Post sentencing discussion

[jilly]

I've been working on mine, too, although it won't be as forensic as yours : ). It's a development of the 'version' I posted a while ago, as told by OP himself. Sorry it's so long!

I wake up Reeva says ‘Can’t sleep, Baba?’ I don’t look at her but I see the shape of her legs under the duvet I get out of bed rubbing my face with my hands and go over to the balcony doors it’s a really hot night but I want to close the doors and curtains even thought the aircon isn't working because I’m terrified of intruders even though I was happy to go to sleep with the doors open and the bathroom window unlocked because Reeva would have fought off an intruder all by herself I bring in the two fans that are on the balcony except they are not on the balcony moving the large one by grabbing it from the front and backing into the bedroom so I don't look at the bed which is really awkward as the fan is still on especially as I can hardly stand on my stumps I close the doors and draw the curtains so the bedroom is pitch black I shuffle around the bed but not looking at it making sure I don’t trip over the fans, ipad, hair clippers, reeva’s jeans, my grey vest, the extension cord, the fans’ cables plugged into the extension cord (except one of them isn’t because there is no space for it) and the duvet that was on the bed except it was on the floor all the while being so unstable on my stumps that I can’t balance but I can run and walk backwards on them if forced to re-enact how I killed my girlfriend

I get to the hi fi and even though the room is pitch black there’s a little blue LED light that’s really going to annoy me when I get back into bed even though it doesn’t shed enough light for me to see anything in the bedroom and I've managed to sleep every other night with it on I could switch it off at the mains socket but I reckon it would be far better to cover it with the jeans that the ultra neat and tidy Reeva has dumped on the floor inside out on top of the duvet that's on the floor except it's on the bed then SLAM! I get a startle when I hear the bathroom window slide open and Reeva's jeans fall on the floor on top of the duvet that's on the bed...

Immediately concluding there’s an intruder in the bathroom not that it could be Reeva who I am sharing a bed with and who might have got up to go to the bathroom when I was bringing in the fans that weren’t outside and not looking at the bed where I fully expect Reeva to be even though she’s actually in the bathroom I move to the left hand side of the bed and get my 9mm out from underneath it without stopping to tell Reeva what I am doing even though she's only a foot away from me (except she's in the bathroom) or pressing the panic button that I have in case intruders try to get into my house or activating the alarm that I may or may not have set before I went to sleep to attract attention or getting away from the danger by leaving the bedroom or shouting for help from the balcony or waiting in the bedroom for the intruder to come down the corridor so I could ambush him I whisper to her in a soft voice to call the police but don't check she's heard me I can't balance on my stumps but I have mobility on them so I make my way down the corridor having armed myself and approached the danger without intending to kill anyone shouting at the intruder to get the F out of my house get the F out of my house Reeva call the police while keeping quiet so as not to give away my position and not wondering why Reeva hasn’t replied then SLAM! I get a second startle when the toilet door is shut!

I get to the entrance to the bathroom and see the window is open but I’m sure there aren’t any other intruders on the ladder that isn’t propped up against the outside wall then SCREECH! I hear a sound that gives me a third startle and makes me think someone is coming out of the toilet but will later believe sounded like the magazine rack moving I decide not to fire into the shower cubicle in case the round ricochets and hits me so I fire four shots accidentally BANG...BANG BANG BANG into the toilet door without thinking (even though I had the time to think I shouldn't fire into the shower cubicle) and without meaning to fire the shots but intending to fire the shots pausing after the first shot to aim at the person in the toilet even though I never intended to kill reeva or anyone else for that matter because if I had I would have aimed higher and not hearing if reeva screamed after the first shot because my ears were ringing and I didn't foresee that firing four shots at someone behind a wooden door in a tiny cubicle might conceivably result in death

