JMO8778
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....bs
Poll: If an R confessed, would you accept it?
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Holdontoyourhat
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OK, how about an intruder put on PR's jacket, impersonating her, picked up JBR and dropped a piece of pineapple in her mouth and moved her to the basement silently?
No matter what, you'll be needing a working intruder theory though. DNA, linguistic, and handwriting evidence says thats exactly what happened
News flash: PR was NOT a handwriting match.
Another news flash: DNA is in CODIS tagged to JBR homicide.
What happened to all those RDI-favored tab headlines?? Now those are ...bs.
madeleine
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If she was strangled in her bedroom.....when was the piece of paint brush attached to the ligature,later?And why?
madeleine
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyljNfQUu5A&feature=related"]YouTube - Looney Tunes Intro/Outro[/ame]
Sophie
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OK, HOTYH, I'll bite.
1. You can't ask what happened to the RDI tab stories without admitting that there have been almost no JBR tab stories at all. The new DA handing the case to the BPD, a multi-agency task force being set up, the emphasis on the fact that EVERY possibility was being considered notwithstanding Mary Lacy's 'reckless exoneration' and Beckner talking about advances in linguistics possibly being key didn't even get significant coverage.
What happened to the JBR story is that it got displaced by Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, the Obamas, Brangelina (still!), Michael Jackson.
2. Patsy died and the sightings of her which would inevitably be accompanied by speculation died with her. From the tabloid point of view, a lot of the glam of this story has gone.
3. This new investigation is operating with some discretion so there are no leaks.
4. Lin Wood talking up the job he has done for the Ramseys has unquestionably stifled some of the debate.
That's pretty much standard media operation, HOTYH, and if you are using it to bolster your IDI conviction, then I'm afraid you are being naive.
1. You can't ask what happened to the RDI tab stories without admitting that there have been almost no JBR tab stories at all. The new DA handing the case to the BPD, a multi-agency task force being set up, the emphasis on the fact that EVERY possibility was being considered notwithstanding Mary Lacy's 'reckless exoneration' and Beckner talking about advances in linguistics possibly being key didn't even get significant coverage.
What happened to the JBR story is that it got displaced by Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, the Obamas, Brangelina (still!), Michael Jackson.
2. Patsy died and the sightings of her which would inevitably be accompanied by speculation died with her. From the tabloid point of view, a lot of the glam of this story has gone.
3. This new investigation is operating with some discretion so there are no leaks.
4. Lin Wood talking up the job he has done for the Ramseys has unquestionably stifled some of the debate.
That's pretty much standard media operation, HOTYH, and if you are using it to bolster your IDI conviction, then I'm afraid you are being naive.
Sophie
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Sophie
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Two combat-trained adult intruders armed with ligatures, tape, and stungun would have no problem moving JBR against her will to the basement without disturbing others sleeping one floor up. There is evidence that this took place. Fiber consistent with the ligature was found in her bed. JBR was found with a deep furrow around her neck from the ligature. There is positive evidence that this ligature was applied while she was alive. This is known crime scene evidence that stands in direct opposition to the whole RDI staging theory. The extra loops in the 2nd ligature are unexplained by RDI. The multi-looped 2nd ligature could've been a redundant system that was not required, and thus no marks were found of resistance against them.
A pair of uniform marks were found on JBR that are unexplained by RDI. The DNA of an unknown male found in multple places on clothing JBR was wearing is unexplained by RDI.
Intruders in the house would need to contend with the possibility of a parent wandering around looking for JBR missing from her bed. The placement of the ransom note on the rear stairway, and the length of the note, are evidence of this. The ransom note on the rear stairs could've been part of a tripwire system that would alert a single intruder in the kitchen who was busy watching the front stairs.
It's hard to know where to start with this. In fact, I am starting to doubt my own sanity in addressing it. However, here goes:
1. Two combat-trained adults took JBR against her will despite her parents being only one floor up in a room that actually didn't have a door and Burke being on the same floor. One of these combat-trained guys, though, put on Patsy's jacket either to incriminate Patsy (why bother: you're murdering the child in her own home so parents will be first suspects without your help) or to make a sleepy JBR think he was Patsy (ok, so this combat-trained guy can fit into women's clothing) but why bother if you are going to start the attack in the bedroom anyway?
