Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Deleted member 102539]

http://dnaproject.co.za/crime-scenes/crime-scene-preservation

Crime scene preservation

In South Africa, it is of great concern that the first people to arrive at a crime scene are often not qualified to investigate the crime scene. The DNA Project accordingly advocates that the SA public should and must familiarise themselves with the proper procedure when securing a crime scene in order to ensure proper identification, preservation, and collection of biological evidence that could render a criminal’s DNA profile. An Investigating Officer has only one chance to collect proper evidence at a crime scene, and this job is regularly thwarted by the destruction of a crime scene due to the negligence and /or ignorance of all or some of the public, emergency services, private security guards and lower level police officers*, who arrive at the crime scene before the Investigating Officer has a chance to uplift evidence.

*... plus sisters, brothers, "family friends" (supporters), "ohms", coaches, lawyers (Clarice and Oldw) ....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201403141170.html

South Africa: Pistorius's Lawyer Grills Cops

"You allowed yourself to give evidence that was designed to take the place of Mr Botha," Barry Roux, SC, said to former police colonel Giliam van Rensburg during cross-examination.

He was referring to Hilton Botha, the investigator who was dropped from the high-profile case last year after he admitted contaminating the scene where Pistorius shot dead his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp in February last year.

Judge Thokozile Masipa asked Roux to repeat his statement in a more simple manner.

"You are standing in for Mr Botha's evidence on aspects that you cannot stand in for," Roux said.

Van Rensburg denied this, adding that Botha expected that he would have to testify in the murder trial.


BS defence no.?, IMO

 

[44ALLAN]

You've asked some fascinating questions Allan and I've spent hours looking for possible answers. In light of what I've posted in reply, I agree that there are some very serious issues here that demand answers. I included some info about the eyes because someone with medical knowledge may be able to tie the two together within a timeframe.

“She also was clenching down on Oscar’s fingers as he was trying to open her airway. He tried to do a jaw lift manoeuver which was very difficult due to the clenching. He opened her right eyelid. Her pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky”.
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/

"The order of appearance of rigor:
All muscles of the body, both voluntary and involuntary are affected. It begins in the eyelids, neck and lower jaw and passes upwards to the muscles of the face, and downwards to the muscles of the chest, upper limbs, abdomen and lower limbs.
In violent death as by … firearms … the onset of rigor is early and duration is short.

Jj.............sorry for snipping some of your excellent post and I do hope someone more knowledgeable can answer our questions.
I've thought about this for a long time and wondered how OP's fingers could possibly be stuck in Reevas mouth when Dr.Stipp arrived !
She died in the toilet after the head shot of that there is no doubt.
OP then says he ran to the bedroom/looked for Reeva/shouted on the balcony etc etc etc.
Went back with cricket bat/broke the door down etc etc etc.
Nahhhh..............he got his fingers stuck in her mouth in the toilet when he was trying to snuff her last breath out of her..............it was her last act of defiance IMO.
How else could she be clamped onto his fingers several minutes later at the bottom of the stairs when Stipp arrived?
She must have done that very soon after the head shot IMO...............very soon !

 

[JudgeJudi]

This is an interesting addition to the jaw clenching info.

Many dying persons will exhibit the “clenched jaw” sign as a way of saying “no.” Forcing fluid may cause choking, or the dying person may draw liquid into the lungs, making matters worse.

http://kokuamau.org/resources/last-stages-life

 

[Greater Than]

Is tomorrow the day?

I'm hoping Reeva gets justice this time.

 

[Estelle]

I must say I am finding this discussion very illuminating.

 

[soozieqtips]

Is tomorrow the day?

I'm hoping Reeva gets justice this time.

I thought it was tomorrow, but I read somewhere it was on the 9th. Dewani's judge is giving her decision tomorrow on whether to throw out the case, so maybe I've confused the two.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I thought it was tomorrow, but I read somewhere it was on the 9th. Dewani's judge is giving her decision tomorrow on whether to throw out the case, so maybe I've confused the two.

Dewani is today, Monday, 8, December (it's possible it may be televised)

OP is tomorrow, Tuesday, 9 December

 

[JudgeJudi]

I must say I am finding this discussion very illuminating.

I agree. I can't believe how much knowledge I've acquired during this trial.

 

[Angela Carr]

How in hell did Masipa find this man not guilty? What a fool she is, either stupid, or she was taking instructions from higher up the ladder. Very possible in SA.

 

[Fuskier]

Dewani is today, Monday, 8, December (it's possible it may be televised)

OP is tomorrow, Tuesday, 9 December

Many thanks Judgejudi.

 

[L2L]

Assuming the 'leave to appeal' tomorrow gets the go ahead, does the appeal to a higher court go over all testimonies, statements etc from the trial. What I mean is, do the judges look into any flaws made by Masipa's judgement, the evidence given by Pistorius and some witnesses? In other words, do they go over the whole trial from start to finish? Or just look to see if Masipa made a mistake in law? I wish whoever the judges may be, could be made read Mr Fossil's document especially...and many others who have posted on this forum. Then they'd know the truth of this truly terrible tragedy.

I am so grateful to all of you for sharing your insight and knowledge to lesser mortals such as I! Well done to all and fingers crossed for the right outcome tomorrow.

 

[ColonelMustard]

This shower thing of CM is a huge mystery to me, too. Maybe his hair was still wet when he arrived at OP's house and he thought that could have been noticed and wanted to mention that himself as if sth normal in between the interview .. Maybe he was already in the shower ?

AT EIGHT minutes past three on the morning of Valentine’s Day Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps.

At his home in the Silver Woods Estate east of Pretoria he lay in bed waiting for the rain to start.(he was awake )

Almost an hour later he went to the bathroom.

