Ransom note location.

[Gunther Toody]

The whole story of the ransom note is ridiculous.
I am not even talking about the rambling text. I am talking about it's location on the stairs.

From Patsy's 1997 police interview:

PR: Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup and uh and then I started down the stairs, John was still in the bathroom and went uh, I stopped kind of briefly there in the laundry room area um, and I remember the ironing board was up I think and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenet’s cause it had, had some spots on it and I was going to remember to do something with that when I got back and uh, so I had, I had the light on in there in the laundry room area and uh, um then I started down the spiral staircase there. I came, I had come back down, I’d come down the back bedroom stairs there. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .from my bathroom. Um, I started down the spiral stairs and when I got nearly to the bottom I saw these three pieces of paper, like notebook size paper, on, on the run of the stairs and uh, I went on down and turned around and started reading, reading it. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And uh, I, I remember reading the first couple of lines and I kind of, didn’t know what it was or uh, and then I (inaudible) you know after the first couple of lines I, it dawned on me, it said something about, ‘We have your daughter’ or something . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I uh, I ran back upstairs and pushed open the door to her room and she wasn’t in her bed.

TT: Okay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point here that makes it ridiculous is the fact that she claims to have seen the papers on the stairs, then continues down.

The first image is from the CBS reenactment of the crime scene that shows the location of the papers on the stairs as Patsy described.

The second image is a crime scene photo of the actual stairs.
Aside from the fact that these stairs look to be treacherous in their own right, compound that with the fact that it was mostly dark in the house.

The third image is a modern depiction of building code spacing of spiral staircases showing the spacing between steps. Not knowing the specifics of the Ramsey spiral staircase, it looks to be common and building codes need to be followed...consequently, it is pretty safe to assume that the stair spacing on those stairs is at least 8-9 inches, allowing for leeway.

So we are to believe that she jumped sixteen inches minimum down on a spiral staircase in near darkness to avoid touching papers on the stairs that she claimed she had no idea what they said until she turned around and read them....while she is still in remission from ovarian cancer.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I think it's also worth noting that the spiral staircase is not the main staircase in the house, and it's kind in the back of the house behind the kitchen. Seems to me to be a bit of an odd place for an intruder to leave the note. If the plan was to leave it on the stairs, wouldn't the main stairs for the home be a more logical choice? It's also interesting that PR told LE that it was normal for them to set things on those stairs to remind them to take those things upstairs. Something an intruder should not have known.

The police tested going up and down the spiral staircase. It was especially tricky when it was dark, as it would have been at 5:45ish in the morning. They could not recreate her claims of climbing over the bottom steps to avoid stepping on the pages themselves. And yet, there were no footprints found on the pages.

We are also to believe that after PR screams, JR comes down the stairs in his underwear, moves the pages from the staircase and gets down on his knees to read the note, not leaving a single fingerprint on any of the pages. There is some running around back upstairs to check in BR's room and the 911 call is made at 5:52AM and the first officer arrives on the scene within 7 minutes. JR is now fully dressed, calm and collected.

 

[GRT]

The whole story of the ransom note is ridiculous.
I am not even talking about the rambling text. I am talking about it's location on the stairs.

From Patsy's 1997 police interview:

PR: Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup and uh and then I started down the stairs, John was still in the bathroom and went uh, I stopped kind of briefly there in the laundry room area um, and I remember the ironing board was up I think and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenet’s cause it had, had some spots on it and I was going to remember to do something with that when I got back and uh, so I had, I had the light on in there in the laundry room area and uh, um then I started down the spiral staircase there. I came, I had come back down, I’d come down the back bedroom stairs there. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .from my bathroom. Um, I started down the spiral stairs and when I got nearly to the bottom I saw these three pieces of paper, like notebook size paper, on, on the run of the stairs and uh, I went on down and turned around and started reading, reading it. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And uh, I, I remember reading the first couple of lines and I kind of, didn’t know what it was or uh, and then I (inaudible) you know after the first couple of lines I, it dawned on me, it said something about, ‘We have your daughter’ or something . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I uh, I ran back upstairs and pushed open the door to her room and she wasn’t in her bed.

TT: Okay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point here that makes it ridiculous is the fact that she claims to have seen the papers on the stairs, then continues down.

The first image is from the CBS reenactment of the crime scene that shows the location of the papers on the stairs as Patsy described.

The second image is a crime scene photo of the actual stairs.
Aside from the fact that these stairs look to be treacherous in their own right, compound that with the fact that it was mostly dark in the house.

The third image is a modern depiction of building code spacing of spiral staircases showing the spacing between steps. Not knowing the specifics of the Ramsey spiral staircase, it looks to be common and building codes need to be followed...consequently, it is pretty safe to assume that the stair spacing on those stairs is at least 8-9 inches, allowing for leeway.