2. At some point, they break off from this to feed JBR pineapple.
3. No one doubts that she was still alive when the ligature was applied. It's a fact of the case. There's more than the deep furrow pointing to her being alive when the ligature was applied - see the other signs of asphixiation mentioned in the autopsy report. You can't asphixiate an already dead body. What RDI contend,is that she may very well have been unconscious when she was asphixiated. The lack of bitings on the cheek and tongue, lack of damage to the internal structures of the neck and lack of the first sign of a struggle support this. In fact, I can't believe you are suggesting that RDI even refute this. We query the over-kill and wonder, along with some experts, whether the ligature wasn't used to try to cover something else - like JBR having been lifted by her shirt. Similarly, the duct tape points to JBR being already dead when it was applied. Why?
4. There are no markings on JBR's body from having been tied at the hands or wrists or of struggling against restraints. The wrist tie wasn't fit for the purpose of subduing her. It's that simple. I'd query whether combat-trained men would have produced a structure with redundancies etc (or the other superfluities of this case).
5. IDI can't explain the uniform marks either but since they were described as contusions not burns, it's pretty clear from the autopsy that they weren't stun gun marks. And in fact, IDI shouldn't want them to be stun gun marks since it all adds to the heap of improbabilties - clout her, asphixiate her, put useless restraints on her, put duct tape on her after she's dead. But don't be impolite: give her some pineapple, too.
Actually, I have always found the potholder next to JBR's bed a likely source of those contusions. Certainly the graphics that are available on the Internet make compelling viewing...
6. The contusion on her cheek has been magnified by all sorts of people and its source seems pretty clear. There are threads on here or else go over to FFJ and check out Father Brown's avatar.
7. You are right: intruders had to be aware that a parent might come looking for JBR. This, though, is why they would have been more efficient and certainly faster. It's not why they would leave a ransom note on the stairs. A mom bawling, 'JonnieB, where are you hun? would be a more effective tripwire. People moving about upstairs is pretty audible in the dead of night anyway. But what good would an accomplice in the kitchen be to people operating in the wine cellar? Owl calls? And how would they all make their egress?
8. I can easily explain unknown male DNA on JBR. If IDI were being honest, so could they. What neither RDI or IDI know is whether this belongs to the killer or whether, if does belong to the killer, the Ramseys had knowledge before, during or after the fact of the killing.
Two combat-trained adult intruders armed with ligatures, tape, and stungun would have no problem moving JBR against her will to the basement without disturbing others sleeping one floor up. There is evidence that this took place. Fiber consistent with the ligature was found in her bed. JBR was found with a deep furrow around her neck from the ligature. There is positive evidence that this ligature was applied while she was alive. This is known crime scene evidence that stands in direct opposition to the whole RDI staging theory. The extra loops in the 2nd ligature are unexplained by RDI. The multi-looped 2nd ligature could've been a redundant system that was not required, and thus no marks were found of resistance against them.
A pair of uniform marks were found on JBR that are unexplained by RDI. The DNA of an unknown male found in multple places on clothing JBR was wearing is unexplained by RDI.
Intruders in the house would need to contend with the possibility of a parent wandering around looking for JBR missing from her bed. The placement of the ransom note on the rear stairway, and the length of the note, are evidence of this. The ransom note on the rear stairs could've been part of a tripwire system that would alert a single intruder in the kitchen who was busy watching the front stairs.
It's hard to know where to start with this. In fact, I am starting to doubt my own sanity in addressing it. However, here goes:
1. Two combat-trained adults took JBR against her will despite her parents being only one floor up in a room that actually didn't have a door and Burke being on the same floor. One of these combat-trained guys, though, put on Patsy's jacket either to incriminate Patsy (why bother: you're murdering the child in her own home so parents will be first suspects without your help) or to make a sleepy JBR think he was Patsy (ok, so this combat-trained guy can fit into women's clothing) but why bother if you are going to start the attack in the bedroom anyway?
2. At some point, they break off from this to feed JBR pineapple.
3. No one doubts that she was still alive when the ligature was applied. It's a fact of the case. There's more than the deep furrow pointing to her being alive when the ligature was applied - see the other signs of asphixiation mentioned in the autopsy report. You can't asphixiate an already dead body. What RDI contend,is that she may very well have been unconscious when she was asphixiated. The lack of bitings on the cheek and tongue, lack of damage to the internal structures of the neck and lack of the first sign of a struggle support this. In fact, I can't believe you are suggesting that RDI even refute this. We query the over-kill and wonder, along with some experts, whether the ligature wasn't used to try to cover something else - like JBR having been lifted by her shirt. Similarly, the duct tape points to JBR being already dead when it was applied. Why?
