GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

[Kamille]

Odd how it all adds up to the same 15,000 isn't it?

JMO

Yes... but why does he try to explain away another $15,000? :waitasec:

 

[Cottages]

Isn't it true that premeditation can occur literally within minutes before the actual deed? If, in his eyes, she did something that ticked him off and because of it, he decided to kill her, isn't that still premeditation?

Yes. Premeditation or Malice Aforethought can be developed in seconds (i.e., minutes are not required, only thinking about it before doing it). Laying in wait, is however, a different ballgame, but of course, also [very] premeditated.

 

[Cottages]

Some people have thought that possibly the FBI froze that account immediately, the one where the 15,000 was wired to. I have no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't that be common practice by FBI? So as not to lose all the money?

The FBI does not have the power to freeze anyone's bank account, let alone one in a foreign country. Freezing a bank account takes judicial power, and even if the FBI had a court order, an American court order is no good in the Netherlands. We are different sovereigns.

Even states here in the US are different sovereigns (that's why states have to extradite criminals when they flee to another state). Feds can get you in any state, but not in any country.

For the same reason, the FBI could not arrest Joran on the spot for extortion (i.e, the FBI has NO police power in another country). Even a person in the FBI office didn't get this quite right when asked for an explanation as to why he wasn't arrested sooner. The FBI has no power to arrest in Aruba any more than Peru had a right to arrest JVS in Chile.

 

[marikesh]

But up until the moment he killed Stephany the FBI was supposedly trying to gather more evidence in order to build their case. That's what they said in answer to why they didn't act sooner, IIRC. If they froze the money, it would have tipped him off so I'm thinking they wouldn't do that. Just a guess, though.



Isn't it true that premeditation can occur literally within minutes before the actual deed? If, in his eyes, she did something that ticked him off and because of it, he decided to kill her, isn't that still premeditation?

BBM
That sounds plausible, yes.
2nd paragraph:
After his initial ferocious attack he saw she still breathed and smothered her to make sure she was dead...sounds like premeditation, yes.

 

[marikesh]

I also noticed in this recent translation that she was no longer actually "planning" to have Joran sent to a facility but was rather only "thinking" about it. I guess she couldn't come up with any proof of anyone in the mental health field that she had discussed this with?

I'm wondering now why we needed a translation from Spanish when Anita gave her interview in Dutch and English. Initially what we saw wasn't the whole of the interview as I noted from other Dutch posters elsewhere. So was the whole of it translated to Spanish and then to English? I'm just wondering if meanings were lost and added that way?
Was there a full Dutch/English translation here and I missed it?

 

[marikesh]

I'm wondering now why we needed a translation from Spanish when Anita gave her interview in Dutch and English. Initially what we saw wasn't the whole of the interview as I noted from other Dutch posters elsewhere. So was the whole of it translated to Spanish and then to English? I'm just wondering if meanings were lost and added that way?
Was there a full Dutch/English translation here and I missed it?

To add: (because I believe in honesty)

The original Dutch/English translation does not imply in any way that Anita had no intention, or dropped the intention of sending Joran for psychiatric examination. She apparently was still trying but when the person is already over 18, it's pretty difficult unless he was willing. He wasn't; he ran with his money for gambling.

Also where people find that she admits she now believes Joran murdered both Natalee and Stepheny that seems to be another problem with the Dutch/Spanish/English translation. This is what the Dutch/English translation ssid:

and I hope you feel it good for a while, everything you have done, and not only for these people who have lost their children, but also for the rest of your family, who now also sort of are getting the victims of his ridiculous behaviour.

 

[georger]

I tend to agree with you on this jwarner regarding the timing of this event. I don't think Joran was particularily aware of the date in regards to the anniversary of the disappearance of NH. He likely knew it was close but I don't think he put it together. In fact, as I inquired in my above post, he may have been off a day in the actual dates when he made his confession. He's been through 3 other anniversary dates without "snapping" that we're aware of. But on this particular anniversary, he happened to have a young woman in his hotel room, for whatever reason, who likely didn't think much of him after she learned of who he was and wanted to leave and get away from him. I can see this making him snap, especially if he was planning to use this new friendship to his advantage.

MOO

I wonder if we will ever know if the 'Mongoloid' email is real.
Whoever sent that email (if it is real) was keeping track of time & more.

