobs" I'm pretty sure at the time of the murder Keyes was between jobs too, after discharge from the Army but before the Makah tribe job. I wonder if Keyes left little clues, being a crime novel fan like he was.
    Just now i was looking at the picture of the gidget letter, notice that there are two stamps. I always thought that was weird. I thought the envelope probably only held one 8.5x11 piece of paper. I figured it was because the dude really wanted to ensure it wouldnt be rejected for insufficient postage. But that is stupid. He wouldn't have written so illegibly or placed the stamps so far offset from the side if he was so worried about delivery. There must be a reason. There are two stamps, two different vehicles. The one on the right is a motorized car. The one on the left is an unmotorized wagon. The postmark looks like tread marks. It looks like the wagon ran over the car. The stamps are probably offset from the side to make the postmark line up like this. And maybe the wagon tilted so the end of the post mark is in line with the rear of the wagon? Maybe a hidden anti - technology message? Wagon trumps car! Parts of his suicide note sounded like he was anti - technology, and according to himself he was raised amish.

    http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2006/april/image/envelope_vegas.jpg

    Of course, I'm sure the feds can concretely place him in another, unnamed part of the country during Wales' murder and the letter mailing :)
     
  17. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    And if you look close after Gidget in the return address it looks like there is a faint postmark, where Gidget ' s last name would be. I had always thought that if it were Keyes that wrote it that gidget was a reference to Gidget Gein from the death metal band Marilyn Manson (or whatever u would call that music, idk). The musician Gidget Gein actually quit music back in the day and went to work for the medical examiner as a "bag boy". "Retreiving and cleaning up after the deceased" according to one site. Did the author put that mark there as a clue? Did the FBI white it out for investigative whatever integrity you call it? It does seem like there should be a last name, and now that I notice a faint postmark where it should be I'm intrigued.
    Furthermore, from the low resolution picture I have it seems like the faint postmark is only where the last name would be and not through Gidget like it would be if it was from transfer from a freshly inked letter. If that that is a faint mark I see, only in the space to the right of Gidget and above the charleston/chesterton/skeleton whatever word that is, then I would think he is indicating a surname, and the only Gidget I know with a surname ain't that surfer girl.

    And on second thought, maybe the postmarks are supposed to look like speed lines, with the wagon (author) outrunning the car (feds)
     
  18. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    Crossing over from the general discussion, this is the post I was referencing about two missing women in WA: (posted by WyomingSkyAngel in October 2014)

    I realize this MIGHT be referring to Mary Cooper and Susanna Stodden, but I'm looking at other options because a.) they didn't "disappear", they were murdered; and b.) if the poster was concerned for her safety it suggests that this may be something that occurred in the eastern part of WA (i.e. close to NW Montana), rather than the western part, where the mother and daughter were killed.

    I'm confused on this one though because I lived in Seattle in 06 and early 07 (coincidentally, my time in Seattle was actually VERY close to the entire time Keyes was living and active in the region--September 01 to I think February 07--but whatever) and I don't remember hearing anything about such a thing, whereas Mary Cooper and Susanna Stodden were huge news. Though to be fair I don't remember hearing about Del Sample or Stephen Mason either, and only vaguely remember Gilbert Gilman.

    But I can't find a thing about anyone disappearing in WA that matches what's been suggested above.


    As a sort of side note, I feel like based on Keyes' statements and the discussion about the eastern/western districts that there HAS to be a victim in the eastern portion. I don't believe everything he had to say, and I know it's dangerous to pick and choose, but I do believe him on the Ellensburg piece.

    On that, it would make sense that Ellensburg was a calculated reference point, and if that's the case it makes Gregory Brown a very strong possible victim (I know he's been mentioned at least a couple times on here). I don't like Keyes for MacKenzie Cowell for sort of similar reasons to why I don't really think he killed Tom Wales, although, as with Wales, I sure wouldn't rule him out entirely on that.

    I do think there's a fair chance that Kate Huether was a victim, but I'm pretty sure (although not 100%) that Skamania falls in the western region.