4. There are no markings on JBR's body from having been tied at the hands or wrists or of struggling against restraints. The wrist tie wasn't fit for the purpose of subduing her. It's that simple. I'd query whether combat-trained men would have produced a structure with redundancies etc (or the other superfluities of this case).
5. IDI can't explain the uniform marks either but since they were described as contusions not burns, it's pretty clear from the autopsy that they weren't stun gun marks. And in fact, IDI shouldn't want them to be stun gun marks since it all adds to the heap of improbabilties - clout her, asphixiate her, put useless restraints on her, put duct tape on her after she's dead. But don't be impolite: give her some pineapple, too.
Actually, I have always found the potholder next to JBR's bed a likely source of those contusions. Certainly the graphics that are available on the Internet make compelling viewing...
6. The contusion on her cheek has been magnified by all sorts of people and its source seems pretty clear. There are threads on here or else go over to FFJ and check out Father Brown's avatar.
7. You are right: intruders had to be aware that a parent might come looking for JBR. This, though, is why they would have been more efficient and certainly faster. It's not why they would leave a ransom note on the stairs. A mom bawling, 'JonnieB, where are you hun? would be a more effective tripwire. People moving about upstairs is pretty audible in the dead of night anyway. But what good would an accomplice in the kitchen be to people operating in the wine cellar? Owl calls? And how would they all make their egress?
8. I can easily explain unknown male DNA on JBR. If IDI were being honest, so could they. What neither RDI or IDI know is whether this belongs to the killer or whether, if does belong to the killer, the Ramseys had knowledge before, during or after the fact of the killing.
Holdontoyourhat
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Sophie,
Your depiction of the media's 'displacement' isn't valid. The last program I heard about and watched briefly was Smit and his Psychics. That was exclusively IDI. The last news I heard of was ML and the exhoneration, obviously IDI. RDI would need to produce a TV program and a news story that are both decidedly RDI in order to show media hasn't been swayed to the other side. What you're calling 'displacement' is really a change in the coverage and perception in the meda as to who killed JBR: an intruder.
After RDI 'gets over it' and the actual need for a working intruder theory is finally recognized, it won't be that hard to come up with a plausible one that includes the evidence. This would be a daunting or impossible task for a believer in RDI.
I'm sure the intruder assault started in the bedroom with two intruders, the cord and no jacket. Prima facie suggests two combat-trained adults did that, and if that is the case they could do that without waking the other occupants. Having been ridiculed by other posters for this idea, prima facie noticed that the RN, on the surface, appears to be p-o-l-i-t-i-c-a-l-l-y m-o-t-i-v-a-t-e-d and carried out by a f-o-r-e-i-g-n f-a-c-t-i-o-n..
You might be naive to believe that an intruder standing guard in the kitchen for the parents would turn tail and run to the basement shouting 'quick hide they're coming'.
BTW what else was in the kitchen besides the pineapple?
Your depiction of the media's 'displacement' isn't valid. The last program I heard about and watched briefly was Smit and his Psychics. That was exclusively IDI. The last news I heard of was ML and the exhoneration, obviously IDI. RDI would need to produce a TV program and a news story that are both decidedly RDI in order to show media hasn't been swayed to the other side. What you're calling 'displacement' is really a change in the coverage and perception in the meda as to who killed JBR: an intruder.
After RDI 'gets over it' and the actual need for a working intruder theory is finally recognized, it won't be that hard to come up with a plausible one that includes the evidence. This would be a daunting or impossible task for a believer in RDI.
I'm sure the intruder assault started in the bedroom with two intruders, the cord and no jacket. Prima facie suggests two combat-trained adults did that, and if that is the case they could do that without waking the other occupants. Having been ridiculed by other posters for this idea, prima facie noticed that the RN, on the surface, appears to be p-o-l-i-t-i-c-a-l-l-y m-o-t-i-v-a-t-e-d and carried out by a f-o-r-e-i-g-n f-a-c-t-i-o-n..
You might be naive to believe that an intruder standing guard in the kitchen for the parents would turn tail and run to the basement shouting 'quick hide they're coming'.
