Was there any doubt?
Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)
- Thread starter Tricia
- Start date
Was there any doubt?
Whaleshark
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Steve Tuttle: "You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams, different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation"
___
What does he consider incapacitation, then?
__
"The normal reaction of a person exposed to the discharge of the Taser is the loss of some voluntary muscle control resulting in the subject falling to the ground or freezing on the spot"
"The direct incapacitating effect is only likely to last for as long as the electrical charge is being delivered. The subject may recover immediately afterwards and could continue with their previous behavior. It is therefore important that an incapacitated subject is approached and restrained quickly and effectively. Whilst the five second cycle can be repeated if the incapacitation effect does not appear to take effect, officers should consider other options as there may be technical or physiological reasons why the device is not working as expected on a particular individual.
___
Taser:
From Wikipedia -
A Taser is an electroshock weapon that uses electrical current to disrupt voluntary control of muscles. Its manufacturer, Taser International, calls the effects "neuromuscular incapacitation"[1] and the devices' mechanism "Electro-Muscular Disruption (EMD) technology".[2] Someone struck by a Taser experiences stimulation of his or her sensory nerves and motor nerves, resulting in strong involuntary muscle contractions. Tasers do not rely only on pain compliance, except when used in Drive Stun mode, and are thus preferred by some law enforcement over non-Taser stun guns and other electronic control weapons.[3][4][5] At the present time, there are two main police models, the M26 and X26. Both come with various accessories, including a laser sight and optional mounted digital video camera that can record in low-light situations. Taser International is also marketing a civilian model called the C2. On 27 July 2009, Taser introduced the X3, capable of firing three times without reload.[6][7]
Tasers were introduced as non-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous subjects, often when what they consider to be a more lethal weapon (such as a firearm) would have otherwise been used. The use of Tasers has become controversial following instances of Taser use that have resulted in serious injury and death,[8][9] and while they are far less lethal than many other weapons, the United Nations has expressed concern that use of Tasers may amount to torture, and Amnesty International has reported cases where they believe that their use amounted to "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment which is absolutely prohibited under international law".[10]
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Seems to me the whole general point of a Taser or a stun gun IS to incapacitate someone.
___
Definition of incapacitate:
in·ca·pac·i·tate/ˌinkəˈpasiˌtāt/
Verb: Prevent from functioning in a normal way: "incapacitated by a heart attack".
to deprive of ability, qualification, or strength; make incapable or unfit; disable. ...
incapacitate verb - definition from Cambridge Dictionary Online: to make someone unable to work or do things normally, or unable to do what they intended to do..
___
How Tasers Work
Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI):
https://www.inlandarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=93
The use of TASER technology causes incapacitation and strong muscle contractions making secondary injuries a possibility. These potential injuries include but are not limited to: cuts, bruises, impact injuries, and abrasions caused by falling, and strain-related injuries from strong muscle contractions such as muscle or tendon tears, or stress fractures. These injuries are secondary in nature and not directly attributable to the electric output of the TASER device, but are possible consequences of the strong muscle contractions the TASER device induces to produce incapacitation.
Some of the effects may include:
Subject can fall immediately to the ground and be unable to catch him/herself.
Subjects located in the water may drown if their ability to move is restricted.
Subject may yell or scream.
Involuntary strong muscle contractions.
Subject may freeze in place with legs locked.
Subject may feel dazed for several seconds/minutes.
Potential vertigo.
Temporary tingling sensation.
May experience critical stress amnesia (may not remember any pain).
___
Taser Safety Issues:
From Wikipedia -
"....Police officers in at least five US states have filed lawsuits against Taser International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes..."
Designation as torture device
"The United Nations Committee Against Torture (CAT), an agency charged with overseeing the application of the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, arrived at the conclusion on November 23, 2007, that the use of the electric pulse Taser gun constitutes a "form of torture" and "can even provoke death." The U.N. has thus declared: "TASER electronic stun guns are a form of torture that can kill.[11] 'RESIST CARDIAC ARREST', a British Human Rights campaigning group was inaugurated in February 2010 to encourage the British Government to ratify the UNCAT and discontinue taser usage in Britain. To date, the British Government and Police have been unwilling to communicate with RCA on the issue of the UNCAT".
