Perhaps she did it for JonBenet

[arielilane]

Yes, I agree. Drama queen Patsy Ramsey (it is so fitting). "Patsy collapsed right on top of JonBenet," said the source, "and then she got on her knees and screamed, 'Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, Please raise my baby!'"

 

[JMO8778]

I think she had that line planned,I really do.Not that the murder was planned,but at some point,perhaps after writing the RN,she knew she was going to be faced with how to act when JB's body was found,so a dramatic line was needed.
Also the way she acted and dressed like Jackie Kennedy at the funeral was quite the drama queen as well,esp. kneeling at the casket.

 

[BBB167893]

Michael Kane said, quote, "it was a very theatrical production, and Patsy's a very theatrical person. She loves being known as the mother of a dead beauty queen."

 

[DeeDee249]

I think she had that line planned,I really do.Not that the murder was planned,but at some point,perhaps after writing the RN,she knew she was going to be faced with how to act when JB's body was found,so a dramatic line was needed.
Also the way she acted and dressed like Jackie Kennedy at the funeral was quite the drama queen as well,esp. kneeling at the casket.

I believe in her fiction novel, DOI, she even mentions how the image of Jacquie Kennedy at the funeral of her husband looked in her back veil and admits to wanting that same look. After all, planning your funeral ensemble for world-wide media coverage is SO important.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think she had that line planned,I really do.Not that the murder was planned,but at some point,perhaps after writing the RN,she knew she was going to be faced with how to act when JB's body was found,so a dramatic line was needed.
Also the way she acted and dressed like Jackie Kennedy at the funeral was quite the drama queen as well,esp. kneeling at the casket.

I believe in her fiction novel, DOI, she even mentions how the image of Jacquie Kennedy at the funeral of her husband looked in her back veil and admits to wanting that same look. After all, planning your funeral ensemble for world-wide media coverage is SO important.

 

[JMO8778]

I believe in her fiction novel, DOI, she even mentions how the image of Jacquie Kennedy at the funeral of her husband looked in her back veil and admits to wanting that same look. After all, planning your funeral ensemble for world-wide media coverage is SO important.

she did mention it in DOI,I recall that.so much for needing AP to retrieve funeral clothes,esp. when they had a dept. store deliver them anyway.and if she needed something for JB,she could have had those delivered as well.If I recall correctly,her dress was a pre-owned pageant gown.

 

[JaneInOz]

Wow i didnt know half of this stuff about this Case.
Its a shame though that if the truth does come out and it was Patsy that did this despicable thing to her own daughter, I mean the staging , the paint brush, the desecrating of the body , its a shame that she will never be brought to justice...
So ? is this another mother that has mistakenly killed her child and then elaborately covered it up ?

Its certainly interesting about the wanting to *immortalize* (if you will) JBR in death....

 

[Trino]

I haven't posted in ages, but I just had to mention that, yes, I, too believe PR is the culprit, but what about JR? He had to have known what went on, yet he's still walking the streets.

 

[BBB167893]

Wow i didnt know half of this stuff about this Case.
Its a shame though that if the truth does come out and it was Patsy that did this despicable thing to her own daughter, I mean the staging , the paint brush, the desecrating of the body , its a shame that she will never be brought to justice...

Not OUR justice.

So ? is this another mother that has mistakenly killed her child and then elaborately covered it up ?

That is what I believe.

Its certainly interesting about the wanting to *immortalize* (if you will) JBR in death....

Immortalize is a good word for it. And it worked, didn't it?

 

[JaneInOz]

Yeah Superdave it did , sadly..........

So i've been reading, but haven't seen it yet, what is the concensus as to why PR may have *accidentlly* killed JBR ? and how ? as in struck her ? for not doing something properly?

I have read the Autopsy reports previously but what came first ? the strangulation of the skull fracture ? and does anyone know what those *rust colored* marks were on her ?

It seems so morbid to be so intrigued by this little girls case but for me I would just one day like to know what happened to her and WHY...I just can not imagine how horrible it must have been for her especially if it was her mother that did this...

