!!!!!!!!!! Patsy did it!!!!!!!!

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by sandraladeda
good Lord, DrDetect!! That is uncanny! How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?

What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!

What can an IDI possibly have to say about this?

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory. This link to that ONE handwriting analysis (and there have been plenty) has been posted here over and over again, and the IDI's for the most part have been entirely mum. This is what particularly bothers me about many of the IDI theorists here... they aren't interested in finding out who really killed JBR, they are interested in pointing at anyone who is NOT a Ramsey no matter what convaluted twisting of the facts that requires.

I HATE the idea that the parents had anything whatsoever to do with JBR's murder, but the FACTS are indisputable... your own eyeballs don't lie to you. There is no question whatsoever that Patsy wrote that phoney ransom note and at least SHE (if not JR) had something to do with covering up JBR's murder.

This is also what bothers me so much about the DA and various Ramsey investigators... they've SEEN this stuff and are STILL running off after an "intruder". This case needed a special prosecutor from Day One.

 

[TexMex]

Yeah and how about the exclamation marks in Karr's yearbook writing. And the fact that we now know how feminine Karr really is. Many people thought over the years the note had to be written by a female or an adolescent. Karr has characteristics of both and it would show in his writing even if he tried to disguise it. And there's that lower case d.

The writing in the ransom note matches his way more than Patsy's.

ITA aspidistra...as does Kobilinsky.

Also Karr was obsessed with the kidnapping of Polly Klass which was in 1993....IMO this also could have drawn him to lines from movies about kidnapping.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../25/lkl.01.html

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, how much do you put into handwriting analysis if that comes up?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I'll tell you, Larry, handwriting analysis is accepted across the country in every court but being that said you have to understand it's not the same thing as DNA. And I think the reliability strongly depends on the capabilities of the expert of the analyst and what his training is and what kind of information he's looking at.

For example, looking at a yearbook that may have been 20, 25 years old, looking at that writing and comparing it to the ransom note, which was about nine and a half years old, you know, people's handwriting changes. It changes over time. So, you really have to have writing contemporaneous with the document that you're looking at.

But despite that, I have looked at these two documents myself. I have found a number of, a significant number of similarities with some very unusual letters and I've looked at the geometry and it seems to me I would say it's more likely than not that Mr. Karr was the author of that note. Again, I'm not a handwriting expert but I, you know, using various methods that's the way it looks to me.

 

[aussiesheila]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory. This link to that ONE handwriting analysis (and there have been plenty) has been posted here over and over again, and the IDI's for the most part have been entirely mum. This is what particularly bothers me about many of the IDI theorists here... they aren't interested in finding out who really killed JBR, they are interested in pointing at anyone who is NOT a Ramsey no matter what convaluted twisting of the facts that requires.

I HATE the idea that the parents had anything whatsoever to do with JBR's murder, but the FACTS are indisputable... your own eyeballs don't lie to you. There is no question whatsoever that Patsy wrote that phoney ransom note and at least SHE (if not JR) had something to do with covering up JBR's murder.

This is also what bothers me so much about the DA and various Ramsey investigators... they've SEEN this stuff and are STILL running off after an "intruder". This case needed a special prosecutor from Day One.

I am one IDI who is absolutely certain that Patsy wrote the note. So there.

 

[Show Me]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...

Another letter "e"...

A letter "f"...

Another letter "f"...

A letter "i"...

A letter "n"...

A letter "p"...

The much discussed letter "q"...

A letter "r"...

A letter "s"...

A letter "t" (circled)...

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...

Another letter "t"...

Yet another letter "t"...

A letter "u"...

Another letter "u"...

A letter "v"...

A letter "y"...

Another letter "y"...

A letter "z" (circled)...

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

Far more matches than Nancy Grace's disqualified by a judge and not certified handwriting expert.

 

[stonewall]

More matches than Karr's few letters.

Even where the letters run together...Patsy has Karr beat as the author of the ransom note.

How can we come to the conclusion that Patsy beat Karr as the author of the ransom note when, to my knowledge, he has not been asked to write the ransom note word for word like Patsy was? Maybe the reason more letters match between Patsy and the note is because her sample writing was the exact duplicate and contained the exact words of the ransom note. I do not believe the year book writings did. You are not comparing apples to apples here. They need for Karr to write the note and then compare it like they did Patsy to get a better handle on who beat who.