BTW what else was in the kitchen besides the pineapple?
NEITHER comparison is appreciated. I'll tell you what: instead of comparing me to them, maybe you OUGHT to start comparing the Rs to people like Marc Klaas, Brenda Van Dam or Erin Runnion, and ML to REAL prosecutors. It's night and day.
HOW?
Just a minute. I'm not claiming anything other than what that news blurb claimed. Did they screw it up? Maybe. Take it up with them, not me.
It was by this one!
Tell that to Werner Spitz and Norm Early.
OH, YEAH??? I have 200+ pages devoted to exactly that.
Holdontoyourhat
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OK
Let me get this straight. You're writing a RDI book and you've devoted 200 pages to IDI thought?
Sophie
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HOTYH, most RDI do have an alternative IDI theory but - on balance - find the RDI scenario far more persuasive.
I have a couple of IDI scenarios myself. In fact, one of them would embrace certain aspects of your scenario. I just don't believe that you need to go to such convoluted lengths to find a living and breathing suspect, based in Boulder that night. Frankly, you don't need to look for combat-trained foreigners who are socialist revolutionaries to find someone who fits the bill very well.
However, with almost any IDI scenario I can envisage, I am still seeing Ramsey involvement at some point.
In fairness, incredible crimes do happen, so one day I may be eating a pile of crow served up by you. I doubt it, though. A stressed family at the time of year when domestic violence escalates dramatically and a panicked attempt to cover up a terrible incident rather than face the fall-out remains to me the most reasonable answer to this crime.
I have a couple of IDI scenarios myself. In fact, one of them would embrace certain aspects of your scenario. I just don't believe that you need to go to such convoluted lengths to find a living and breathing suspect, based in Boulder that night. Frankly, you don't need to look for combat-trained foreigners who are socialist revolutionaries to find someone who fits the bill very well.
However, with almost any IDI scenario I can envisage, I am still seeing Ramsey involvement at some point.
In fairness, incredible crimes do happen, so one day I may be eating a pile of crow served up by you. I doubt it, though. A stressed family at the time of year when domestic violence escalates dramatically and a panicked attempt to cover up a terrible incident rather than face the fall-out remains to me the most reasonable answer to this crime.
Holdontoyourhat
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Imagining a socialist foreign faction that doesn't respect this country isn't convoluted, as you are attempting to lead us all to believe. Most socialists don't respect the U.S. very much. Some socialists have prepared for war with the U.S.
I'm surprised, what with Pan Am 103 and the bizarre irradiation murder, that you see the world as such a peaceful place, where only parents and neighborhood freaks would be considered as potential authors of a ransom note that is so politically charged.
I don't think you can see the politics in the note.
I'm surprised, what with Pan Am 103 and the bizarre irradiation murder, that you see the world as such a peaceful place, where only parents and neighborhood freaks would be considered as potential authors of a ransom note that is so politically charged.
I don't think you can see the politics in the note.
Sophie
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It's the definition of convoluted, HOTYH.
Revolutionary socialists do not respect any successful capitalist business or they aren't, by definition, revolutionary socialists.
Combat-trained individuals do not commit such absurdly unprofessional executions and take such a long time doing it while in someone else's home.
The language of the note is at least as redolent of someone working in computers as it is of someone with exposure to the armed services (although someone in the house had exposure to both) - 'Certain words in the ransom note such as "instruction" "monitor" "execution" "scanned" "electronic" and "device" are computer terms. At the time of JonBenet's death, John Ramsey was president of Access Graphics a computer distribution company' (see http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/)
I could go on all night with the convolutions.
Revolutionary socialists do not respect any successful capitalist business or they aren't, by definition, revolutionary socialists.
Combat-trained individuals do not commit such absurdly unprofessional executions and take such a long time doing it while in someone else's home.
The language of the note is at least as redolent of someone working in computers as it is of someone with exposure to the armed services (although someone in the house had exposure to both) - 'Certain words in the ransom note such as "instruction" "monitor" "execution" "scanned" "electronic" and "device" are computer terms. At the time of JonBenet's death, John Ramsey was president of Access Graphics a computer distribution company' (see http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/)
I could go on all night with the convolutions.