PS I meant to say That the ransom note was the most laughable piece of crap I've ever read..how anyone was expected to believe that was from a *real* kidnapper is a JOKE
That ransom not was definitely a staging....Its just ridiculous ! no one writes like that LOL

ETA : Gosh I just read somewhere else on line about the Policeman's theory on why the mother did it - ie JBR wet the bed and the drama ensued from there...That is very plausible, some parents have no patience with things like that and you do hear a lot how parents get angry at children that wet the bed and so on...

I also saw a photo of PR at JBR Grave, where she has her hands up near her throat - almost symbolic of omg how could I have done this to you - my first thought on seeing that photo was how the hands were symbolic of choking..

 

[DeeDee249]

This is kind of a rehash, but many here believe that PR killed her daughter accidentally in rage, probably brought on by a soiling/wetting incident, exacerbated by possibly an interaction between alcohol (at the party) and medications PR was on. It wasn't premeditated. PR could have slammed JBR into something like a tub/sink edge or faucet, or she was bashed with the flashlight.
The coroner who did the autopsy made no decision about whether the head bash or strangulation came first. All that it known os that she was still alive when each happened. We know she was alive when she was strangled because there were petechial hemmorhages (which only occur while alive), and she was alive when she was bashed on the head because there was bleeding under the scalp (which only occurs when alive). However, she did not live long after the head bash, or there would have been more bleeding and evidence or "organization" of the injury (this means evidence of the injury attempting to heal itself, which begins soon after the injury). Many here believe the bash came first, and rendered her immediately unconscious, possibly comatose. At that point, I believe PR told her husband, and the plot to cover up what happened began. I do have other theories, all of them involving the family.
Other medical examiners who have studied the case believe the head bash came first.
The autopsy never disclosed the cause of the "purple/rust abrasions", and there have been many who think the marks were caused by a stun gun (the Rs were found to be in possession of a video manual on a stun gun, though a stun gun itself was not found.) This could have been proven if the coroner had tested the marks instead of simply describing them, and there was talk of exhuming the body while it was still early enough to test the flesh. This was never done, and it is too late now after 12 years. There are some things we'll simply never know.

 

[JaneInOz]

Hi yes Ive just spent some time reading a few different places..and I read all of that - it definitely seems to be the most plausible...
And then there is the whole situation with the brother burke...and how he was supposedly asleep, but that the phone wasnt placed down properly and they continued to hear after having it magnified ( the taped conversation to 911) the mother saying Help me Jesus Help me and Burke saying "but what did you find" when he was supposed to be asleep.....

I agree, I think the mother lost it at JBR about wetting and pushed her violently into the sink or bench .. and then began the elaborate coverup.

But can I ask if someone like CA Can be indited for murder when there is no body, how do people like the mother and father of JBR get away with it when there is a lot more evidence pointing to them...?
I will never understand the justice system anywhere!
The ransom note was not written by a kidnapper - its a joke and written by someone in a highly delirious state of be it alcohol, drugs or emotion, they were off their rocker when they wrote it...kidnappers usually write short and to the point letters of demand and give away as little as possible, they don't usually keep repeating themselves over and over again, and why give so much in the way of *lettering* to be analyzed...no the ransom LETTER ! (hardly a note lol) was definitely a dead giveaway for not being a kidnap gone wrong, but rather a elaborate hoax as to look like one....

You know, they say that cancer is caused by a stressor...We all the gene in us but that something triggers it to go *bad* and high stress can be such a trigger...I find it interesting that on one hand she was *free* from cancer but then died after JBR's death...did the guilt eat her alive with cancer to her death?

And then on the other hand I find it very odd about the supposed letter she had sent to the lawyers for after her death as in PR's death, saying for it to be opened only after her death, and stating that JBR had in fact committed suicide (yeah ok right because she put on 5 pounds !) and stating to her dead daughter " i'll be with you soon"

Wondering also whether she killed her because she didnt want her to live if she was going to die and she knew the cancer was back (thought it was back) ?

So many unanswered questions and the trouble with PR Dying is that we will never know what was in her head .