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?

 

[TexMex]

How can we come to the conclusion that Patsy beat Karr as the author of the ransom note when, to my knowledge, he has not been asked to write the ransom note word for word like Patsy was? Maybe the reason more letters match between Patsy and the note is because her sample writing was the exact duplicate and contained the exact words of the ransom note. I do not believe the year book writings did. You are not comparing apples to apples here. They need for Karr to write the note and then compare it like they did Patsy to get a better handle on who beat who.

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?

Morning stonewall

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.

 

[stonewall]

Morning stonewall

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.

That's good information TexMex. I didn't know that. I suppose this is why most of the experts went with "inconclusive".

 

[Lurker Steve]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory.

And this doesn't apply to RDI's?

 

[Maybe So]

Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

Good post. I'd have to vote to take a closer look at Karr before I would look at Patsy again. After all Patsy endured 10 years!!!! of scrutiny and wasn't taken to trial.

I think the writing in the note does resemble PR handwriting but it also resembles a lot of other people's handwriting too including some aspects of Karr's.

I just don't see a distraught mother who just killed her daughter sitting there conjuring up movie quotes to put into the note...... was Patsy known for quoting lines from movies a lot? Karr on the other hand he does speak in a rambling way with lots of fantasy thrown in.

If he wasn't in Boulder it can't be him............but other than that he makes the perfect suspect to my way of thinking. Place him in Boulder and I will be pretty convinced that he killed JBR.

 

[Maybe So]

Ok, I know this is out there, but, could Patsy have awoke early that morning, went to check on JonBenet, found her dead, and just assumed that Burke or John had killed her? From there it would have been a plan to make sure the police thought it was a kidnapping gone awry. It's possible that Patsy went to her grave believing that her husband or son killed her daughter. Also possible that the 3 of them never really knew which one commited the crime, but stayed true to their story in order to protect the others.

Same thing ran through my head a time or two when I would ponder if a Ramsey could write the note but not be the killer.

I wondered if they found JBR dead in the basement and were afraid police would think one of them did it even if they didn't. So they add the note. Sounds like a stupid thing to do....but who knows? Perhaps each secretly suspects the others...but doesn't really know for sure and they protected each other and screwed up the evidence of who really did it at the same time.

I sit on the fence in this case. Not sure who did it. Some days it seems Ramseys must be involved...other times I just don't think so. I see aspects of both which makes me wonder if what you say could actually be true.

The DNA under JBRs fingernails and on her underwear and what I believe are stun gun marks just piont away from the family to me. I don't buy the garment factory worker leaving DNA on the panties at all, how'd that get under her fingernails too? If a parent killed her I could see the hit on the head but I can't see them garotting JBR or stun gunning her. I also don't see Burke holding up to the questioning all those times if he knew a single thing either.

 

[Maybe So]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory.

I gotta agree with the person who said that the same holds true of many RDI's. To the point that discussion of other possibilities often becomes impossible. The door is slammed on discussing the DNA, the stun gun marks, the shoe print (definately not Burke's), the palm prints etc.

I am a fence sitter but I believe an intruder is a distinct possibility. I also believe it possible Patsy wrote the note. I am open to almost anything that makes sense though many things do not make sense.

People need to open up to more possibilities. It's ok to have a theory....just don't chisel is in stone.

I think a lot of IDI's will admit that Karr may not be the right guy which is more give that I see from some who think Patsy did it.

 

[wenchie]

Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

JMK is obsessed with Jonbenet. He talks about her in a romantic way and believes he's in love with her.

The ransom note writer is obsessed with John Ramsey, and with images of violence and death (not love and sex).

Notice how JMK even seems to be in love with the name "Jonbenet", and yet the ranson note writer doesn't use her name once.

The ransom note looks (to me, anyway) like it's got an underlying message to John Ramsey: "I know you're going to figure out that this isn't really a kidnapping, but keep your mouth shut about it, okay?" Patsy practically spells it out for him at the end of the note - that it was written by her, and that he'd better play along with it or his life will be ruined.