Deaths and injuries related to Taser use
"While their intended purpose is to circumvent the use of lethal force such as guns, the actual deployment of Tasers by police in the years since Tasers came into widespread use is claimed to have resulted in more than 180 deaths as of 2006"
"The head of the U.S. southern regional office of Amnesty International, Jared Feuer, reported that 277 people in the United States have died after being shocked by a Taser between June 2001 and October 2007, which has already been documented"
"In October and November 2007, four individuals died after being tasered in Canada, leading to calls for review of its use. The highest-profile of these cases was that of Robert Dziekański, a non-English speaking man from Poland who died in less than two minutes after being tasered by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) at the Vancouver International Airport, October 14, 2007.["
"On November 18, 2007, a 20-year-old man in Frederick, Maryland fell unconscious and died also right after being tasered".
Analysis
Between June 2001 and June 2007, there were at least 245 cases of deaths of subjects soon after having been shocked using Tasers.[64]
Of these cases:
- In 7 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause or a contributing factor or could not be ruled out as a cause of death.
- In 16 cases coroners and other officials stated that a Taser was a secondary or contributory factor of death.
- In dozens of cases, coroners cited excited delirium as cause of death.
- Excited delirium has been questioned as a medical diagnosis.[65]
- Several deaths occurred as a result of injuries sustained in struggles. In a few of these cases head injury due to falling after being shocked contributed to later death. Some police departments, like that of Clearwater, Florida, have tried to eradicate such incidents by prohibiting taser use when the suspect is in danger of falling.[66]"
____
Tasered Children
http://www.mahalo.com/tasered-children/:
Tasers, non-lethal electroshock weapons used to subdue potentially dangerous subjects, are currently in use by an estimated 11,000 law enforcement agencies in 44 countries but increasing reports of Taser use on children, some as young as six years old, are seen as a cause for concern for some parents and organizations.
The regulations surrounding Taser use vary among states and countries, but many have not banned their use on children despite warnings that an electrical shock of such magnitude could trigger a heart attack in youngsters, which was evidenced when a 14-year-old Chicago boy went into cardiac arrest after being Tasered in 2005. Taser International maintains that the device is safe to use on anyone who weighs over 60 pounds.
Tasers work by firing two small electrodes, which deliver 50,000 volts from up to 21 feet away.
The resulting shock is meant to stun and incapacitate the recipient, but not cause any permanent damage.
___
Steve Tuttle is the Vice President of Communications at TASER.
Methinks he has a reputation to protect when he states:
"You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams, different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation"... :waitasec:
___
By definition a taser or other related stun gun's whole purpose is to incapacitate.
___
What does he consider incapacitation, then?
__
"The normal reaction of a person exposed to the discharge of the Taser is the loss of some voluntary muscle control resulting in the subject falling to the ground or freezing on the spot"
"The direct incapacitating effect is only likely to last for as long as the electrical charge is being delivered. The subject may recover immediately afterwards and could continue with their previous behavior. It is therefore important that an incapacitated subject is approached and restrained quickly and effectively. Whilst the five second cycle can be repeated if the incapacitation effect does not appear to take effect, officers should consider other options as there may be technical or physiological reasons why the device is not working as expected on a particular individual.
___
Taser:
From Wikipedia -
A Taser is an electroshock weapon that uses electrical current to disrupt voluntary control of muscles. Its manufacturer, Taser International, calls the effects "neuromuscular incapacitation"[1] and the devices' mechanism "Electro-Muscular Disruption (EMD) technology".[2] Someone struck by a Taser experiences stimulation of his or her sensory nerves and motor nerves, resulting in strong involuntary muscle contractions. Tasers do not rely only on pain compliance, except when used in Drive Stun mode, and are thus preferred by some law enforcement over non-Taser stun guns and other electronic control weapons.[3][4][5] At the present time, there are two main police models, the M26 and X26. Both come with various accessories, including a laser sight and optional mounted digital video camera that can record in low-light situations. Taser International is also marketing a civilian model called the C2. On 27 July 2009, Taser introduced the X3, capable of firing three times without reload.[6][7]
Tasers were introduced as non-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous subjects, often when what they consider to be a more lethal weapon (such as a firearm) would have otherwise been used. The use of Tasers has become controversial following instances of Taser use that have resulted in serious injury and death,[8][9] and while they are far less lethal than many other weapons, the United Nations has expressed concern that use of Tasers may amount to torture, and Amnesty International has reported cases where they believe that their use amounted to "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment which is absolutely prohibited under international law".[10]
___
Seems to me the whole general point of a Taser or a stun gun IS to incapacitate someone.
