Post sentencing discussion

[east2west]

Where's the holster on that scooter?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[JudgeJudi]

How many bullets are left in the magazine?

Witness testimony analysis 2 re-presents the sequence of events of 14 Feb based upon the supposition that Johnson's phone time is incorrect (see event comments for rationale). This then allows for the possibility that the 3 loud bangs that the Stipps hear some time after Annette Stipp wakes at 03:02 (less 3/4 minutes) are prior to the 4 shots that kill Reeva, which most ear witnesses then hear. One possibility for this first set of sounds is OP firing out of the balcony doors or bathroom window.

The photo of the magazine at the scene shows us that there are at least 10 bullets (of 17) in it but not whether there are more (except there aren't 17 as can be seen from the viewing hole marked '17' which is empty). If there are more than 10 bullets in the magazine then it is unlikely that the first sounds were gunshots. If there are 10, that leaves open the possibility that 7 shots were fired and perhaps the initial 3 cartridge casings were then removed from the scene (via Reeva's bag being one possibility). This also assumes that OP kept the magazine fully loaded, a reasonable assumption?

As there doesn't appear to be any evidence given on how many bullets are left in the magazine, I've had a go at figuring it myself.

From this picture of a disassembled 17 round magazine taken from a Taurus PT917CS (same gun) we can see that there are 12 complete coils in the spring.

View attachment 62408

Closer inspection of OP's magazine below shows two coils of the spring visible in the bottom right 'viewing hole'. The first is easy to see, and you can see the edge of the second to its right if you look carefully.

View attachment 62409

If the gap between these two coils is measured and then multiplied by 12 (the total number of coils) this then gives us an approximation for the extent to which the spring is extended within the magazine. Add the piece of yellow plastic that is used as a seat for the last bullet (see top photo) and we have an idea of where the bottom bullet sits in the magazine and therefore how many bullets remain.

View attachment 62412

The estimating method is inexact but I come to two conclusions assuming the magazine was full to start with:

1) It looks like there are only 10 bullets remaining in the magazine which implies 7 may have been fired
2) Even allowing for the inaccuracies of this approach it still looks like more than 4 bullets are missing, which again supports the 7 bullets used hypothesis

Would anyone else care to have a go at this exercise to see if you agree or not?

You're too clever for words Mr Fossil. I honestly can't imagine any murder having been examined as closely, analysed so minutely by so many dedicated people and discussed endlessly as this one, and it's still ongoing after the sentence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Ah! ... No wonder OP and family were so stoic and quiet when the sentence was delivered.

Roux is delusional - excellent chance the public will NEVER forgive OP, regardless how much time he serves.

No big surprise that Uncle Arnie’s trying to skate on Roux’s bill. Little Ozzie’s destitute, essentially unemployable for the rest of his life and with zero income, he can never repay the outstanding legal fees. OP sold all his real and personal property, including a car and set of wheels/tires ... that turnip’s been wrung dry.

Uncle Arnie sure didn’t offer any of his personal money towards that insultingly paltry (REJECTED) Steenkamp settlement, did he? He wants to make sure he’s not out anything. Really makes you wonder if he even believes OP’s “version” of “self-defense” and “terrible accident”? Seems like he’d be a bit more generous financially if he actually believed it was genuinely a tragic case of mistaken identity. Perhaps forcing OP to foot all expenses till he’s broke was his ‘punishment’ for recklessly murdering Reeva and bringing shame and notoriety to the family name.

I doubt the arrogant, belligerent OP is fearful of many people (any?) but I imagine at the top of that list is Uncle Arnie. LOL

But even worse for Uncle Arnie - though the trials’s over and OP’s sitting in VIP Prison (not the VIP Room) - Uncle Arnie’s looking at MORE legal fees with the looming appeal. Man, he must be ticked. LOL

My friggin heart just breaks. He must be incensed at being so inconvenienced! Defending the “innocent” nephew he very likely knows(?) is guilty of murder - as well as defending the family honor - must be a bitter pill to choke down.

Just take a hammer to the Cartier piggy bank on your night stand, Uncle Arnie. You’ll never miss it.

When OP is eventually is released, I can’t really see a happy homecoming at Uncle Arnold’s home. I think Arnold is not only unhappy with the outstanding fees, but his knowledge of the total disdain felt by the community at him and his family would be pretty gut-wrenching I’d imagine. So be it, he brought it on himself.

 

[JudgeJudi]

NPA pushes ahead with Oscar Pistorius appeal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNx7xQKK-a8&feature=youtu.be

Includes another brief interview with Nathi Mncube

Transcript of the most relevant part of the interview on a point receiving a lot of attention here.