I then move back along the corridor without bothering to check whether there are any other intruders on the ladder that isn’t propped up against the wall still with my 9mm in my hand I get to the bed and I’m surprised that Reeva isn’t still in it even though I've been shouting at her and an intruder and I've fired four shots so I roll over the bed to check if she’s behind the curtains but she’s not it’s a second opportunity to activate my panic button or set off my alarm but I don’t do that or check if Reeva has actually gone out of the bedroom without activating the alarm that I can’t remember if I set or not I run back to the bathroom on the stumps I can hardly balance on screaming like a woman in fear of her life except I'm actually a man who has just realised I might have shot my girlfriend which sounds exactly the same and while shouting like a man at the same time the toilet door is locked so I shoulder charge it even though it opens outwards I run back to the bedroom to go onto the balcony taking care not to trip over the fans, cables, clippers, jeans, vest, duvet and ipad even though it’s still pitch black and the fans are blocking my way i may have tripped over the cord of the smaller fan and pulled it out of the white extension cord that it wasn't plugged into but I can't remember I shout HELP HELP HELP then go back into the bedroom past the panic button and decide to put my prosthetics on taking time to put my socks on first because I don’t want my stumps to get sore I grab my cricket bat and go back to the bathroom still screaming bloodcurdling screams like a woman whose life is in danger even though I'm a man whose life is not in danger I put down my 9mm and hit the door BASH...BASH BASH BASH coincidentally in the exact same pattern as the shots I fired earlier and by bending over so that I hit it at a height that is consistent with my being on my stumps even though I’m wearing my prosthesis I stop screaming like a woman who is being murdered as soon as I hit the door for the last time and rip the door panels off then I see Reeva slumped over the toilet but I don't make a sound even though I can see I've shot her I reach in to pick up the key to unlock the door then I check Reeva she is breathing even though she’s dead

I sit there with her for a while I don't know for how long then I battle to get her out of the toilet taking care not to get any blood on the soles of my socks I call my friend stander to tell him what's happened and to ask him to call an ambulance because that is quicker than calling for an ambulance myself then I call netcare who tell me to take a woman who's been shot in the head to hospital I go downstairs to open the door but can't remember whether I deactivate the alarm that I can't remember if I set earlier I go back upstairs to pick reeva up and take her downstairs carisse and stander arrive and I put reeva down at the foot of the stairs I stick my fingers in her mouth to help her breath while obstructing her airway even though she's dead then a doctor arrives and I scream at him to save her but he does nothing to help her and even though I've told God I'll dedicate my life to him if he lets her live she dies in my arms even though she's already dead


So now I can see why Masipa believed his story was reasonably possibly true.

AWESOME DELILAH!!!:great:

 

[ColonelMustard]

Colonel, you're a true gem! THANK YOU so much for putting this together. I've read a couple of his great OP articles and now have them all in handy list to read the rest!

Thanks, Lux! I'm really glad you can use it. :fence:


I'm being 100% serious, here, and do not in the least mean any disrespect with the following:

Speaking generally of death and gems, are you guys aware that cremains (ashes) can be made into diamonds and other gemstones?

Wild, I know, but true.

We can actually wear our loved ones (and they us!) fashioned into necklaces, earrings, bracelets, watches, ID bracelets, rings, ankle bracelets, nose rings, navel rings, *advertiser censored* things - anything!

It's been around for awhile, now, but few people have ever heard about it.

http://www.lifegem.com

Keeping this option in mind, Reeva might have been a beautiful diamond necklace. On the other hand, when Oscar goes, I'm envisioning him, perhaps, becoming a gem encrusted bu++ p!◊ÇÇ.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I continue to be amazed that his bail statement could have the wrong version. On the balcony. One fan.

This is the kind of thing that reveals Masipa to be a very low quality criminal judge utterly lacking in her own trial experience.

its simply impossible that this could be inconsistent unless he lied in one version.

Of course he tried to say "oh my lawyers prepared it" but it is his statement to the Court.

So he is a liar.

So how on earth was his explanation of the "accident" accepted?

To imply that as his lawyers prepared it, he basically didn't need to read it, just put his signature at the end is ludicrous in the extreme. His lawyers would have explained to him that it would be used in a trial and that it's just the same as testifying. We’re not talking about being booked for speeding here - it was a murder charge.

He had to prove to the magistrate the existence of exceptional circumstances in order to get bail for a schedule 6 offence. He testified that he wasn’t required to give a detailed account in his application for bail. Prior to bail being granted the State said that, “The applicant has not furnished a version of any sorts” (p.3 charge document). Not only did OP now have to give a more detailed version, but similarly it gave the State to a golden opportunity to learn more about what he claimed happened that night. A very clever ploy because, to me, this was more important than him getting bail.

However, Nel said that OP said he would stand trial “If this goes to trial”, an indication that OP seems to think that he won’t be charged, or go to jail for a long time.

OP said, "I have money, I will give you bail. I will give you my passport if you want it otherwise I’ll go on with my life". Nel says this statement means he doesn’t even realise he will be indicted.

He's being charged with murder and yet his amazing arrogance, feeling of self-importance and being special STILL allows him to think this. I just can't get my head around any of this.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/day-3-pistorius-bail-hearing

 

[ColonelMustard]

To imply that as his lawyers prepared it, he basically didn't need to read it, just put his signature at the end is ludicrous in the extreme. His lawyers would have explained to him that it would be used in a trial and that it's just the same as testifying. We’re not talking about being booked for speeding here - it was a murder charge.