___
Definition of incapacitate:
in·ca·pac·i·tate/ˌinkəˈpasiˌtāt/
Verb: Prevent from functioning in a normal way: "incapacitated by a heart attack".
to deprive of ability, qualification, or strength; make incapable or unfit; disable. ...
incapacitate verb - definition from Cambridge Dictionary Online: to make someone unable to work or do things normally, or unable to do what they intended to do..
___
How Tasers Work
Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI):
https://www.inlandarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=93
The use of TASER technology causes incapacitation and strong muscle contractions making secondary injuries a possibility. These potential injuries include but are not limited to: cuts, bruises, impact injuries, and abrasions caused by falling, and strain-related injuries from strong muscle contractions such as muscle or tendon tears, or stress fractures. These injuries are secondary in nature and not directly attributable to the electric output of the TASER device, but are possible consequences of the strong muscle contractions the TASER device induces to produce incapacitation.
Some of the effects may include:
Subject can fall immediately to the ground and be unable to catch him/herself.
Subjects located in the water may drown if their ability to move is restricted.
Subject may yell or scream.
Involuntary strong muscle contractions.
Subject may freeze in place with legs locked.
Subject may feel dazed for several seconds/minutes.
Potential vertigo.
Temporary tingling sensation.
May experience critical stress amnesia (may not remember any pain).
___
Taser Safety Issues:
From Wikipedia -
"....Police officers in at least five US states have filed lawsuits against Taser International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes..."
Designation as torture device
"The United Nations Committee Against Torture (CAT), an agency charged with overseeing the application of the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, arrived at the conclusion on November 23, 2007, that the use of the electric pulse Taser gun constitutes a "form of torture" and "can even provoke death." The U.N. has thus declared: "TASER electronic stun guns are a form of torture that can kill.[11] 'RESIST CARDIAC ARREST', a British Human Rights campaigning group was inaugurated in February 2010 to encourage the British Government to ratify the UNCAT and discontinue taser usage in Britain. To date, the British Government and Police have been unwilling to communicate with RCA on the issue of the UNCAT".
Deaths and injuries related to Taser use
"While their intended purpose is to circumvent the use of lethal force such as guns, the actual deployment of Tasers by police in the years since Tasers came into widespread use is claimed to have resulted in more than 180 deaths as of 2006"
"The head of the U.S. southern regional office of Amnesty International, Jared Feuer, reported that 277 people in the United States have died after being shocked by a Taser between June 2001 and October 2007, which has already been documented"
"In October and November 2007, four individuals died after being tasered in Canada, leading to calls for review of its use. The highest-profile of these cases was that of Robert Dziekański, a non-English speaking man from Poland who died in less than two minutes after being tasered by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) at the Vancouver International Airport, October 14, 2007.["
"On November 18, 2007, a 20-year-old man in Frederick, Maryland fell unconscious and died also right after being tasered".
Analysis
Between June 2001 and June 2007, there were at least 245 cases of deaths of subjects soon after having been shocked using Tasers.[64]
Of these cases:
- In 7 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause or a contributing factor or could not be ruled out as a cause of death.
- In 16 cases coroners and other officials stated that a Taser was a secondary or contributory factor of death.
- In dozens of cases, coroners cited excited delirium as cause of death.