Published on 29 October

"It remains a possibility that Judge Masipa could turn down their application for leave to appeal. Mncube says this however would not be the end of the road for the NPA.

"NM: We want to believe that we will be successful with our application for leave to appeal, but if that fails, of course in terms of the law, we can petition the Supreme Court of Appeal and we hope it will not get to that point of course".

The NPA remain confident that Judge Thokozile Masipa will grant their application for leave to appeal both judgment and sentencing (sic).

 

[jilly]

When OP is eventually is released, I can’t really see a happy homecoming at Uncle Arnold’s home. I think Arnold is not only unhappy with the outstanding fees, but his knowledge of the total disdain felt by the community at him and his family would be pretty gut-wrenching I’d imagine. So be it, he brought it on himself.

I agree. This whole ordeal has been a smear on the status of him and his family. Oscar has been an embarrassment. If Oscar had walked, it would be much different.

 

[soozieqtips]

When you say 'we as a group', please don't include me in that .. cheers!

This is the same Arnold Pistorius who, just minutes after the verdict was read, distastefully used the court as his stage to vocalise his "gratitude" to the judge for clearing OP of murder - while Reeva's family were still sitting there (I think). This is the same AP who publicly criticised Nel for doing his job. This is the same AP, who, along with other members of the family, helped shape OP into the killer he became, by not doing more to hold him to account for his previous atrocious behaviour.

I'm pretty sure he'd have known about Carl wiping the phone, too! The mere fact of him taking the kids in and treating them as his own doesn't mean much if his parental skills were lacking to such an extent that one of the "kids" felt entitled to get away with murder. No bloody boundaries in that family. Anything goes. I'm not saying he wasn't a better father to OP than Henke was, but he does seem to live in his own familial bubble where rules that decent law-abiding people live by are ignored and scoffed at.

 

[jilly]

Transcript of the most relevant part of the interview on a point receiving a lot of attention here.

Published on 29 October

"It remains a possibility that Judge Masipa could turn down their application for leave to appeal. Mncube says this however would not be the end of the road for the NPA.

"NM: We want to believe that we will be successful with our application for leave to appeal, but if that fails, of course in terms of the law, we can petition the Supreme Court of Appeal and we hope it will not get to that point of course".

The NPA remain confident that Judge Thokozile Masipa will grant their application for leave to appeal both judgment and sentencing (sic).

I think she will too.

 

[jilly]

This is the same Arnold Pistorius who, just minutes after the verdict was read, distastefully used the court as his stage to vocalise his "gratitude" to the judge for clearing OP of murder - while Reeva's family were still sitting there. This is the same AP who publicly criticised Nel for doing his job. This is the same AP, who, along with other members of the family, helped shape OP into the killer he became, by not doing more to hold him to account for his previous atrocious behaviour.

I'm pretty sure he'd have known about Carl wiping the phone, too! The mere fact of him taking the kids in and treating them as his own doesn't mean much if his parental skills were lacking to such an extent that one of the "kids" felt entitled to get away with murder. No bloody boundaries in that family. Anything goes. I'm not saying he wasn't a better father to OP than Henke was, but he does seem to live in his own familial bubble where rules that decent law-abiding people live by, are ignored and scoffed at.

:goodpost:

 

[Cloen]

Great to hear State are going to try and Appeal on Errors in Law
but will this include the ammunition charge , possession ?

 

[Harmony 2]

 

[RosieC]

How many bullets are left in the magazine?

Witness testimony analysis 2 re-presents the sequence of events of 14 Feb based upon the supposition that Johnson's phone time is incorrect (see event comments for rationale). This then allows for the possibility that the 3 loud bangs that the Stipps hear some time after Annette Stipp wakes at 03:02 (less 3/4 minutes) are prior to the 4 shots that kill Reeva, which most ear witnesses then hear. One possibility for this first set of sounds is OP firing out of the balcony doors or bathroom window.

The photo of the magazine at the scene shows us that there are at least 10 bullets (of 17) in it but not whether there are more (except there aren't 17 as can be seen from the viewing hole marked '17' which is empty). If there are more than 10 bullets in the magazine then it is unlikely that the first sounds were gunshots. If there are 10, that leaves open the possibility that 7 shots were fired and perhaps the initial 3 cartridge casings were then removed from the scene (via Reeva's bag being one possibility). This also assumes that OP kept the magazine fully loaded, a reasonable assumption?