 

[DeeDee249]

I've never heard of that letter, but how anyone could believe that JBR (a child of SIX) bashed her own head and then as she lay in a coma wrapped a garrote around her own neck (tied in the BACK) and pulled it tight. It is just so ludicrous on so many levels I'd have to regard it as the writings of a deranged person. If there was such a letter, I'd have to assume PR was claiming her daughter hanged herself and the skull fracture was the result of her falling. First of all, suicides by hanging remain in the noose and hanging suspended until discovered, unless they are not discovered for so long that decomposition has occurred and the body "rotted" out of the noose. JBR had a garrote around her neck, not a noose (there is a difference).
The body was not found hanging. The autopsy would have discovered that, as the marks from the garrote would be non-circumferential and the livor mortis would have been in her feet and legs instead of her face and back. Rigor mortis would have frozen her in that hanging position as well. FW was right behind JR as they "discovered" the body. He'd have seen her hanging.
PR's cancer could certainly have recurred because of the stress of covering up her daughter's murder, but ovarian cancer has a very high rate of recurrence, regardless of the stress in someone's life.

 

[JaneInOz]

I've never heard of that letter, but how anyone could believe that JBR (a child of SIX) bashed her own head and then as she lay in a coma wrapped a garrote around her own neck (tied in the BACK) and pulled it tight. It is just so ludicrous on so many levels I'd have to regard it as the writings of a deranged person. If there was such a letter, I'd have to assume PR was claiming her daughter hanged herself and the skull fracture was the result of her falling. First of all, suicides by hanging remain in the noose and hanging suspended until discovered, unless they are not discovered for so long that decomposition has occurred and the body "rotted" out of the noose. JBR had a garrote around her neck, not a noose (there is a difference).
The body was not found hanging. The autopsy would have discovered that, as the marks from the garrote would be non-circumferential and the livor mortis would have been in her feet and legs instead of her face and back. Rigor mortis would have frozen her in that hanging position as well. FW was right behind JR as they "discovered" the body. He'd have seen her hanging.
PR's cancer could certainly have recurred because of the stress of covering up her daughter's murder, but ovarian cancer has a very high rate of recurrence, regardless of the stress in someone's life.

I know , sadly, My own Mother died of it...She had no remission though..

In regards to the letter I couldnt agree more , it is absolutely ridiculous, - I will hunt down the link and post it here from what I read about it..

Has any one read this page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/jonbenet.html

I was reading through going to so many of those things, I didn't know a lot of those ...

ETA I found one link to the letter re the suicide http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/06252006_11_suicide.shtml

ETA@

Good Grief is this true ? http://www.stewwebb.com/jonbenet_ramsey_murder_investigator_speaks_out.htm

"Both Patsy and her sister were CIA sex slaves, 'turned over' to the (CIA) by their Father and programmed via a major trauma-based mind-control program known as MKultra."

And the rest of it ? although I have read about the GB stuff so not asking about that - just the programming part of PR and JB

 

[JMO8778]

..in her state of mind at the time,I think Patsy probably thought her 'ransom note' was the most fabulous piece of work ever written.I mean superb ! She didn't even bother to correct her mistakes..she just crossed them out.She didn't need to,because in her mind,it was the most ingenious story she'd ever came up with! The mistakes were totally unimportant,since she thought it was such a great piece of work.
Later,perhaps weeks to months later..I imagine she must have thought..."WTH was I thinking???? Why did I write all that nonsense??!! ...OMG!!!"

::slapping forehead ::

 

[JMO8778]

I know , sadly, My own Mother died of it...She had no remission though..

In regards to the letter I couldnt agree more , it is absolutely ridiculous, - I will hunt down the link and post it here from what I read about it..

Has any one read this page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/jonbenet.html

I was reading through going to so many of those things, I didn't know a lot of those ...