- Excited delirium has been questioned as a medical diagnosis.[65]
- Several deaths occurred as a result of injuries sustained in struggles. In a few of these cases head injury due to falling after being shocked contributed to later death. Some police departments, like that of Clearwater, Florida, have tried to eradicate such incidents by prohibiting taser use when the suspect is in danger of falling.[66]"
____
Tasered Children
http://www.mahalo.com/tasered-children/:
Tasers, non-lethal electroshock weapons used to subdue potentially dangerous subjects, are currently in use by an estimated 11,000 law enforcement agencies in 44 countries but increasing reports of Taser use on children, some as young as six years old, are seen as a cause for concern for some parents and organizations.
The regulations surrounding Taser use vary among states and countries, but many have not banned their use on children despite warnings that an electrical shock of such magnitude could trigger a heart attack in youngsters, which was evidenced when a 14-year-old Chicago boy went into cardiac arrest after being Tasered in 2005. Taser International maintains that the device is safe to use on anyone who weighs over 60 pounds.
Tasers work by firing two small electrodes, which deliver 50,000 volts from up to 21 feet away.
The resulting shock is meant to stun and incapacitate the recipient, but not cause any permanent damage.
___
Steve Tuttle is the Vice President of Communications at TASER.
Methinks he has a reputation to protect when he states:
"You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams, different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation"... :waitasec:
___
By definition a taser or other related stun gun's whole purpose is to incapacitate.
Whaleshark
New Member
- Joined
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- Messages
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- 7
Excerpt from Police Use of Tasers: The Truth is Shocking:
http://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/c...ulrev&sei-redir=1#search="truth about tasers"
The ACLU of Northern California published a taser study in September 2005 entitled Stun Gun Fallacy: How the Lack of Taser Regulation Endangers Lives.
"One of the ACLU's concerns is the lack of adequate training materials. Of those surveyed, only four departments created their own materials for use in training; the remaining departments relied exclusively on those materials provided by Taser International. The ACLU extensively reviewed the manufacturer's training materials
and concluded that they "grossly exaggerate the safety of Tasers, downplay their risks, and misrepresent medical studies on their effects." For example, although Taser International was aware of at least one instance in which an officer suffered a vertebral compression fracture following a taser shock in training, it claimed in its medical safety section that "[t]here have been no long term injuries caused by the taser. In addition, the Taser International training materials that were the subject of the ACLU's review encouraged multiple shocks and did not mention the fatal consequences that could occur. Although Taser International alludes to the risks associated with multiple shocks in the current versionof its training materials, the ACLU pointed out that most departments that used the manufacturer's materials used outdated versions".
__
Even the FBI doesn't use stun guns due to safety concerns:
Federal bureaus reject stun guns
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-17-tasers-usat_x.htm
WASHINGTON — The Department of Homeland Security's two largest law enforcement divisions have rejected the use of stun guns for about 20,000 agents and officers, largely because of questions about the safety of the devices that emit electrical charges to temporarily incapacitate suspects...
...ICE rejected the devices in December 2003, spokesman Russ Knocke said. That was about a month after an officer with the Federal Protective Service, a part of ICE, allegedly was injured during a stun gun training session.
CBP issued its own ban several months later, spokesman Barry Morrissey said.
"There are enough question marks about the safety of this device," Morrissey said, citing a recent review by the agency. "The safety of our officers and the public is always a concern. It was determined that the device just didn't fit."...
http://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/c...ulrev&sei-redir=1#search="truth about tasers"
The ACLU of Northern California published a taser study in September 2005 entitled Stun Gun Fallacy: How the Lack of Taser Regulation Endangers Lives.
"One of the ACLU's concerns is the lack of adequate training materials. Of those surveyed, only four departments created their own materials for use in training; the remaining departments relied exclusively on those materials provided by Taser International. The ACLU extensively reviewed the manufacturer's training materials
and concluded that they "grossly exaggerate the safety of Tasers, downplay their risks, and misrepresent medical studies on their effects." For example, although Taser International was aware of at least one instance in which an officer suffered a vertebral compression fracture following a taser shock in training, it claimed in its medical safety section that "[t]here have been no long term injuries caused by the taser. In addition, the Taser International training materials that were the subject of the ACLU's review encouraged multiple shocks and did not mention the fatal consequences that could occur. Although Taser International alludes to the risks associated with multiple shocks in the current versionof its training materials, the ACLU pointed out that most departments that used the manufacturer's materials used outdated versions".