He had to prove to the magistrate the existence of exceptional circumstances in order to get bail for a schedule 6 offence. He testified that he wasn’t required to give a detailed account in his application for bail. Prior to bail being granted the State said that, “The applicant has not furnished a version of any sorts” (p.3 charge document). Not only did OP now have to give a more detailed version, but similarly it gave the State to a golden opportunity to learn more about what he claimed happened that night. A very clever ploy because, to me, this was more important than him getting bail.

However, Nel said that OP said he would stand trial “If this goes to trial”, an indication that OP seems to think that he won’t be charged, or go to jail for a long time.

OP said, "I have money, I will give you bail. I will give you my passport if you want it otherwise I’ll go on with my life". Nel says this statement means he doesn’t even realise he will be indicted.

He's being charged with murder and yet his amazing arrogance, feeling of self-importance and being special STILL allows him to think this. I just can't get my head around any of this.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/day-3-pistorius-bail-hearing

Thanks so much for that, Judge. I've always wanted to know what happened in that whole bail thing but don't like to read the record. This link was GREAT!

13:46 Nair asks why a burglar would lock himself in a toilet. Roux says Pistorius didn’t know the toilet door was locked.

[My question/comment: So, it's reasonable that a burglar would go into a toilet even if they don't lock the door?? AND, so they also changed the term from "burglar" to "intruder/s" before the trial began??]

14:26 Roux to Nair: “We appeal to you to find there exists no objective facts to show this is a Schedule 6 offence.” He says there was no motive for the murder. This was an extremely loving relationship. (Pistorius cries as his brother comforts him.)

[My question/comment: Good grief. So, he started the waterworks from the get go. Geesh.]

15:28 Says Nel: “The State is concerned, and the court should be concerned, as to why people were so keen to get hold of a memory stick in Pistorius’s safe.”

[My question/comment: Anybody out there that can say more about the memory stick?? Is purse, phone, memory stick the SA equivalent of rock, paper, scissors?]

 

[JudgeJudi]

It's always bothered me as to whether it would have been physically possible for OP to bring the larger fan in with it facing him and when it's still on.

I just tried it, and yes it's definitely possible. But of course with all that other stuff on the floor, that could make it tricky if they were in the way.

 

[Estelle]

My take on the bedroom door damage has been:

1. The explanation of him running downstairs to open the front door and then attempting to barge the secondary bedroom door open on his way back to the bathroom is ridiculous.
2. For EvdM to hear the argument from 01:56 suggests that it takes place towards the front of OP's house, possibly downstairs. It may be that the front door is open (but not visibly so) at this stage because Reeva wants to leave.
3. Perhaps she runs back upstairs (to get her keys?) and OP chases after her. She locks the bedroom door and he barges it open.

Your scenario has possibilities, I need to think about it and the possible sequence of events that would lead to this happening and any implications.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...rius-trophies-were-strewn-all-over-death-flat

Some things mentioned in this media article may not be true or were they just ignored by the police?

Officers thought that Reeva's Mini might have been moved and wondered why the doors to her car had been left open.

 

[akp]

To imply that as his lawyers prepared it, he basically didn't need to read it, just put his signature at the end is ludicrous in the extreme. His lawyers would have explained to him that it would be used in a trial and that it's just the same as testifying. We’re not talking about being booked for speeding here - it was a murder charge.

He had to prove to the magistrate the existence of exceptional circumstances in order to get bail for a schedule 6 offence. He testified that he wasn’t required to give a detailed account in his application for bail. Prior to bail being granted the State said that, “The applicant has not furnished a version of any sorts” (p.3 charge document). Not only did OP now have to give a more detailed version, but similarly it gave the State to a golden opportunity to learn more about what he claimed happened that night. A very clever ploy because, to me, this was more important than him getting bail.

However, Nel said that OP said he would stand trial “If this goes to trial”, an indication that OP seems to think that he won’t be charged, or go to jail for a long time.

OP said, "I have money, I will give you bail. I will give you my passport if you want it otherwise I’ll go on with my life". Nel says this statement means he doesn’t even realise he will be indicted.

He's being charged with murder and yet his amazing arrogance, feeling of self-importance and being special STILL allows him to think this. I just can't get my head around any of this.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/day-3-pistorius-bail-hearing

Thanks for the link.

I am yet to go through the transcripts of the other days of Bail Hearing, but the Day 3 here already makes me more convinced about the role of Botha in managing to mess up the investigation to a large extent.

Also, look at

13:48 Roux concedes that there may have been an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp, but there are no witnesses to confirm it.