    I wonder if maybe the "couple" in question could have been immigrants (possibly illegal) from the Yakima area. This is nothing but a vague/random consideration, and it's based on nothing but a total absence of other known possibilities for the couple, plus the Ellensburg reference point and Yakima being an area just east (or, technically, southeast) of Ellensburg that is a medium-sized city with a massive immigrant population that could easily disappear with no reports whatsoever.

    Thoughts?
     
  19. cgon4872

    cgon4872 New Member

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    If you guys are interested, I have a list of missing persons from circa 2001-2007 that could be potential Keyes victims. All are from the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana.

    2001:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fairbank_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/franks_jason.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tolley_kyle.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/frick_steven.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/beck_janice.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hoopes_amber.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/larsen_gary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/atsebeha_alemtsehay.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/engle_nicole.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/ocain_rex.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hyatt_eugene.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/arias_aqueda.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4896/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22341/4
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/11874/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/21860/9


    2002:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cook_robert_samuel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jarvi_michael.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/rozelle_brendt.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/davis2_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/greth_kenneth.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barnes_celia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/welchlin_nicholas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/magnuson_anne.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mckoen_jerry.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kincaid_karen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lee_ken.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/z/zakia_shanaz.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/honey-hooks_debra.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burlison_howard.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/benjamin_jay.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7304/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7265/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7697/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7308/4
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25072/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15253/6
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7742/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/21965/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25657/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25658/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20370/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25594/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/19589/11


    2003:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/juarez_sofia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/richards_michael.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cooper_darlene.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/gray_cameron.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burke_casey.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/martinez_carlos.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/johnson_raymond.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sells_scott.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/renshaw_austin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/camacho-garcia_fernando.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/delaney_donald.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jung_dong.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/theis_allen.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25833/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/2874/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4527/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25829/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25667/0


    2004:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/finck_gary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/korvin_joshua.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lott_christine.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tyler_giovanna.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cawston_tina.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/ponomareva_olga.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hedgecock_thomas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lei_jenny.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wright_shelby.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fleshman_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/pennie_glenn.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/holway_douglas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/childress_jeromy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bilet_tor.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/forbes_kimberly.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jenkins_jessica.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/schwabenland_august.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barnard_ahren.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/durkin_kathleen.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18380/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22339/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12738/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25703/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/2114/4


    2005:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fry_donald.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sykes_deborah.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sample_delmar.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barton_brian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/marl_cynthia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sloan_ellen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dehoop_wendy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kuich_pamela.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/rodriguez-hernandez_luis.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bufton_lawrence.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tolson_roxann.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dulaney_valerie.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/elkins_kevin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jung_roger.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hoogen_patrick.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/carroll_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/shoptaugh_glenda.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stephens_roy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/andrews_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/n/nordquist_kevin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/ohana_lyn.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/23370/6
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/23090/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22746/9
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7293/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18350/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25596/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18936/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20361/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25697/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20042/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7513/12


    2006:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/pichler_joseph.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/gonzales_russell.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tademy_cris.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/y/yellowmule_levi.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cavan_jeffery.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/rideout_sandy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/duna_iulian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mahurin_patrick.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moore_joseph_ernest.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/morrison_brian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mason_stephen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/gilman_gilbert.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/rose_katherine.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/perez-miranda_jose.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mclean_james.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/white_caleta.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/adame_laura.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/boehlke_samuel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/morningsun_seth.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/carrozzo_salvatore.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22335/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13826/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22338/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22578/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12054/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7998/5
    http://www.nampn.org/cases/lee_alicia_renee.html


    2007:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kempf_darrel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burt_jeramy.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22393/0
     
  20. cgon4872

    cgon4872 New Member

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    I personally think that if the "couple" in question were indeed immigrants, the chances of them being reported missing are extremely low. I've looked though almost all missing person reports from 2001-2007 in the western United States and none fit the criteria you describe. I also feel that if a victim wasn't reported missing, Keyes would have felt obligated to tell LE about it. I don't have any way to prove (or disprove) that, but it's a hunch I've always had.

    My favorite for the couple victim has always been Kami Vollendroff and Eugene Hyatt who went missing from Depoe Bay, Oregon on November 21, 2001. They went missing from Boiler Bay state park, but LE believes they both drowned and the case has pretty much stalled at that theory.
     

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