__
Even the FBI doesn't use stun guns due to safety concerns:
Federal bureaus reject stun guns
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-17-tasers-usat_x.htm
WASHINGTON — The Department of Homeland Security's two largest law enforcement divisions have rejected the use of stun guns for about 20,000 agents and officers, largely because of questions about the safety of the devices that emit electrical charges to temporarily incapacitate suspects...
...ICE rejected the devices in December 2003, spokesman Russ Knocke said. That was about a month after an officer with the Federal Protective Service, a part of ICE, allegedly was injured during a stun gun training session.
CBP issued its own ban several months later, spokesman Barry Morrissey said.
"There are enough question marks about the safety of this device," Morrissey said, citing a recent review by the agency. "The safety of our officers and the public is always a concern. It was determined that the device just didn't fit."...
I suppose I should have included more context.
Yes, Tuttle is has an interest in saying good things about his product and I don’t blame him.
There is nothing, however, in his comments regarding the Air Taser 34000 "civilian version" that is misleading.
First of all, he was being interviewed about one specific model which Lou Smit was suggesting could have been used on JonBenet and addressed some of the ridiculous statements that Lou was making.
The model in question was a model available to the general public, not the considerably more powerful Tasers sold to law enforcement.
In direct contact mode, or drive stun mode as Taser literature refers to it, the Air Taser 34000 was best suited for self defense, rather than as an offensive weapon.
Its primary feature was that it could inflict pain on an assailant.
Its primary feature was not that it could incapacitate an individual.
This is essentially what he was saying when he said, "You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams, different yelps, different people kicking,” and unlike many who simply talk the talk he demonstrated that what he said was true by tasing himself during the interview with an Air Taser 34000.
Reporter: Can you apply it to your arm?
Steve Tuttle: I can, ah, it's not fun, but (applies to arm held in air, the contact is brief and repeating as the arm jumps away) Ahh (he grunted) It's very disconcerting and makes you want to stay away from it. It's somewhat painful. To me that just felt like pins and needles hitting on my arm right now and I want to get away from that pain.
The Air Taser 34000 has an output wattage of only 7 watts and was designed primarily to inflict pain. The present day “fourth generation” models operate at 14 -26 watts and are designed to cause “neuromuscular incapacitation” and, of course, pain.
The X26 which operates at 26 watts and is available to law enforcement only is a force to be reckoned with and is truly a scary weapon.
Here is further support of what Tuttle said:
As popularity spread though the police community, the Air Taser Company was invited by the Czech police to provide a live demonstration in Prague. The presentation turned out to be a total failure as repeated police officers were able “fight through the pain” and lay hands on the person shooting the Air Taser 34000. Upon returning home defeated and embarrassed, the team began to develop a more foolproof technology. They realized that the stun gun effects of the model 34000 did not neuromuscularly incapacitate an assailant, especially if that assailant was strong of mind. They worked on a new electrical waveform, that would deliver uncontrollable muscle spasms, to immediately drop any aggressor, no matter how determined or violent. The Advanced Taser M18 and M26 models were born. After that, thousands of worldwide law enforcement agencies readily accepted this new technology, implementing the non-lethal tool as an alternative to using a deadly firearm.
http://www.stun-guns-info.com/page/5/
With respect to the safety of Taser devices, I’ve seen several independent studies that indicate they are indeed a safe device.
Here is one example below:
The research examined nearly 1,000 cases of Taser use, and found 99.7 per cent of them had either no injuries, or only mild injuries such as "scrapes and bruises". In 0.3 per cent of the cases (3 people) the injuries were serious enough to require hospital admission. Two had head injuries sustained during falls after the Taser was used and the third was hospitalized two days after arrest with a condition "of unclear relationship to the Taser" said the researchers in a prepared statement.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/84955.php
Some sources that decry the Taser and essentially call it an instrument of death are far from unbiased.
The ACLU is one example, heck, they would do away with police never mind just doing away with any weapon they use.