It suggests the following.
Roux should be able to deny outright that there was any argument at all if the DT knew there was none. So it is likely that they knew there was an argument, but weren't sure what kind of evidence will come up; thus the above statement and concession was a kind of wait and watch policy - it gave them a chance to counter any evidence that comes up later.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

FYI on those who query the tactile psychologist:
http://www.health24.com/Columnists/Oscar-the-long-awaited-verdict-20141022
22 OCTOBER 2014
Oscar – the long-awaited verdict
Hand-holding therapy

"... It was reported that before the judge entered court, Ms Harzenburg was sitting beside Oscar, holding his hand. This is not orthodox behaviour, nor does it form part of normal trauma therapy. This sort of infantilizing of Oscar could actually do real harm..." Agree.

The day, when OP testified about the "really" drama in the bathroom, the Psychologist cried fiercely like the whole family. That seems also to be as unprofessional as holding hands with the client or warmly embracing him. I had the impression, all family members and Lore H. were very in shock this day; I will never forget.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I also think he was on his prosthetics the whole time. I am not that familiar with shooting techniques but have wondered if it is common to drop to your knees as a firing position??

Something like this above.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/2014040918065/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-defence/

He said. "I was screaming and shouting at this stage. I was crying out for the Lord to help me. I was crying for Reeva … At that point all I wanted to do was just look inside to see if it was Reeva."

When Oscar became too agitated to continue the judge adjourned the court. After a few minutes his lawyer reported back on the athlete's condition saying that his shirt was wet and he couldn't come back.

Pretty simple to have break ...

 

[patCee]

Fuskier:

Agree, in the same article this is the bit that has always grated on me - "I’m a bit puzzled at how the judge and others, commenting on the tragic loss of Reeva, constantly refer to her being pretty, young and vivacious. As someone who cannot be accused of possessing any of those qualities, I’m concerned. Is it somehow less tragic if the victim is ugly, old and past their prime? "

http://www.health24.com/Columnists/Oscar-the-long-awaited-verdict-20141022

We hear or read it in many reports about domestic violence as though the physically beautiful have more worth than the ordinary. We also hear it when a younger person or child is murdered in terms of 'they were popular, intelligent, likely to achieve a successful future etc. as opposed to what? They were plain, not interested in academic matters, small group of friends. When DV cases are quoted they tend to be the extreme when someone has died or suffered terrible injuries, when much more attention needs to be given to the domination, slaps and punches, withdrawal of money that causes so much distress and can go unnoticed in relationships, often long before someone is killed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

​

What Makes A Lawyer WantTo Take A Case Pro Bono?

"If it's interesting enough -- unprecedented or career-building ... etc."

http://www.lawyerfreefaq.com/lawyer/lawyer-1-6638.html

========​

George Zimmerman's lawyers...

"3. The lawyers were tired of working pro bono..."

"4. The lawyers... seeking publicity for themselves"

http://theweek.com/article/index/226624/why-george-zimmermans-lawyers-dumped-him-5-theories

This is a question best answered by mrjitty. He's not here at the moment so I'll try.

Some may do it because they see it as a public duty.

Others may work for self-interested reasons – either to enhance their reputation, to market their services (obviously not in the case of a person such as Roux), as a loss leader for an important client (ditto), to impress someone more senior (ditto), or for other special reasons.

If the perspective of the client is paramount, then meeting the client's needs irrespective of the lawyer's motivation.

To assist individuals or organisations whose matter raises an issue of public interest which would not otherwise be pursued.

To assist charities or other non-profit organisations which work on behalf of low income or disadvantaged members of the community or for the public good.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

http://www.health24.com/Lifestyle/Healthy-you/How-to-spot-a-liar-20140409

Noncommittal phrases
A liar will use words such as "I think," "I believe," "to the best of my knowledge" or "kind of”. They try to keep the details of the story as vague as possible.

Oooohhhhh, I think, maybe I'm using the phrase "I think" here on WS a little too often ......

I quite often say 'I think' too, FG! I'm going to have to stop using it!

Love the link FG and totally agree with the article. I especially like this part -

Unable to work backwards
Someone who isn't telling the truth has difficulty telling their story in reverse. They change the details or struggle to remember the sequence of events when asked to recall the details of their story in a different order.

I had a laugh though about how often we use 'I think' or 'I believe', when it's imperative we use it on websleuths because it's our opinion in most cases, no other option but to use them, imo.
If I were a witness to a crime and I were to use those phrases repeatedly, that would be a dead giveaway that I have something to hide, eg: "I think I took the bag to the car". Either I did or I didn't, well that's how the police and a prosecuting lawyer will look at it.

 

[KarenUK]

I just tried it, and yes it's definitely possible. But of course with all that other stuff on the floor, that could make it tricky if they were in the way.