 

[georger]

Although I can't cite it because it comes from another forum, I can't dismiss the reports that she sent messages of good wishes for his future to him via facebook AFTER he left for Peru. That doesn't sound like a mother that's very concerned about her son's severe psychiatric condition.

Ooooo! :dance: Very insightful, imo. :woohoo:

 

[georger]

Van der Sloot Update: Where is Stephany Flores' Missing $11,000?

NEW YORK (CBS) Police sources in Peru have disclosed to CBS News that Stephany Flores, Joran van der Sloot's alleged Peruvian murder victim, had won approximately $10,000 at casinos in the week leading up to her death and also had been given $1,000 from her father to purchase a laptop that she never got a chance to buy.

But police sources say that this money has never been found.

Flores reportedly kept her money in the glove compartment of her car. Police documents dated June 3 obtained by CBS News show the results of the search of Stephany Flores' car: no money was found in it.

Did Joran van der Sloot take that money?

The sources say that this was the true motive for the brutal murder of Flores: van der Sloot was after her money. Police say this means that van der Sloot's alleged murder of Flores was premeditated.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20010376-504083.html

excellent find! you are on a roll tonight... :dance:

 

[georger]

Thanks for the update! This is the first we've heard about money locked in her glove compartment, although I believe we figured, if she had a lot of money, it had to be in her car since she carried such a tiny wallet.

Somewhere weeks ago, I recall hearing/reading that her car was unlocked when found by LE in a 'bad' Lima neighborhood. I've searched and can't find a link anywhere, so it may be on the series of videos with her father. If it was in fact unlocked, then it seems anyone could have gotten the glove compartment opened in the day or so that the car stood abandoned.

And....I'm not even going to get into the issue of $10,000 vs 10,000 soles (approx $3400)....we kind of beat that to a pulp several weeks ago.... and it actually doesn't matter, since it's still a significant amount of money that's gone missing.

MOO

Im going out on a limb here: The link says only she had won $10,000 ...
(shekels or whatever, not important). No proof she placed it in her glovebox.
She could have placed it in her bank account? Because, we do know for a
fact Joran used her atm card and tried to access her bank account after the
murder, and failed. (her only bank account?) So obviously Joran thought she
had money in a bank account ? Joran had Stephanie and money associated
in his mind . Those seem safe assumptions. ? :waitasec:

 

[georger]

As unlikely as this may seem to some, I find it infinitely more plausible than the date being just happenstance. (Odds 1825:1) While I do think it's highly unlikely he planned to kill her, I wouldn't put it past him either.

To me this is an important point in assessing his life (psychology).
Things just have a way of 'getting out of hand on the spur of the
moment' for Joran .... over and over again. This seems to be a basic
part of his psychology given the life-strategy he has been living for
years. No real planning. No real work. No normal life track or normal
ambitions, just trusting luck with an over-estimation of his personal
skills and talents .......... then boom! Everything goes haywire. Now
murder clear and plain ... if not two! He only planned to kill her if he
is an actual psychopath. :waitasec:

 

[hollyblue]

Yes. Premeditation or Malice Aforethought can be developed in seconds (i.e., minutes are not required, only thinking about it before doing it). Laying in wait, is however, a different ballgame, but of course, also [very] premeditated.

If you go by his confession, Joran had two opportunities for premeditation. The first was just after he apparently elbowed SF in the face and she was bleeding. He decided to strangle her because he feared her calling the police. He then claimed to throw her on the floor but she was still breathing so he smothered her. I'd say these two actions alone would indicate premeditation that he intended to ensure that she was no longer alive, a premeditated action IMO.

MOO

Cottages, so in his confession, as Kamille has stated.....this would definitely be premeditated? TIA

 

[hollyblue]

Van der Sloot Update: Where is Stephany Flores' Missing $11,000?

NEW YORK (CBS) Police sources in Peru have disclosed to CBS News that Stephany Flores, Joran van der Sloot's alleged Peruvian murder victim, had won approximately $10,000 at casinos in the week leading up to her death and also had been given $1,000 from her father to purchase a laptop that she never got a chance to buy.

But police sources say that this money has never been found.

Flores reportedly kept her money in the glove compartment of her car. Police documents dated June 3 obtained by CBS News show the results of the search of Stephany Flores' car: no money was found in it.

Did Joran van der Sloot take that money?