ETA I found one link to the letter re the suicide http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/06252006_11_suicide.shtml

ETA@

Good Grief is this true ? http://www.stewwebb.com/jonbenet_ramsey_murder_investigator_speaks_out.htm



And the rest of it ? although I have read about the GB stuff so not asking about that - just the programming part of PR and JB

I believe the first link,Ruthee's site,has accurate info,and although some of it was her own opinion,I think she was very close to the truth.She passed away several yrs ago though,that's why there are no more updates from her.
I have never heard of a suicide claim from Patsy..I'm not sure that's true at all.
The other link is one of those far-out conspiracy theory pages..just too far out there to be true,IMO.although I would question if the part about child *advertiser censored* found on computers might be true...we know there was a search warrant for JR's computers,the results of which were never released publicly.(in his book and says they found none.but without access to the evidence, we don't know for sure if this is true or not).

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah Superdave it did , sadly..........

So i've been reading, but haven't seen it yet, what is the concensus as to why PR may have *accidentlly* killed JBR ? and how ? as in struck her ? for not doing something properly?

I don't know if there is a consensus. My personal belief is that JB let a devastating secret slip and PR wanted to "shut her lying mouth."

I have read the Autopsy reports previously but what came first ? the strangulation of the skull fracture ? and does anyone know what those *rust colored* marks were on her ?

The general agreement is that the head blow came first by a substantial margin. Anywhere from ten minutes to an hour.

Those rust-colored marks may have been left by clothing snaps. In 2002, Werner Spitz went public on his findings on the marks, saying that they were most likely caused by a snap on an article of clothing. When he says a snap, he means those little metal buttons.
Perhaps Patsy Ramsey herself can shed some light on the subject:

TOM HANEY: Okay. Anything else on the bed?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks like a little -- the little pot holder square she was making. This multicolored thing here. This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh, that's sort of looks like it might be the little velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

It seems so morbid to be so intrigued by this little girls case but for me I would just one day like to know what happened to her and WHY...I just can not imagine how horrible it must have been for her especially if it was her mother that did this...

The most horrific scenario I can think of.

PS I meant to say That the ransom note was the most laughable piece of crap I've ever read..how anyone was expected to believe that was from a *real* kidnapper is a JOKE

It's not me you have to tell that to.

That ransom not was definitely a staging....Its just ridiculous ! no one writes like that LOL

No one I know, certainly.

ETA : Gosh I just read somewhere else on line about the Policeman's theory on why the mother did it - ie JBR wet the bed and the drama ensued from there...That is very plausible, some parents have no patience with things like that and you do hear a lot how parents get angry at children that wet the bed and so on...

It's the number one cause of child abuse.

I also saw a photo of PR at JBR Grave, where she has her hands up near her throat - almost symbolic of omg how could I have done this to you - my first thought on seeing that photo was how the hands were symbolic of choking..

That picture is Patsy at her best (or worst, depending on how you look at it).

 

[BBB167893]

Hi yes Ive just spent some time reading a few different places..and I read all of that - it definitely seems to be the most plausible...
And then there is the whole situation with the brother burke...and how he was supposedly asleep, but that the phone wasnt placed down properly and they continued to hear after having it magnified ( the taped conversation to 911) the mother saying Help me Jesus Help me and Burke saying "but what did you find" when he was supposed to be asleep.....

That's why so many of us smell the distinctive odor of pants burning.

But can I ask if someone like CA Can be indited for murder when there is no body, how do people like the mother and father of JBR get away with it when there is a lot more evidence pointing to them...?
I will never understand the justice system anywhere!

Not only can you ask that, but I'm MORE than happy to tell you why! There are a lot of reasons: one, the prosecutors in Boulder have a much different mentality than the prosecutors anywhere else. Two, Casey doesn't have a senile old believer (check those letters carefully!) she could con. Three, she doesn't have million-dollar lawyers who own half the state. She fits the classic "white-trash" image.

