Preliminary Report Human Remains are not Hailey

[Tugela]

The polygraph is an investigative tool, and it is not inappropriate to use it as such. It's done all the time, in every case, and it gives LE an idea if someone is being deceptive. One or two deceptive answers would be normal. More than 10 would be very suspicious.
They do not normally ask open-ended questions, or allow elaborations on an answer. They only ask questions that can be answered with yes or no. They would have had to ask him specifically if Hailey was in Snyder, and I've never known of that happening unless they had already located a body or had some prior knowledge indicating where the body was. We know that is not true.
My guess is that this info didn't come up during the LDT, but when they were questioning him.

It can be used as an investigative tool (not an infallible one though). It is not supposed to be used during an interogation. It is clear from the affidavit that was how it was being used.

 

[Tugela]

So then why were the key detectives involved in her case notified of the discovery of these remains, including Tx Rangers, and so on? If this was just one lowly officer who leaked false information, then they would not have called out everybody involved in the case, nor would they have notified Billie and attempted to notify Clint. Somebody higher up had to have made that decision, it wasn't just some insignificant person who let something slip.
If this was an elaborate hoax by LE to make the suspect sweat, they did a pee-poor job of it and made themselves look like idiots in the bargain.

I'm sure that it is standard procedure to notify all local investigators with outstanding missing persons cases when a body is found. I don't think that would be unusual at all. At that point they probably had little idea of who it was due to the state of the body in the ground.

 

[Tugela]

Unprofessional use of the polygraph was probably the reason why everyone was failing them in the early stages of the investigation. Clint was wise to duck out of that, with his earlier brushes with the law he probably had more street smarts than the rest of them in that respect.

 

[StacieC]

Stacie theres one thing I was wondering if you could confirm? The week when the body was discovered although CJ said that she had seen Clint in Snyder..it was said repeatedly in the media that Clint was on a oil rig and couldnt get back. What is your take on this?

I did not see Clint in Snyder. David did say he was with his dad in Snyder. When I asked Billie if Clint had been told about the remains she told me he was with David when she called him on her way back here. With this information as well.as Ms. Connie's I believe Clint was in Snyder not on an off shore rig.

 

[For The Kids]

Unprofessional use of the polygraph was probably the reason why everyone was failing them in the early stages of the investigation. Clint was wise to duck out of that, with his earlier brushes with the law he probably had more street smarts than the rest of them in that respect.

How do you mean Clint was wise to duck out of it? he wanted to be tested

As for unprofessional use of the polygraph do you have any reason to say that or is just your opinion as I have seen nothing to indicate unprofessional use?

 

[Tugela]

How do you mean Clint was wise to duck out of it? he wanted to be tested

As for unprofessional use of the polygraph do you have any reason to say that or is just your opinion as I have seen nothing to indicate unprofessional use?

Thats what he said. I don't believe that for one minute though. If he really was open to being tested, LE would have tested him at the time (there is no reason for them not to have).

As for unprofessional use of the polygraph, if your read the affidavit here, on page 6, it is clear that it was being used during an interogation, which is completely inappropriate.

 

[For The Kids]

Thats what he said. I don't believe that for one minute though. If he really was open to being tested, LE would have tested him at the time (there is no reason for them not to have).

As for unprofessional use of the polygraph, if your read the affidavit here, on page 6, it is clear that it was being used during an interogation, which is completely inappropriate.

Then again if they really thought he had nothing to do with it..there really was no need to polygraph him.

 

[Shelby2]

I wish they would ID who these remains belonged to..

 

[Chili Fries]

Thats what he said. I don't believe that for one minute though. If he really was open to being tested, LE would have tested him at the time (there is no reason for them not to have).

As for unprofessional use of the polygraph, if your read the affidavit here, on page 6, it is clear that it was being used during an interogation, which is completely inappropriate.

I don't see anything that indicates the polygraph was used inappropriately. A polygraph is a common and accepted interrogation tool. What's inappropriate is when polygraph questions are asked in an accusatory manner, and there's nothing in the affidavit that states or implies that.