The sources say that this was the true motive for the brutal murder of Flores: van der Sloot was after her money. Police say this means that van der Sloot's alleged murder of Flores was premeditated.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20010376-504083.html

This whole money thing is twisted somehow. Follow the money........but there are a few money trails to try to follow here :waitasec:

1. BBM I think this is Peru's way of showing JVS the hole he is digging for himself---going against "the system" and being defiant. They are showing they can play his game too, although I don't see how they can prove he actually stole this amount from her. ? As far as the money in the glove box (who would do this?)being taken by a detective/LE-----I don't think JVS would have left that car and not taken everything that he felt would be a benefit to him and wouldn't have missed one spot, if indeed it was there. IMO

2. Why were they asking him about all this money or why would JVS have to tell about the money? Did they find his bank book or papers or info somewhere re: this, because he apparently didn't have it on him? Did he?

3. I know dip about gambling, so I need to ask for thoughts..How much do you think (cash) JVS had with him when he took off from Aruba? The whole $25,000, more or less? He had to have money left after the taxi cab adventure to pay for his keep somewhere and if he played at any casinos after arriving in Chile. Being smart he wouldn't have wanted to tell them how much he had and wanted to save his cash. (But if he was trying to get away why would he spending time in a casino?? In hopes of more winnings.. didn't care...thought he was safe and didn't plan on going to the Embassy or back to Aruba?) But it's JVS....so who knows.

4. I do think she did front him money and was going to the room to collect and he was planning on "getting money somehow" from her. I, previously, had thought that someone may have sent him a message saying something to the effect of: We have you now, your where we can get you for the extortion or that his account has been frozen---- and mentioning the anniversary of NH just as a big "Gottcha", but Cottages has said that they wouldn't have had the rights to do that.....unless the Netherlands did and time permitted? Two weeks had gone by so I'm still wondering if this could have happened? Could be the reason he told his mother he had been robbed and needed money...she didn't know of the extortion. But any message like that would have seized his brain, I'm sure, and certainly would have flashed a big red warning to SF and his rage began; knowing he was "had" and his attempt to smooth talk SF into more funds trashed. He would have been a volcano.

5. The money is really perplexing and I don't think we are being told everything. He was telling LE that the monies could be accounted for. I still feel EG or Mr. Green Shirt (same?) know more too. I'm chomping at the bits to know what they said to LE!!!! Just my "inkling".

6. AVDS--I'm more convinced than ever she and JVS are two peas in a pod in their calculating, scrupulous way of marketing anything and anybody for their own means. I even believe he may be telling her to "use" him as a way to profit. It's outlandish, but I think with everything else I've seen in this family I wouldn't put it past them. You made a very good point Suzihawk with her bar scene and more unfortunately, I don't think the word humble existed in this family's vocabulary.

Thank you to others whose posts I have bounced off of in the discussion of the money and Anita:

Kamille, Marikesh, FLNY, Lola, Cottages, J Warner and Pink Panther.

Sorry post is so long, but this money is the center of it all and it pulled him down. Finally.

 

[suzihawk]

Will van der Sloot Ever See The Inside Of An Alabama Courtroom?

Birmingham, AL (WIAT)- As Joran van der Sloot sits in a Peruvian prison awaiting trial for murder, some wonder if he'll ever set foot in an American federal courtroom to face extortion charges.

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localn...-The-Inside-Of-An/-Q8hozRImEKXypyk5RYQUw.cspx

 

[marikesh]

Will van der Sloot Ever See The Inside Of An Alabama Courtroom?

Birmingham, AL (WIAT)- As Joran van der Sloot sits in a Peruvian prison awaiting trial for murder, some wonder if he'll ever set foot in an American federal courtroom to face extortion charges.

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localn...-The-Inside-Of-An/-Q8hozRImEKXypyk5RYQUw.cspx

He should be happy finally since everyone wants a piece of him, lol.

 

[corq]

Your list is fascinating! I'm intrigued by his gambling and how JVS mimics the "last great international playboy" high risk behavior that you mention:

3. I know dip about gambling, so I need to ask for thoughts..How much do you think (cash) JVS had with him when he took off from Aruba? The whole $25,000, more or less? He had to have money left after the taxi cab adventure to pay for his keep somewhere and if he played at any casinos after arriving in Chile. Being smart he wouldn't have wanted to tell them how much he had and wanted to save his cash. (But if he was trying to get away why would he spending time in a casino?? In hopes of more winnings.. didn't care...thought he was safe and didn't plan on going to the Embassy or back to Aruba?) But it's JVS....so who knows.

