Patsy Ramsey

[InstantProof]

With all the disarray, how odd that Patsy can say this bowl and spoon does not look like the way anyone in the house would fix a snack.

 

[Theonly1]

That's correct.....and leads to a curious puzzle.

The Rams have a basement that's uncomfortably warm and stuffy in the winter.

They have to open the train room window a litte to let in fresh cold air.

Sometime during the morning of the 26th, JR reportedly goes alone to the train room and closes the window, which is open about an inch.

He doesn't tell police about this until seven months later.

Did JR really close the window? FW, during his first trip to the basement, didn't notice whether the windw was open or closed.

If the window was open, why did JR close it when, at the time, police were looking for evidence of an intruder?

JR told police the doors and window were secured on the night of the 25th, so perhaps he didn't want them to notice that that window was open. But wait. If that were true, why tell them it was open and he closed it? Why mention it at all?

Maybe he closed the window because, despite the heat from the furnace, the basement had grown cool on the sub zero night of the 25th. But, why bother to close the window an inch to conserve heat when there was a gaping hole in the pane?

What could his purpose have been in telling this story?

:scared:

Open a window to keep the rooms cooler for the decomposing body. Sorry, but I will call it out.

 

[Anti-K]

Hmmm.

I don't understand the confusion.

Patsy had prior knowledge JonBenet had pineapple in her system.

She knew JonBenet liked pineapple.

The knew the bowl & spoon were household items.

She did the shopping, she knew there was pineapple in the fridge.

Does Patsy offer the most reasonable & logical explanation as to how it got there? Something like, "I didn't feed her pineapple when we got home, looking at that bowl with the big spoon, she must have gotten up at some point and ate it herself because the set up looks like something a child would do"?


No.

Even the most simple mundane question ...it turned into a ridiculous trip down a rabbit hole. Ramsey style.

All IMO






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If you mean 2 percent’s confusion – I don’t understand that either. If you mean Mrs Ramsey’s confusion than that’s a different story. She simply did not remember or did not know anything about the pineapple. Someone else put it in the bowl – lots of folks visiting the house Christmas before they left for the Whites – and, Mrs Ramsey never noticed (why would she?), and the setup was nothing more than an accumulation of unrelated items.
...

AK

 

[Linda7NJ]

If you mean 2 percent’s confusion – I don’t understand that either. If you mean Mrs Ramsey’s confusion than that’s a different story. She simply did not remember or did not know anything about the pineapple. Someone else put it in the bowl – lots of folks visiting the house Christmas before they left for the Whites – and, Mrs Ramsey never noticed (why would she?), and the setup was nothing more than an accumulation of unrelated items.

...



AK

IIRC Patsy claims to have cleared that space herself and no way should it have been there.

The ridiculousness went so far as to have John "pondering out loud" that if an intruder brought her down and tried to feed it to her she would have screamed bloody murder...eyeroll.

Really John? You even gave that a serious thought???

All IMO


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[Anti-K]

IIRC Patsy claims to have cleared that space herself and no way should it have been there.

The ridiculousness went so far as to have John "pondering out loud" that if an intruder brought her down and tried to feed it to her she would have screamed bloody murder...eyeroll.

Really John? You even gave that a serious thought???

All IMO


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Sure, but it is there. So, either Mrs Ramsey remembered incorrectly or the bowl and other items were set there after she cleared that area.
...

AK

 

[Frigga]

Sure, but it is there. So, either Mrs Ramsey remembered incorrectly or the bowl and other items were set there after she cleared that area.
...

AK

Or, she lied.

Come on.

 

[Meara]

Open a window to keep the rooms cooler for the decomposing body. Sorry, but I will call it out.

That's an interesting idea. I don't think the details support it, though.

______________

For reference, the line above is 1 inch long in the actual size view on a MacBook. The blue part is 1/8 inch.

In his 1997 and 1998 interviews, JR described finding the center window in the train room variously as cracked open, open about an eighth of an inch, and open less than an inch.

1997 Interview
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

1998 Interview
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

In the 1998 interview, JR said that the train room "would really get hot" in the winter and indicated that, when the children played there, the window had to be opened not a little, as I incorrectly recalled, but "wide open" to lessen the heat to a tolerable level. I'm not great at estimating, but from photos, it looks like "wide open" meant about three feet or so (a beam prevented the window from opening completely).

If the window had to be open that wide just to make the train room tolerable, I don't see how an opening of 1/8 to 7/8 of an inch would have cooled the wine cellar enough to slow decomposition significantly, especially since that room was closed and right next to the boiler.

All that said - and not meaning at all to be peevish - my question was not about what purpose a slightly open window might have served, but what JR's purpose was in telling the story he told about the window.