What the affidavit says is that Shawn was given a polygraph in 3 phases, with each phase narrowing the focus of the questions. In the second phase Shawn gave "a positive indication" Hailey could be found in Scurry County. So the final phase began with questions about where in Scurry County. This type of thing is common in polygraph interrogations. The subject will be given different choices to see if one of them elicits a greater response. So Shawn was probably asked...Is she on your grandmother's property? Across the road from her property? In Snyder? etc....things like that. According to the affidavit, at that point Shawn chose to quit the polygraph and leave the police station.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I wish they would ID who these remains belonged to..

I don't understand why the heck a person would choose a career in journalism if they aren't going to do anything but regurgitate press releases and cover vigils. Aren't they the least bit curious? What about being fresh and competitive? Is every journalist in this area simply content to cover the same stuff that all of the other media has, or is there someone out there with the grits to get out there and find some facts?

Who is this dead person? Tarrant County isn't going to make a press release for every body they identify; maybe all you need to do is ask for the information. Have some questions ready to follow up with if the body has not been identified yet. What specific testing has been done? How did this person die? How long has he been dead? What is his race or height? Any dental work, pacemaker, tatoos or wedding ring? Any shoes?

:banghead:

 

[x_files]

I don't understand why the heck a person would choose a career in journalism if they aren't going to do anything but regurgitate press releases and cover vigils. Aren't they the least bit curious? What about being fresh and competitive? Is every journalist in this area simply content to cover the same stuff that all of the other media has, or is there someone out there with the grits to get out there and find some facts?

Who is this dead person? Tarrant County isn't going to make a press release for every body they identify; maybe all you need to do is ask for the information. Have some questions ready to follow up with if the body has not been identified yet. What specific testing has been done? How did this person die? How long has he been dead? What is his race or height? Any dental work, pacemaker, tatoos or wedding ring? Any shoes?

:banghead:

I am curious also. Journalism is dead. No one gets paid to write in depth articles anymore.
Wonder if a blogger could call and ask questions?
I think it's weird Nancy Grace said it was Hailey then dropped the topic like a hot potato.

 

[Shelby2]

I am curious also. Journalism is dead. No one gets paid to write in depth articles anymore.
Wonder if a blogger could call and ask questions?
I think it's weird Nancy Grace said it was Hailey then dropped the topic like a hot potato.

I notice Nancy drops LOTS of things like hot potatoes.

 

[x_files]

I notice Nancy drops LOTS of things like hot potatoes.

Probably because, she (her sources) were wrong.

 

[Shelby2]

Regarding any possible 'leaks' about the remains being Hailey:

Sheriff Patrick Toombs told the Record Wednesday morning that the remains appeared to be that of a young, small person." He is the Sheriff in Mitchell County, TX.

Though much speculation has been stirred up with Mitchell County and Colorado City personnel’s presence in Big Spring, Colorado City Police Chief Roy Owens said his staff would not be involved at this point of the investigation.
“At this point, this is a Big Spring Police Department investigation and we will let them handle it however they need to,” Chief Owens said. “If they come up with something which links it to Colorado City, they will contact us at that point.”


http://www.ccitynews.net/news/story/2012/03/body-found-big-spring

And this article

Colorado City Police Chief Roy Owens told GoSanAngelo.com Wednesday that no one from his department was at the scene where the human remains were found.
He noted, “...I don't have anyone over there. Until they discover that there's any connection and until we know what the gender is, and all the details, we're not going to head out over there. We want to stay out of their way by all means.”
Owens also said regarding the find, “I'd hate to speculate. When we heard about it yesterday I knew things were going to get blown up. I knew it would take no time to get out and it would be a wildfire. It's speculation right now. Until they have a positive ID, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Law enforcement tends to wait. So until we get that call...”



http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-na...e-whether-human-remains-found-are-hailey-dunn

Perhaps the 'source' jumped to conclusions after hearing what Sheriff Toombs had to say? Could the 'source' have been a reporter? Looks like CO police were pretty up front about having no idea who the remains may belong to...

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

I don't understand why the heck a person would choose a career in journalism if they aren't going to do anything but regurgitate press releases and cover vigils. Aren't they the least bit curious? What about being fresh and competitive? Is every journalist in this area simply content to cover the same stuff that all of the other media has, or is there someone out there with the grits to get out there and find some facts?

Who is this dead person? Tarrant County isn't going to make a press release for every body they identify; maybe all you need to do is ask for the information. Have some questions ready to follow up with if the body has not been identified yet. What specific testing has been done? How did this person die? How long has he been dead? What is his race or height? Any dental work, pacemaker, tatoos or wedding ring? Any shoes?