With all JVS' pathological issues, the simplest explanation might easily that gambling addiction might be the core pathology here. (JMO)

Think: casino gambling, gambling with the law, etc. The pathological thrill of high risk. Gambling addicts will tell you its a drug, and most addicts know that you eventually need more and more drugs to get the high; for JVS, that drug is "high risk".

JVS escalates it to an epic proportion of course, but that's what addiction and (opportunity) provided. The risk in the killing in Aruba, the risk in hiding evidence, the risk in flouting the law, then then rush that first came with seemingly getting away with it in Aruba. The 'getting away with it,' in itself, probably escalated his need to proverbially 'raise the stakes', in a new place. To me this is JVS' deliberate gambling/risk/thrill pathology.

Again, just how I see things from what I've read.

 

[nervous_nellie]

As unlikely as this may seem to some, I find it infinitely more plausible than the date being just happenstance. (Odds 1825:1) While I do think it's highly unlikely he planned to kill her, I wouldn't put it past him either.

To me this is an important point in assessing his life (psychology).
Things just have a way of 'getting out of hand on the spur of the
moment' for Joran .... over and over again. This seems to be a basic
part of his psychology given the life-strategy he has been living for
years. No real planning. No real work. No normal life track or normal
ambitions, just trusting luck with an over-estimation of his personal
skills and talents .......... then boom! Everything goes haywire. Now
murder clear and plain ... if not two! He only planned to kill her if he
is an actual psychopath. :waitasec:[/quote]

i think that the statement that jvds made that when he realized that sf was still breathing that he made the DECISION to suffocate her with his shirt. imo thats a plan. i dont think he planned weeks or even days ahead tho...

 

[suzihawk]

Welcome, corq! :seeya:

 

[Cottages]

The money is really perplexing and I don't think we are being told everything. He was telling LE that the monies could be accounted for. I still feel EG or Mr. Green Shirt (same?) know more too. I'm chomping at the bits to know what they said to LE!!!! Just my "inkling".

I agree that there are probably some things regarding the money that has not been released. A smart prosecution team would absolutely not reveal all they know. In fact, they would reveal *only enough* to stave off any accusations that they were being biased towards a foreigner.

Prosecutors here in the U.S. certainly would have reviewed all of the casino tapes to ascertain how much SF and JVS had won AND lost in the preceding days as well as deposits/withdraws in SF accounts.

And I agree that JVS was probably attempting to account for ill-gotten money from SF. Since he left his credit cards in a Chile hotel, either he forgot them or planned to return to that hotel room? Makes me wonder if he buried money around that hotel...or hid it in the box spring...pure speculation, but with JVS, nothing would seem far-fetched (well, except that he was set-up, that's more than far-fetched).

AVDS--I'm more convinced than ever she and JVS are two peas in a pod in their calculating, scrupulous way of marketing anything and anybody for their own means. ...I don't think the word humble existed in this family's vocabulary.

Peas don't fall too far from the pea tree unless one makes a *conscious* effort not be be like a parent. I have literally never seen otherwise. The default is to be quite similar, which means it's more likely than not that AVS was very controlling and physically confronting to her young children since JVS has those "qualities" And I say AVS rather than PVS because I don't think PVS had it in him. He seemed more meek & withdrawn than AVS. Taco Pina said PVS was a "simpleton," which is not contrary to the fact that he couldn't muster judge's training.

 

[Cottages]

Cottages, so in his confession, as Kamille has stated.....this would definitely be premeditated? TIA

In the U.S., under all state statutes AND under the old common law, it is most definitely premeditated murder. Not just based on his confession (we can shred that doc, remember), but based on the forensic evidence. Premeditation can be inferred from the facts. If premeditation could not be inferred, no one would ever be convicted of it because they would never admit to having the thought to do it beforehand.

*If* her only injury had been an elbow to her nose, perhaps here in the states he would be convicted of a "lesser" offense than premeditated or felony murder - maybe even involuntary manslaughter would be offered if he had no other violent history & he just hit her once and that caused her death.

In my opinion, he will most definitely be convicted, and he won't get less than 20 yrs....will probably get 25-35, no matter what the arguments/defenses/additional facts are. And if he survives, he will come to the U.S. to face extortion here, unless he knows, and says, where NH's remains are in the meantime. I think that's the only way he'll get out of the extortion charges (and that may have well been the intent of following through with giving him the extortion money...to then have something that would *compel* him to either shut up or put up).