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~

All that said - and not meaning at all to be peevish - my question was not about what purpose a slightly open window might have served, but what JR's purpose was in telling the story he told about the window.

Hi, Meara,
I assume you’re looking for an answer beyond consistency is not an R strong suit? 

The whole window story always appeared to me as a “staging” story supplied fantastically by JR, before he’d really thought it all the way through. So with that bias upfront, my response reflects mho.

In the first interview (1997), JR tells the interviewers that he came upon the window and estimated it was open a little 1/8”: But the window was open, about an eighth of an inch, and just kind latched it. So I went back down with Fleet, we looked around for some glass again, still didn’t see any glass. And I told him that I thought that the break came from when I did that last summer.

JR then tells the interviewers in 1998, ( LS, intruder theorist, is among the interviewers) that the window was open 1” before he closed it and latched it. What JR did not know or remember at the time was that FW had been in the basement between 6:30 and 7:00 am and found the window closed and unlatched. FW did not see the window as open, according to Kolar. It’s also notable that JR took FW to this room to witness the broken window when the two of them searched the basement. JR leaves FW there to ponder this for a moment, while he dashes to the WC and finds JB.

JR seems to be embellishing his broken window story as he considers it over the years. Maybe an 1” opening sounds more believable than 1/8”? IDK. If there is one piece of evidence of desperate staging, or a desperate story, this has to be in my top 5. moo

From the interviews, uncertainty of JR in parentheses: The whole story about how during the previous summer (or it could have been 2 or 3 times he had to get in the home this way) JR came by cab (he thinks) maybe car (no that wasn’t it) and took off his suit, except for his shirt, (but maybe he left his shirt on) then kicked out a hole with his shoe, reached in and unlatched the window - seems to me like an attempt to create a logical opening for the intruder.

BTW, neither PR nor JR can figure out if the window was ever repaired. And neither LHP nor the gardener ever remember that broken window.

In year 2000 DOI was published. In DOI JR wrote that he finds the pane broken and the window open. He also sees the Samsonite suitcase there, right under it. JR muses “maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house.” He does not say in DOI that he forgot to mention this broken window to LE at the time, and it was 4 months later it was brought up.

So my apologies, that I cannot find logic in the story. Perhaps someone else can. Except from JR's story about entering through this window, we once again witness JR in his skivvies, as it just so frequently happens to him in his times of trial. moo :scared: mho

 

[Chewy]

Astute ideas questfortrue! Some interesting ideas there!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Or, she lied.

Come on.

And again. What does it profit her to lie. If she knows it is there, Lying is not going to make it not there. Lying is the one thing that does not make sense here.

 

[Linda7NJ]

And again. What does it profit her to lie. If she knows it is there, Lying is not going to make it not there. Lying is the one thing that does not make sense here.

Yet, that's exactly what they all did.

I can only think of one reason to lie during a murder investigation...when the victim is your own child.

They have something to hide.

And Hide it, they did.
Quite successfully.

No justice for JonBenet.


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[noneareworthy]

The stories, the staging,the ransom note, even the murder itself ....all seem like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Interesting that afterwards there is significant effort put out so they are not interviewed separately or without attorneys and without unknown questions ever again.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't know that JR would be thinking about the broken window as way to keep the basement cooler to slow decomp. I just don't think, in the chaos of that horrible night- that he'd be thinking that. I DO think that one of the reasons he had to find her was because police did NOT. I think that possibly in the beginning the plan was to hide her body in a place no one would find her...then after police left, they'd call police to say she had been found- dead- because the kidnappers had been watching the house and saw police arrive along with the rest of the neighborhood. And they'd been told not to call anyone so....

When it became apparent police were NOT going to leave them alone in the house after all, that they were going to have to leave her behind in the basement undiscovered and decomposing while the police sealed the crime scene- to be found by cadaver dogs after neighbor's complained about the smell...well I think it is obvious why JR rushed to the basement as soon as Arndt suggested he "take another look around".

 

[gramcracker]

Yet, that's exactly what they all did.

I can only think of one reason to lie during a murder investigation...when the victim is your own child.

They have something to hide.

And Hide it, they did.
Quite successfully.

No justice for JonBenet.

I mostly agree with your post except that I can think of two reasons to lie: #1 when the victim is your own child and #2 when you need to run interference between the investigators and your remaining child

 

[Anti-K]

Hi, Meara,
I assume you’re looking for an answer beyond consistency is not an R strong suit? 

The whole window story always appeared to me as a “staging” story supplied fantastically by JR, before he’d really thought it all the way through. So with that bias upfront, my response reflects mho.