If JMK had seem Jonbenet at a pageant and become obsessed with her - he would have seen her with her MOTHER, not her FATHER. Her father would have been an incidental figure to JMK. He would have seen Patsy's attachment to her daughter and played on that, not on John's relationship with Jonbenet (which he would have no knowledge of at all).

Not to even mention that he would have had no reason to write a note at all.......

 

[openminded1]

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?

As I have been looking at the note of late, I often remark how much it looks like my own handwriting as well. I swear I was nowhere near Boulder Co. at Xmas in 1996!!!!!

Did I hear or read somewhere that the ?1st wife? claims that Karr signed letters to her with SBTC?

 

[Peter Hamilton]

DrDirect--those links are amazing--I had only seen part of those comparisons before--How can there be any doubt that Patsy wrote that note??--How can anyone refute it?--

 

[Solace]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E.jpg

Another letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E2.jpg

A letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F.jpg

Another letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F2.jpg

A letter "i"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-I.jpg

A letter "n"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-N.jpg

A letter "p"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-P.jpg

The much discussed letter "q"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Q.jpg

A letter "r"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-R.jpg

A letter "s"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-S.jpg

A letter "t" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2b.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2a.jpg

Another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T.jpg

Yet another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T3.jpg

A letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U.jpg

Another letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U2.jpg

A letter "v"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-V.jpg

A letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y.jpg

Another letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y2.jpg

A letter "z" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Z.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Zb.jpg

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

It is incredible!

 

[rashomon]

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.

It would interest me what your opinion is after reading this (and what Solace quoted in the post preceding mine, I just saw her post):

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

To me all this screams that Patsy wrote the note.

SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the rasom note.

 

[TexMex]

It would interest me what your opinion is after reading this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
To me it screams that Patsy wrote the note.

SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the rasom note.

Hi rashomon

I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.

 

[stonewall]

JMK is obsessed with Jonbenet. He talks about her in a romantic way and believes he's in love with her.

The ransom note writer is obsessed with John Ramsey, and with images of violence and death (not love and sex).

Notice how JMK even seems to be in love with the name "Jonbenet", and yet the ranson note writer doesn't use her name once.

The ransom note looks (to me, anyway) like it's got an underlying message to John Ramsey: "I know you're going to figure out that this isn't really a kidnapping, but keep your mouth shut about it, okay?" Patsy practically spells it out for him at the end of the note - that it was written by her, and that he'd better play along with it or his life will be ruined.

If JMK had seem Jonbenet at a pageant and become obsessed with her - he would have seen her with her MOTHER, not her FATHER. Her father would have been an incidental figure to JMK. He would have seen Patsy's attachment to her daughter and played on that, not on John's relationship with Jonbenet (which he would have no knowledge of at all).

Not to even mention that he would have had no reason to write a note at all.......

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

 

[wenchie]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

I don't think she was calm. The thoughts in the note are all over the place, as if the person writing it were under pressure and had to keep pulling themselves back to the thought at hand.

Patsy may have sat there for several hours, distraught, panicked, and confused. I believe there was only one draft of the letter.

I think her survival instinct took over.

She may not have even lain the note there under a few seconds before she started screaming for John.

It never did make any sense that she would step OVER the note on a spiral staircase in the dark or semi-darkness. Why would you think that it was something that shouldn't be stepped on or picked up?

She was making sure that none of her fingerprints got on it once she had wiped it clean, IMO.

 

[sandraladeda]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

I doubt a mother could keep her composure as she lies to the police and says her 2 sons have been carjacked by black men when in fact, she has driven them into a lake. Yet Susan Smith managed it.

I also doubt a mother could claim to have been accosted on a deserted road while driving late at night, and being shot, along with her children, when, in fact, she herself shot her children (killing 2, crippling the one survivor) and turned the gun on herself to lend credibilty to her lie. Yet Dianne Downs did manage to do so.

Neither mother exactly came unglued, concocting their lies to cover up ther crimes.

Perhaps Patsy Ramsey would have come unglued had she been questioned thoroughly in the day or 2 after JB's death, instead of being allowed to wait 4 months before sitting for a thorough police questioning session. Who knows?