But those reasons are small and quickly-eaten potatoes compared to Numero Uno: the Rs never went to prison because no one could ever prove conclusively which one of them was the actual killer and which one was the accomplice. It is against the canons of legal ethics to go into a courtroom and say "ladies and gentlemen of the jury, one of these defendants killed their little girl and the other, for whatever reason, decided to help them cover it up. We'll let you make up your own minds as to which one did what." No, sir. No, ma'am. Cannot do it. It's a simple legal fact, which everyone from Alex Hunter to Wendy Murphy to Vincent Bugliosi agrees on: you can't charge two people with the same crime. You have to charge one with the killing and one with the cover-up. As Bugliosi himself said, quote:
"If we come to the conclusion that JonBenet was not murdered by an intruder, the inevitable question presents itself: which parent did it? A prosecutor can't argue to a jury, 'Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is very clear here that either Mr. or Mrs. Ramsey committed this murder and the other one covered it up...' There is no case to take to the jury unless the DA could prove beyond a reasonable doubt which one of them did it." Bugliosi also echoed Pete Hofstrom by saying, "Even if you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, that doesn't mean she committed the murder."

In her book, And Justice For Some, Murphy calls this the "cross-finger pointing defense." She elaborates by saying, quote:
"If police believe John killed JonBenet, Patsy's seeming involvement in aspects of the crime would frustrate prosecution efforts because of the very real risk that John could prevail at trial by pointing the finger at Patsy.
"Even if the prosecutors felt confident about the evidence, they had to worry about what jurors would think--and as an ethical matter, they couldn't proceed unless they believed they could persuade a jury about one parent's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

Get the picture?

The ransom note was not written by a kidnapper - its a joke and written by someone in a highly delirious state of be it alcohol, drugs or emotion, they were off their rocker when they wrote it

And we just happen to know someone who took a lot of drugs in that household.

...kidnappers usually write short and to the point letters of demand and give away as little as possible, they don't usually keep repeating themselves over and over again, and why give so much in the way of *lettering* to be analyzed...no the ransom LETTER ! (hardly a note lol) was definitely a dead giveaway for not being a kidnap gone wrong, but rather a elaborate hoax as to look like one....

The obvious is usually right.

You know, they say that cancer is caused by a stressor...We all the gene in us but that something triggers it to go *bad* and high stress can be such a trigger...I find it interesting that on one hand she was *free* from cancer but then died after JBR's death...did the guilt eat her alive with cancer to her death?

Sometimes I think that's the deal.

And then on the other hand I find it very odd about the supposed letter she had sent to the lawyers for after her death as in PR's death, saying for it to be opened only after her death, and stating that JBR had in fact committed suicide (yeah ok right because she put on 5 pounds !) and stating to her dead daughter " i'll be with you soon"

Either I'm confused or you are. The only thing I know about that was that Patsy said in an interview that she'd be with JB soon.

Wondering also whether she killed her because she didnt want her to live if she was going to die and she knew the cancer was back (thought it was back) ?

I have often wondered that myself.

So many unanswered questions and the trouble with PR Dying is that we will never know what was in her head .

Yes, I think the case died with her.

 

[BBB167893]

I know , sadly, My own Mother died of it...She had no remission though..

I lost both parents to cancer. You have my good wishes.

In regards to the letter I couldnt agree more , it is absolutely ridiculous, - I will hunt down the link and post it here from what I read about it..

Has any one read this page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/jonbenet.html

I was reading through going to so many of those things, I didn't know a lot of those ...

Ruthee's site is an inspiration to many.

ETA I found one link to the letter re the suicide http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/06252006_11_suicide.shtml

ETA@

Having read it, I'm pretty sure it's a joke website, and not a very funny one.

Good Grief is this true ? http://www.stewwebb.com/jonbenet_ramsey_murder_investigator_speaks_out.htm

Parts of it are true. But for the most part, it seems like ravings.

 

[SeekingJana]

Jane, you wrote above that you wondered about aspects of the " accidental murder".

I don't know if I am in the minority in my belief, but I do not think JonBenet's murder was accidental. I have reason to believe it was planned for a few months, probably when the suspicions of incest in the form of a male sexually fondling JonBenet, first entered Patsy's mind.

Several things point to a kidnapping hoax ( body removed from the home and dumped) being planned to cover up a parental murder by Patsy, plus IMO, there are other signs that things were NOT RIGHT in the Ramsey household concerning JonBenet.

I think the pre-Christmas gift choices for JonBenet, chosen by Patsy, even if given to JBR by other family members, are extremely odd for a 6 year old.
1) JBR received a doll for Christmas which was ordered specifically to look just like her. Patsy said later it looked like JBR in her coffin. JonBenet didn't like the doll.
Purpose of the doll: To immortalize Patsy's little beauty queen after her death. A perfect little doll.