When he opened the window and looked outside he couldn’t believe his eyes. His window looks out onto an empty plot and Olympic and Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius’ house.

The two men are close friends.

“His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

In the US, all the vehicles would have shown up going 80mph with lights and sirens blaring ( even if they had to slow down to get through the entrance gate area.

When that happens around here and I'm in my bed asleep, it scares the cr@p out of me.

Even if I'm not asleep, with or without sirens, all the flashing lights on the "then stationery" vehicles sitting that close to my house in the dark cannot be missed - even with windows closed and blinds/curtains drawn.

Not so for Christo in Silverwoods.

 

[ColonelMustard]

This is an interesting addition to the jaw clenching info.

Many dying persons will exhibit the “clenched jaw” sign as a way of saying “no.” Forcing fluid may cause choking, or the dying person may draw liquid into the lungs, making matters worse.


http://kokuamau.org/resources/last-stages-life

Judge, in my personal experience this describes people who are more in the natural process of actively dying. This particular description would exclude those who died instantly of a massive gunshot wound to the head.

My guess is that as soon as OP heard "the doctor is here," he panicked and in desperation jammed his hand into her stiffining mouth/jaw as far as he could get it, pretending he was doing something to help. While it may have looked to Stipp like her mouth was clenched on his fingers, in reality his fingers had been forced in so far in there that it just looked that way. My further guess is that OP pulled them out of there asap, only a nanosecond after he knew Stipp had seen his hand in there. And because OP simultaneously began chattering away rapidly with his lies, Stipp may not have had time to realize exactly what he was seeing.

As magicians say, 'the hand is quicker than the eye."

 

[Mr Fossil]

Judge, in my personal experience this describes people who are more in the natural process of actively dying. This particular description would exclude those who died instantly of a massive gunshot wound to the head.

My guess is that as soon as OP heard "the doctor is here," he panicked and in desperation jammed his hand into her stiffining mouth/jaw as far as he could get it, pretending he was doing something to help. While it may have looked to Stipp like her mouth was clenched on his fingers, in reality his fingers had been forced in so far in there that it just looked that way. My further guess is that OP pulled them out of there asap, only a nanosecond after he knew Stipp had seen his hand in there. And because OP simultaneously began chattering away rapidly with his lies, Stipp may not have had time to realize exactly what he was seeing.

As magicians say, 'the hand is quicker than the eye."

In her testimony, Carice says that most of the time OP had his finger in Reeva's mouth and even asked her to do the same while he went to get the tape etc. That was 1-2 minutes before Dr Stipp arrived.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hi Colonel. I think you first need to look at p. 63 #1565 where Allan asked many extremely interesting questions and I quoted a lot of info in reply. This was followed by ...

This is an interesting addition to the jaw clenching info.

Many dying persons will exhibit the “clenched jaw” sign as a way of saying “no.” Forcing fluid may cause choking, or the dying person may draw liquid into the lungs, making matters worse.

http://kokuamau.org/resources/last-stages-life

Judge, in my personal experience this describes people who are more in the natural process of actively dying. This particular description would exclude those who died instantly of a massive gunshot wound to the head.

My guess is that as soon as OP heard "the doctor is here," he panicked and in desperation jammed his hand into her stiffining mouth/jaw as far as he could get it, pretending he was doing something to help. While it may have looked to Stipp like her mouth was clenched on his fingers, in reality his fingers had been forced in so far in there that it just looked that way. My further guess is that OP pulled them out of there asap, only a nanosecond after he knew Stipp had seen his hand in there. And because OP simultaneously began chattering away rapidly with his lies, Stipp may not have had time to realize exactly what he was seeing.

As magicians say, 'the hand is quicker than the eye."

In response to the BIB in your quote, in fact the exact opposite is the case in a normal death.

“After death, the muscles of the body pass through stages –

1. Primary relaxation or flaccidity.
2. Rigor mortis or cadaveric rigidity.
3. Secondary relaxations (flaccidity).

Primary flaccidity

During this stage, death is only somatic and it lasts for one or two hours. All the muscles of the body begin to relax soon after death. The lower jaw falls, eyelids lose tension and joints are flexible”.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/post-mortem-changes/muscular-changes

 

[JudgeJudi]

DEWANI

Live streaming from the courtroom as to whether SD will be discharged.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/live-judgment-dewani-trial-discharge

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, it should have been rumours, but nevertheless I would like to know, who said early on after the murder, that Reeva had spoken a few last words as "I love you, I'm so sorry". Only theatrics from some newspaper?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Mabo ‏@MaboGalela 13 Min.Vor 13 Minuten

@PaulTHerman @News24. Is this guy gonna walk away free,what does this say about our NPA,2nd biggest failure in a row #DewaniTrial #Pistorius

Simon the Plumber ‏@ppleCorps 1 Std.Vor 1 Stunde

@DavidDadic @CriminalLawZA As with #pistorius, can't judge use informed opinion/common sense? That is actually "judge" based on probability?

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 2 Std.Vor 2 Stunden

Big days ahead for #Dewani (discharge?) and #Pistorius (appeal?).

Arifa Khan ‏@misskhan 17 Std.Vor 17 Stunden

SouthAfrica had been on my dream destination list. Now I'm never going there thanks to #judgetraverso #pistorius #dewani #impotentmurderers

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius

"Any place where man worships himself is a desolate place, regardless of how many marvels there might be." - the HULK

Mena_P ‏@mena_ann51 20 Std.Vor 20 Stunden

@carlpistorius @Alpha_red1: The devil and the ego are the of the same essence, both are jealous of man and forever seek his ruin."