:banghead:

FWIW and JMHO based on 25 years of experience watching and listening to the local reporters on the news and newspapers, is that these reporters are not journalists. They simply report what has occured, nothing more, nothing less. Thre is no effort in any way , shape or form to investigate anything. These reporters are content on being spoon fed any information that others toss their way. I rarely even watch the local news anymore, It is pitiful.

 

[Tugela]

I don't see anything that indicates the polygraph was used inappropriately. A polygraph is a common and accepted interrogation tool. What's inappropriate is when polygraph questions are asked in an accusatory manner, and there's nothing in the affidavit that states or implies that.

What the affidavit says is that Shawn was given a polygraph in 3 phases, with each phase narrowing the focus of the questions. In the second phase Shawn gave "a positive indication" Hailey could be found in Scurry County. So the final phase began with questions about where in Scurry County. This type of thing is common in polygraph interrogations. The subject will be given different choices to see if one of them elicits a greater response. So Shawn was probably asked...Is she on your grandmother's property? Across the road from her property? In Snyder? etc....things like that. According to the affidavit, at that point Shawn chose to quit the polygraph and leave the police station.

Lol, no they are not. You are supposed to review the questions before the test starts (they are supposed to be general yes/no, not designed to ferret out specific information), if you are just asking them as you go along then you are not carrying out the test properly. Under those conditions, particularly when the questions are accusatory, a fail is allmost guarenteed.

You can read some more about the procedures here.

And some more here.

 

[Tugela]

Regarding any possible 'leaks' about the remains being Hailey:

Sheriff Patrick Toombs told the Record Wednesday morning that the remains appeared to be that of a young, small person." He is the Sheriff in Mitchell County, TX.

Though much speculation has been stirred up with Mitchell County and Colorado City personnel’s presence in Big Spring, Colorado City Police Chief Roy Owens said his staff would not be involved at this point of the investigation.
“At this point, this is a Big Spring Police Department investigation and we will let them handle it however they need to,” Chief Owens said. “If they come up with something which links it to Colorado City, they will contact us at that point.”


http://www.ccitynews.net/news/story/2012/03/body-found-big-spring

And this article

Colorado City Police Chief Roy Owens told GoSanAngelo.com Wednesday that no one from his department was at the scene where the human remains were found.
He noted, “...I don't have anyone over there. Until they discover that there's any connection and until we know what the gender is, and all the details, we're not going to head out over there. We want to stay out of their way by all means.”
Owens also said regarding the find, “I'd hate to speculate. When we heard about it yesterday I knew things were going to get blown up. I knew it would take no time to get out and it would be a wildfire. It's speculation right now. Until they have a positive ID, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Law enforcement tends to wait. So until we get that call...”



http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-na...e-whether-human-remains-found-are-hailey-dunn

Perhaps the 'source' jumped to conclusions after hearing what Sheriff Toombs had to say? Could the 'source' have been a reporter? Looks like CO police were pretty up front about having no idea who the remains may belong to...

The city police likely don't have jursidiction though, if it is a felony it would will fall under the Sherifs domain, he would be the PI. The local police would not have been directly involved, allthough they may have been kept up to date as a courtesy.

 

[For The Kids]

I don't understand why the heck a person would choose a career in journalism if they aren't going to do anything but regurgitate press releases and cover vigils. Aren't they the least bit curious? What about being fresh and competitive? Is every journalist in this area simply content to cover the same stuff that all of the other media has, or is there someone out there with the grits to get out there and find some facts?

Who is this dead person? Tarrant County isn't going to make a press release for every body they identify; maybe all you need to do is ask for the information. Have some questions ready to follow up with if the body has not been identified yet. What specific testing has been done? How did this person die? How long has he been dead? What is his race or height? Any dental work, pacemaker, tatoos or wedding ring? Any shoes?

:banghead:

Thats what i dont get in this case. The Press really have been next to useless. There are questions that need to be asked..and they really could bring pressure to LE but...they just dont seem bothered

 

[ThoughtFox]

Unprofessional use of the polygraph was probably the reason why everyone was failing them in the early stages of the investigation. Clint was wise to duck out of that, with his earlier brushes with the law he probably had more street smarts than the rest of them in that respect.