In the first interview (1997), JR tells the interviewers that he came upon the window and estimated it was open a little 1/8”: But the window was open, about an eighth of an inch, and just kind latched it. So I went back down with Fleet, we looked around for some glass again, still didn’t see any glass. And I told him that I thought that the break came from when I did that last summer.

JR then tells the interviewers in 1998, ( LS, intruder theorist, is among the interviewers) that the window was open 1” before he closed it and latched it. What JR did not know or remember at the time was that FW had been in the basement between 6:30 and 7:00 am and found the window closed and unlatched. FW did not see the window as open, according to Kolar. It’s also notable that JR took FW to this room to witness the broken window when the two of them searched the basement. JR leaves FW there to ponder this for a moment, while he dashes to the WC and finds JB.

JR seems to be embellishing his broken window story as he considers it over the years. Maybe an 1” opening sounds more believable than 1/8”? IDK. If there is one piece of evidence of desperate staging, or a desperate story, this has to be in my top 5. moo

From the interviews, uncertainty of JR in parentheses: The whole story about how during the previous summer (or it could have been 2 or 3 times he had to get in the home this way) JR came by cab (he thinks) maybe car (no that wasn’t it) and took off his suit, except for his shirt, (but maybe he left his shirt on) then kicked out a hole with his shoe, reached in and unlatched the window - seems to me like an attempt to create a logical opening for the intruder.

BTW, neither PR nor JR can figure out if the window was ever repaired. And neither LHP nor the gardener ever remember that broken window.

In year 2000 DOI was published. In DOI JR wrote that he finds the pane broken and the window open. He also sees the Samsonite suitcase there, right under it. JR muses “maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house.” He does not say in DOI that he forgot to mention this broken window to LE at the time, and it was 4 months later it was brought up.

So my apologies, that I cannot find logic in the story. Perhaps someone else can. Except from JR's story about entering through this window, we once again witness JR in his skivvies, as it just so frequently happens to him in his times of trial. moo :scared: mho

White, in his depo, claims to not remember if the window was closed, open or simply ajar.

Mr Ramsey claims that the window was ajar: 1/8 to one inch. I don’t think he measured it and it doesn’t seem a meaningful detail to remember, but he remembers that it was ajar.

I can understand Mr Ramsey, that morning, looking at that window and thinking nothing of it because 1) it was already broken and there were no signs of a new break, 2) it was normally left ajar, 3) the police had been through the basement and had made no notice of it. However, I can also understand it coming back to him later in the day, and showing it to White, because it does seem an obvious possible entry point.

I know some people find Mr Ramseys’ description of his basement entry to be – uh – strange. But, I know some people find it quite believable and some who say they could see themselves doing things in the exact same way.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

good info here re the window
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6296096&postcount=36"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)[/ame]


and here, re footprints in the snow
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6461140&postcount=100"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)[/ame]


the links ^ are from the Rebuttal to Discovery I.D. Show forum
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=455"]Rebuttal to Discovery I.D. Show about JonBenet - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Linda7NJ]

White, in his depo, claims to not remember if the window was closed, open or simply ajar.



Mr Ramsey claims that the window was ajar: 1/8 to one inch. I don’t think he measured it and it doesn’t seem a meaningful detail to remember, but he remembers that it was ajar.



I can understand Mr Ramsey, that morning, looking at that window and thinking nothing of it because 1) it was already broken and there were no signs of a new break, 2) it was normally left ajar, 3) the police had been through the basement and had made no notice of it. However, I can also understand it coming back to him later in the day, and showing it to White, because it does seem an obvious possible entry point.



I know some people find Mr Ramseys’ description of his basement entry to be – uh – strange. But, I know some people find it quite believable and some who say they could see themselves doing things in the exact same way.

...



AK

It's best to trust first statements IMO
When things are fresh.

It's rather normal to forget mundane things with the passage of time.

The Ramsey's problem is they EMBELLISH over time.

All IMO


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[Blue Bottle 01]

Just throwing this out there... What if the murder and ALL the staging was Patsy?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just throwing this out there... What if the murder and ALL the staging was Patsy?

There's a thread for that.
Patsy Only Patsy

I started it


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[questfortrue]

White, in his depo, claims to not remember if the window was closed, open or simply ajar.

~RSBM~

Hi, AK,
I’m not meaning to sound grumpy about your last comments, but I felt I’d be remiss if I didn’t call your attention to something which made me flinch. This is about FW’s testimony in a depo. AFAIK, FW’s testimony in the depo from the Wolf case is still sealed. (BTW, it is marked as “sealed” on the ACR website.) If this depo info can’t be verified by anyone, and if it’s alleged to have been obtained “questionably” and published illegally, it does make me uncomfortable to see it brought forward on this forum. I can’t speak for anyone else here; just my thoughts.

I do get your point about people forgetting details as time passes.