As there doesn't appear to be any evidence given on how many bullets are left in the magazine, I've had a go at figuring it myself.

From this picture of a disassembled 17 round magazine taken from a Taurus PT917CS (same gun) we can see that there are 12 complete coils in the spring.

View attachment 62408

Closer inspection of OP's magazine below shows two coils of the spring visible in the bottom right 'viewing hole'. The first is easy to see, and you can see the edge of the second to its right if you look carefully.

View attachment 62409

If the gap between these two coils is measured and then multiplied by 12 (the total number of coils) this then gives us an approximation for the extent to which the spring is extended within the magazine. Add the piece of yellow plastic that is used as a seat for the last bullet (see top photo) and we have an idea of where the bottom bullet sits in the magazine and therefore how many bullets remain.

View attachment 62412

The estimating method is inexact but I come to two conclusions assuming the magazine was full to start with:

1) It looks like there are only 10 bullets remaining in the magazine which implies 7 may have been fired
2) Even allowing for the inaccuracies of this approach it still looks like more than 4 bullets are missing, which again supports the 7 bullets used hypothesis

Would anyone else care to have a go at this exercise to see if you agree or not?

I think that's a really interesting idea, Mr F. I had wondered about that some time ago when I concluded that the second set of "shots" must have been the fatal bullets. So what were the first which sounded "the same"? And "if it quacks like a duck" etc. But I have such a visceral dislike of guns that I never would have thought about checking out the magazine, which is very clever - thank you! This would make the forensic team unbelievably sloppy, which I am prepared to believe sadly. Although of course shots could have been fired from the pistol on other occasions - could ballistics tell how recent?

The jeans outside the window also made me curious. What else could have gone out the window? But has anyone determined whose jeans they are? That was one sniffer dogs could have sorted pdq.

But the MAIN reason I didn't favour a second set of real shots was because I thought it would have woken more people than just the Stipps, especially as it would have been shot out into the open air. I'm pretty sure Estelle van der Merwe heard the second set of bangs, not the first. And the dogs would have barked, as they did for the second set. But certainly not to dampen your enthusiasm, as if anything could. It is an interesting idea, and brainstorming is a great problem-solving tool, and it may well be correct.

Thinking about it now, the more Barry Roux claimed in his pseudo-sincere voice that we KNOW there were only four shots fired, the more I am inclined to believe it is false. He's a good barometer. But then I flip back to the lack of disturbance. And the dogs that didn't bark. And the Stipps were not alert for the first. And other considerations. Hmm.

 

[IndianSummer]

:tantrum:No mug shot?
I so looked forward to Scott Peterson's mug

 

[JudgeJudi]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29793210

Twitter Q&A: Milton Nkosi answers questions on the killing of Senzo Meyiwa

Riche Juif Joel emails a question: How can they stop killing each other, when sentences are as short as five years in jail?

Miltons says: True, if you use the Pistorius case as an example, but there are many more inmates who are serving longer sentences behind bars.

There seems to be so many shootings in SA. In Australia you're not allowed to own any type of firearm for self-defence purposes. In fact I've only known ONE private individual in my entire life who owned a gun but he belonged to a shooting club.

 

[Estelle]

:goodpost:

Ah! ... No wonder OP and family were so stoic and quiet when the sentence was delivered.

Roux is delusional - excellent chance the public will NEVER forgive OP, regardless how much time he serves.

No big surprise that Uncle Arnie’s trying to skate on Roux’s bill. Little Ozzie’s destitute, essentially unemployable for the rest of his life and with zero income, he can never repay the outstanding legal fees. OP sold all his real and personal property, including a car and set of wheels/tires ... that turnip’s been wrung dry.

Uncle Arnie sure didn’t offer any of his personal money towards that insultingly paltry (REJECTED) Steenkamp settlement, did he? He wants to make sure he’s not out anything. Really makes you wonder if he even believes OP’s “version” of “self-defense” and “terrible accident”? Seems like he’d be a bit more generous financially if he actually believed it was genuinely a tragic case of mistaken identity. Perhaps forcing OP to foot all expenses till he’s broke was his ‘punishment’ for recklessly murdering Reeva and bringing shame and notoriety to the family name.

I doubt the arrogant, belligerent OP is fearful of many people (any?) but I imagine at the top of that list is Uncle Arnie. LOL

But even worse for Uncle Arnie - though the trials’s over and OP’s sitting in VIP Prison (not the VIP Room) - Uncle Arnie’s looking at MORE legal fees with the looming appeal. Man, he must be ticked. LOL

My friggin heart just breaks. He must be incensed at being so inconvenienced! Defending the “innocent” nephew he very likely knows(?) is guilty of murder - as well as defending the family honor - must be a bitter pill to choke down.