You may be remembering a bunch of rumors about Clint, because he was never officially under suspicion, as I recall. Maybe you are confusing him with SA, who originally couldn't take the test because he was on drugs?

Both Adkins and Hailey's mother initially were turned away from polygraphs for being under the influence of narcotics, the affidavits state.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news...wers-questions-raised-by/?partner=yahoo_feeds

Hailey's father, Clint Dunn, has not taken a polygraph yet, and is not scheduled to take one at this time. He says he has volunteered to take a test.
http://bigcountryhomepage.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=328866

From Nancy Grace Transcript, in their own words, Jan. 6, 2011

Billie Dunn, thanks for being with us. What happened in the polygraph?

BILLIE DUNN: Thanks for having us again. I don`t know. They had me very faithful (ph) in that test. We brought the polygraph up first. We asked for it, and they were told us -- they told us they were very confident in those tests. They -- I put a lot of confidence into those tests.

The first Friday they had it set up for us to take, we had taken Ativan the night before to go to sleep. They didn`t tell us we couldn`t have anxiety medicine. So when we were able to get it set up again -- Shawn had actually called them and asked them if he could come down and take it yet, and they said yes. They came, picked him up. He took his. I went in. They told me he failed it. I lost it, of course. I told them I had so much faith in that test.

Then they took me over to the courthouse. I took a polygraph test. I failed it, lost all faith in the test. A couple of other people failed it. One guy I do not know. One person took it three times, took it twice and failed it...

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Ms. Dunn...

BILLIE DUNN: ... then took it and passed it.

GRACE: Who administered the polygraph to you? Who was it?

BILLIE DUNN: His name was Matt. I believe there were two different...

GRACE: Well, was it the local -- was it the local police, the FBI? Was it the Texas Rangers?

BILLIE DUNN: No, he`s a polygrapher that came from Big Spring, out of town.

GRACE: OK, Billie Dunn -- everyone, with us is Hailey`s mother. What questions did they ask you? What`d they ask you?

BILLIE DUNN: They asked if I knew anything about the disappearance of Hailey, if I caused the disappearance of Hailey, and if there were any questions I was scared that he was going to ask me.

GRACE: Let me ask you this, Billie Dunn. Where is your boyfriend?

BILLIE DUNN: He went back to his grandma`s house.

GRACE: Why?

BILLIE DUNN: As soon as I found out he failed the test, I told him I didn`t want him back at my house. And now I don`t know what to think anymore. I would just rather he stay there until she comes home or they find her and we clear this up.

~~~~~~

CLINT DUNN, FATHER: I told them that I would take one, too.

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

CLINT DUNN: I told the FBI yesterday that I would take one.

GRACE: And are they scheduling that for you?

CLINT DUNN: I have no idea.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1101/06/ng.01.html

 

[Chili Fries]

Lol, no they are not. You are supposed to review the questions before the test starts (they are supposed to be general yes/no, not designed to ferret out specific information), if you are just asking them as you go along then you are not carrying out the test properly. Under those conditions, particularly when the questions are accusatory, a fail is allmost guarenteed.

You can read some more about the procedures here.

And some more here.

It seems you are misunderstanding the complexity of these tests. A big part of pre-test interaction between the examiner and subject is geared toward persuading the subject that the examiner is professional and will be able to tell if the subject is lying or not. This is done to set the innocent person more at ease and increase the edginess of the guilty person. The interaction before the test is not to review the material with the subject, it's to try to learn about the subject and get his or her mind in the right state to create an effective test.

The actual test involves control questions to try to mark out the parameters of a deceptive answer and, like in what likely happened in the third phase of Shawn's interview, to ask questions that elicit a significant response. These are the concealed information test questions. I posted some examples of a point of stress test, where multiple choice type questions are given in hopes of one of them standing out in the subject's physiological response. There's also the guilty knowledge test, which involves more involved questions and monitoring of different physiological parameters.

I'm a general skeptic of polygraphs overall but I do acknowledge that, with a good examiner, they can add value to an investigation. And as long as the questions are asked in a professional, non-accusatory manner they are a completely appropriate as far as being a widely accepted part of LE interrogations. And there is nothing in the affidavit that hints at the polygraph being used inappropriately in this case.