Possible, but not the easiest or most obvious way to do it, I tried it too (.... And my friends call me obsessed?!?:noooo and it was a little bit awkward, and thats with me being fully mobile.
I didnt try it in the dark with STUFF everywhere - maybe one of us could volunteer (after maybe signing a piece of paper promising not to sue me for any injuries sustained)

 

[Mr Fossil]

bbm= At this point I want to ask: with what weapon did he chase her? I can't imagine him without a dangerous subject in hands; there has to be a reason, why Reeva fled in panic (probably). Reeva had bruises on her body. We all are asked to accept, that there is no explanation for it. How can that be?

I don't think he had a weapon at this stage. Perhaps he was getting aggressive (I'm scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me)? Or perhaps she has his phone and he wants it back? Or perhaps she's simply going up to get her keys and bag and OP doesn't want her to leave?

 

[delilah]

I just tried it, and yes it's definitely possible. But of course with all that other stuff on the floor, that could make it tricky if they were in the way.

Were you on your stumps at the time, trying not to look at the bed behind you in case you saw your other half sneaking out to the bathroom? : )

 

[G.bng]

Not that I've heard of here in Oz. Surely you're not suggesting pro bono in a huge case? I've never heard of that.

What?! Never heard of in recent cases, George Zimmerman, Casey Anthony (part pro bono) or the Innocence Project that represents persons wrongly convicted pro bono, especially those facing a death sentence ? Or of the so called, Guantanamo Bay Bar Association that represents, or tries to when ever more draconian laws permit, Guantanamo detainees ? And there's many whose work goes unknown since bar associations in both the US and the UK recommend member advocates to take on a minimum percentage of pro bono work each year.

 

[delilah]

Fuskier:


Agree, in the same article this is the bit that has always grated on me - "I’m a bit puzzled at how the judge and others, commenting on the tragic loss of Reeva, constantly refer to her being pretty, young and vivacious. As someone who cannot be accused of possessing any of those qualities, I’m concerned. Is it somehow less tragic if the victim is ugly, old and past their prime? "

http://www.health24.com/Columnists/Oscar-the-long-awaited-verdict-20141022

We hear or read it in many reports about domestic violence as though the physically beautiful have more worth than the ordinary. We also hear it when a younger person or child is murdered in terms of 'they were popular, intelligent, likely to achieve a successful future etc. as opposed to what? They were plain, not interested in academic matters, small group of friends. When DV cases are quoted they tend to be the extreme when someone has died or suffered terrible injuries, when much more attention needs to be given to the domination, slaps and punches, withdrawal of money that causes so much distress and can go unnoticed in relationships, often long before someone is killed.

That is so true. It really grates on me when people go on and on about how beautiful RS was - she may well have been, but that should have zero bearing on how heinous a crime killing her was. It is part of the reason I'm finding Behind the Door such an excruciating read - Bateman and Weiner seem to be totally unreconstructed when it comes to gender politics, and the way they talk about her tips over into voyeurism IMO.

 

[delilah]

OP on 'possession' of his father's .38 amm (10 April)

This is such an interesting section, knowing what we know now. Nel's utter frustration with OP as a witness gets to boiling point. Nel asks when his father put the ammo in his safe?

OP: I don't know. My father and I haven't had communication between the two of us for many years...

Nel: why would you allow him to put ammunition in your safe if you haven't spoken for many years?
OP: there hasn't been communication for many years. I have spoken to him but there hasn't been a relationship...

Perplexed look from Nel! Is OP being deliberately unhelpful or is he just a bit stupid?

Nel clearly thinks he's got a guilty verdict on this in the bag, and why wouldn't he? He tries to get OP to say he would change his plea if he's told it's illegal to keep someone else's ammo in his safe but OP still won't concede. And Roux sits silently through this session while OP blames him and claims he told OP it was all OK to keep the ammo, and Nel says Roux would never had said such a thing. And Roux doesn't object.

And contrary to what some of us inc me have recalled, Nel did ask OP about the 38 he had on order from Van Rens for which he had no licence. But Nel didn't ask why on earth his father, who he had no relationship with, would want to put his 38 ammo in OP's safe, or how he got access in the first place when OP wasn't there to put it in the safe. Does he have keys? Did the elusive Frank let him in?

Do we really think this was Henke's ammo?

 

[KarenUK]

Do we really think this was Henke's ammo?

RSBM

Not a chance!
They werent in communication, had a strained relationship, but somehow the conversation took place along the lines of:
"Hey son, will you look after this ammo for me?"
"Well Dad as a licensed gun owner I am aware its illegal, but sure why not"