Holdontoyourhat
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OK, Its neat though the words you've omitted to make your point:
proper burial, Victory!, beheading, execution (in the context that it was used, not in the one YOU conjured up), 'in our possession', 'group of individuals', 'follow our instructions to the letter', countermeasures, tactics.
An FBI profiler already stated that the note was 'full of commanding phrases'. Maybe we should read the note more from the commanding/military standpoint, because if it was really intruders, then they must have used some for real tactics.
Sophie
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OK, HOTYH, let me explain my issues with your scenario (not IDI generally): it seems to revel in how impossible it is to solve the crime.
I tell you about the size of foreign DNA databases and how US LE will almost certainly be able to use these databases. You tell me that there still aren't that many people on the databases and that the perp's DNA may never get onto one of these systems and, besides, the perp is liable to come from a country which wouldn't co-operate with the US.
I tell you that modern European socialism is more compatible with the RN than revolutionary socialism in view of the RN writer's respect for a capitalist business. You dismiss this notion out of hand despite the fact that it would reduce the pool of suspects dramatically or would at least be a good starting point.
I tell you that the letter looks to be the work of a relatively bright anglophone who displays no signs of not being a native speaker. You disagree despite the dramatic reduction in suspects that the rn writer being a native anglophone would involve and the fact that most (if not all?) anglophone countries would certainly co-operate with US LE so you get another starting point.
I tell you that one of the dollar signs in the RN sort of looks to me like someone started writing a Sterling sign and changed it to dollars. This is based on my own experience of working in a bank and endlessly doing the same thing when noting US$ to GB£ transactions. You completely ignore me.
I was going to tell you about the postal strike here. Most of the strikers have been carrying 'Save our Pensions' placards but there were two or three guys holding aloft a red hammer and sickle flag. Just by way of pointing out that your SFF of revolutionary socialists could easily be in a country that you wouldn't associate with revolutionary socialism so maybe it's worth running the JBR DNA through databases of 'friendly' countries. But I have no doubt that you would ridicule that point.
In fact, all of these things are intended to help narrow your scenario so that it can be reasonably investigated or at least given a starting point. I do this despite thinking that you are barking up the wrong tree totally but with some respect to the thought you have obviously given the case and in fact to bolster your hopes about this case which we all find so periodically discouraging.
So your dismissal of the suggestions leads me one of two conclusions:
1) You don't actually want the case solved; and
2) You don't really believe your own theory.
No offence, HOTYH: it just seems that way from here.
And on that point, bonne nuit. x
I tell you about the size of foreign DNA databases and how US LE will almost certainly be able to use these databases. You tell me that there still aren't that many people on the databases and that the perp's DNA may never get onto one of these systems and, besides, the perp is liable to come from a country which wouldn't co-operate with the US.
I tell you that modern European socialism is more compatible with the RN than revolutionary socialism in view of the RN writer's respect for a capitalist business. You dismiss this notion out of hand despite the fact that it would reduce the pool of suspects dramatically or would at least be a good starting point.
I tell you that the letter looks to be the work of a relatively bright anglophone who displays no signs of not being a native speaker. You disagree despite the dramatic reduction in suspects that the rn writer being a native anglophone would involve and the fact that most (if not all?) anglophone countries would certainly co-operate with US LE so you get another starting point.
I tell you that one of the dollar signs in the RN sort of looks to me like someone started writing a Sterling sign and changed it to dollars. This is based on my own experience of working in a bank and endlessly doing the same thing when noting US$ to GB£ transactions. You completely ignore me.
I was going to tell you about the postal strike here. Most of the strikers have been carrying 'Save our Pensions' placards but there were two or three guys holding aloft a red hammer and sickle flag. Just by way of pointing out that your SFF of revolutionary socialists could easily be in a country that you wouldn't associate with revolutionary socialism so maybe it's worth running the JBR DNA through databases of 'friendly' countries. But I have no doubt that you would ridicule that point.
In fact, all of these things are intended to help narrow your scenario so that it can be reasonably investigated or at least given a starting point. I do this despite thinking that you are barking up the wrong tree totally but with some respect to the thought you have obviously given the case and in fact to bolster your hopes about this case which we all find so periodically discouraging.
So your dismissal of the suggestions leads me one of two conclusions:
1) You don't actually want the case solved; and
2) You don't really believe your own theory.
No offence, HOTYH: it just seems that way from here.
And on that point, bonne nuit. x