Just take a hammer to the Cartier piggy bank on your night stand, Uncle Arnie. You’ll never miss it.

:goodpost:

 

[Estelle]

Quote Originally Posted by Estelle

"Where did I state that he went with Reeva? I said "she" but will edit it to read Sam Taylor as I assumed everyone knew it was Sam Taylor".



This whole bit is confusing and there's lots of articles to look at. One thing I've noticed numerous times is the threat to break legs. I've seen Batchelor interviewed where he said OP threatened to break his legs and he stated that he just ignored that comment. There are plenty of articles on that.

On the other hand, I've also seen as many articles saying that he made the threat to Batchelor but the threat was that he'd break Van der Burgh's legs. I've often wondered if OP made this threat to each of them.

In the overall scheme of things I don't think it really matters. We do know there were 3 incidents related to Van der Burgh, one with VdB himself, and the remaining 2 with Batchelor.

Let's face it, he was so out of control in 2012 that he could have done anything that year. The whole point of the list was never meant to be a timeline like the one relating to the shooting. It's really just to show more of an outline of events and approximate times showing how things appeared to be reaching a climax. It's all irrelevant now anyway. I just did it for our benefit because we like to know everything.

I am still convinced that all of these events with Van der Burgh and Batchelor occurred in November 2012 and that OP threatened to break both of their legs.

 

[Estelle]

Thanks FG. The exercise showed me that two sets of shots remains a possibility, supporting the idea that this is what the Stipps heard first, but I think the only shots to hit Reeva occurred in the toilet and were the second sounds.

This makes so much more sense than the cricket bat making sounds like gunshots.

I hope you can send your research to Nel and Grant even though there probably will not be a retrial.

 

[vansleuths]

When you say 'we as a group', please don't include me in that .. cheers!

I will remove you from the collective "we", but don't delude yourself thinking that you know all there is to know about the Steenkamp and Pistorius family. It's always easy to see the victim as angelic and in this case, the family of the convicted as demonic, but people are not black and white, but rather shades of grey and the media is very good at portraying these stereotypes.

If the tables had been turned and Reeva shot Pistorius, how different would the conversation on this forum be?

1. Would we be talking about what a national hero Pistorius was, someone that did an incredible amount of charity work?
2. Would we be talking about Reeva and how she cheated on Pistorius while she found her fifteen minutes of fame on a dime a dozen reality show and how she was worried about Pistorius finding out?

Think about it. Whatever wrong you feel uncle Arnold has done, his love for family is undeniable and he took in three kids from another family. That's love, kindness and generosity, something I respect and admire.

 

[Estelle]

When OP is eventually is released, I can’t really see a happy homecoming at Uncle Arnold’s home. I think Arnold is not only unhappy with the outstanding fees, but his knowledge of the total disdain felt by the community at him and his family would be pretty gut-wrenching I’d imagine. So be it, he brought it on himself.

Think also of the loss of income while they sat in court every day too for seven months and now to find out it's not over yet must be devastating.

It would have been far more easy for OP to plead guilty in the first place.

They've gone from thinking they're going to be winners to probably being losers of so much money, time off work, and reputation and OP will probably still spend many years in prison when he could have already a year ago been in prison serving his time. It will certainly be interesting to observe how this all works out. I am even wondering whether Arnold would even want OP to be staying at his house again if he ever does get house arrest as they could be in conflict now. I am also curious about whether OP's father will be called upon to pay OP's legal debt. If OP is eventually charged with murder and the sentence extended, then it will be a long time before OP can re-pay the debt (unless he has money offshore that they can access, of course.) I often wonder where all his money has gone if he was earning so much as there seems to be a large deficit between his income and sold assets and it could not have been just taxes!

 

[Estelle]

Great to hear State are going to try and Appeal on Errors in Law
but will this include the ammunition charge , possession ?

I think it should but I think I heard that they might not include it.

 

[Estelle]

Talking about mone, a global inequality report has revealed that South Africa's two richest people are worth as much as the poorest 50 percent of the country.

Oxfam says South Africa is still the most unequal country in the world.

Earlier this month, President Jacob Zuma said citizens were lazy and foreigners were taking advantage of the situation.

Moodley says decent jobs must be created and a minimum wage implemented if the country wants to close the gap between the rich and the poor.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/10/29/SAs-richest-worth-half-the-population