2) The ID bracelet she received for Christmas. Kids didn't ask for this type of jewelry in the late 90's. But she got one. Want to know why? So her body could be more easily identified after it was disposed of. I believe this was a preparation to the murder.

3) Likewise, the cross pendant she got for Christmas that year. A symbol of eternal life for Christians. I am a Christian and never gave my children crosses as jewelry, and wouldn't have thought they would like it at the age of 6!! 10, 11 years old or so, maybe.

Things happened which we know a bit about, but not all.
For example, the frequent trips in the late fall to the pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, for treatment of " vaginitis". Patsy knew something was wrong, and JBR had probably told her as best as she could, because they were learning about " bad touches" and " good touches" in her kindergarten class.

The fact that JonBenet's medical records were said to be " stolen". There was also a conflicting report that Dr. Beuf put her records in his bank deposit box. Who knows? Something wasn't right about it all. I think he saw evidence of abuse or neglect or both and failed to report it. As did her school, apparently.

JBR took on an air of being unkempt. Her kindergarten nurse said she was often dirty, underfed, hair not brushed in the AM when she arrived at school. I don't believe it started out this way. I believe she was shunned by her mother for a month or so before she died. The autopsy report speaks of a child's fingernails which had days' worth of crud underneath them. This means she was NOT bathed nor were her hands washed.
She was dressed up and paraded around when she was performing in Patsy's steps as a little beauty queen, but her private life was no picnic. Bleached hair, contact lens, reports of the " flipper" teeth, hair extensions, wearing DIAPERS to the pageants because of toileting regression ( a primary sign of sexual abuse in her age group).
She didn't have her mother's help in the bathrooms at public places and would ask strangers to clean her little bottom. That's pathetic.

Then there are the mysterious and strange things which happened in the Ramsey home in December.
1) The party on the 23rd.. the 911 hang up call, Susan Stine's response when police showed up. JonBenet apparently saying she wasn't pretty. Reports that she cried that night.
2) Don Paugh, her grandfather, flying out of Boulder on Christmas Eve evening for Roswell, GA. Not a regular planned flight but a STANDBY FLIGHT. Who flies standby on Chrstmas Eve????
3) All of the calls and plans to John Achalutta ( ?sp), the Ramsey's private pilot. What was going on? There was a flurry of activity planned, but we do not know if anyone was flown out or in to the Ramsey house.
4) The fact that the Ramseys were going to Michigan, then to Disney World. The journey was to start the next day, the AM of the 26th, where JBR would compete in a well-known pageant, but their plans were sketchy at best. Little to no packing was done. Patsy said that she threw their clothes in black garbage bags.. WHY?
We know they owned luggage. What happened that she didn't have time to pack before Christmas Day??
She said the plastic garbage bags were used to save space in the plane. That's BS. First of all, the space allotted doesn't change. Garbage bags full of clothes? Did she think there was a dry cleaner's open in MI during their hurried meeting with Melinda and John Andrew? Why even go to MI in the first place? Melinda and John Andrew were in GA. So were the rest of their families.
Secondly, there is an absolute weight limit on what can be put into a small private plane. Patsy could not simply stuff clothing into bags and have someone haul them all on the airplane. The baggage had to be weighed. The pilot had to calculate his weight load and distribution.
5) Lastly, the conflicting things Patsy said in DOI about JonBenet at the time on Christmas Day. First, she could not play with her little friends because " She had a cold". She was " in her bedroom in bed".
But, later on that same day, we know that she dressed up and was taken to the White's house, where it is reported that she played with her friend Daphne that evening and ate her last full meal. ( the pineapple being the last food she consumed, contrary to what Patsy said).

I fully believe that the murder was planned by one parent for a period of weeks to perhaps months. Patsy was the tail that wagged the dog in that family. I think John was clueless until well after the fact, probably when he got separate lawyers for the two of them and was able to put 2 and 2 together.

JMO,
Maria