So we are to believe that she jumped sixteen inches minimum down on a spiral staircase in near darkness to avoid touching papers on the stairs that she claimed she had no idea what they said until she turned around and read them....while she is still in remission from ovarian cancer.

MOO, it would be normal to step past the papers since bending down from an upper stair to pick them up would be challenging for anyone--even someone who hasn't recently had surgery. Set some papers on your stairs and try it and you'll see what I mean.

I didn't see any testimony that she jumped over them. More likely, she just stepped on one or between them as she stepped down.

But yes, both sets of stairs appear to be up to code--the 4-inch maximum clearance has to do with not having a gap any wider so a child could slip through. the basic stair configuration follows a 7/11 ratio. No more than a 7-inch rise and no less than an 11-inch tread.

 

[GRT]

I think it's also worth noting that the spiral staircase is not the main staircase in the house, and it's kind in the back of the house behind the kitchen. Seems to me to be a bit of an odd place for an intruder to leave the note. If the plan was to leave it on the stairs, wouldn't the main stairs for the home be a more logical choice? It's also interesting that PR told LE that it was normal for them to set things on those stairs to remind them to take those things upstairs. Something an intruder should not have known.

The police tested going up and down the spiral staircase. It was especially tricky when it was dark, as it would have been at 5:45ish in the morning. They could not recreate her claims of climbing over the bottom steps to avoid stepping on the pages themselves. And yet, there were no footprints found on the pages.

We are also to believe that after PR screams, JR comes down the stairs in his underwear, moves the pages from the staircase and gets down on his knees to read the note, not leaving a single fingerprint on any of the pages. There is some running around back upstairs to check in BR's room and the 911 call is made at 5:52AM and the first officer arrives on the scene within 7 minutes. JR is now fully dressed, calm and collected.

Are we assuming that an intruder who might have killing or pedophilia on his/her mind is thinking logically?

I don't see any evidence the intruder would have needed to know the family sets things on the stairs. What does that have to do with putting papers on the stairs so they'd be visible when the family came down or went up? It seems illogical to think the intruder placed them there because the family also placed items there.

I also don't think it's unusual to get dressed if you know the cops are going to show up. I think most people will put on some clothes rather than be caught in their underwear.

Keep in mind that DNA evidence has ruled the Ramsey family out so all this conjecture is really just that -- empty conjecture.

MOO

 

[Gunther Toody]

Are we assuming that an intruder who might have killing or pedophilia on his/her mind is thinking logically?

I don't see any evidence the intruder would have needed to know the family sets things on the stairs. What does that have to do with putting papers on the stairs so they'd be visible when the family came down or went up? It seems illogical to think the intruder placed them there because the family also placed items there.

I also don't think it's unusual to get dressed if you know the cops are going to show up. I think most people will put on some clothes rather than be caught in their underwear.

Keep in mind that DNA evidence has ruled the Ramsey family out so all this conjecture is really just that -- empty conjecture.

MOO

The DNA did not clear the Ramsey's.
DA Mary Lacy claimed they were cleared but it was not official, nor was her exoneration letter legally binding.
Subsequent DA's did not agree with her findings.

It is logical to set something on a stair if you want to remember it when you go up...but it is illogical to do so for someone coming down.
In a worst case scenario, the person could slip and fall if the paper were to slide when being stepped on.

We are not assuming there was an intruder since there is no evidence indicating otherwise.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Are we assuming that an intruder who might have killing or pedophilia on his/her mind is thinking logically?

I don't see any evidence the intruder would have needed to know the family sets things on the stairs. What does that have to do with putting papers on the stairs so they'd be visible when the family came down or went up? It seems illogical to think the intruder placed them there because the family also placed items there.

I also don't think it's unusual to get dressed if you know the cops are going to show up. I think most people will put on some clothes rather than be caught in their underwear.

Keep in mind that DNA evidence has ruled the Ramsey family out so all this conjecture is really just that -- empty conjecture.

MOO

Did this intruder have killing or pedophelia on his/her mind? I thought it was supposed to be a kidnapping? Wasn't that the purpose of the RN?

My point was questioning why were those stairs chosen instead of the main stairs? The intruder knew that was where they placed things and had the best chance of being seen immediately? We actually don't even know the pages were there, it's only what PR told police. No fingerprints, no footprints.

And my point about JR getting dressed in such a short amount of time is simply questioning the timeline they have presented as what happened that morning. Just like their timeline from the night before, which facts and their own changing stories and contradictory statements call into question.

DNA evidence has not ruled the R's out. Not by a long shot. As has been stated by her predecessor, Mary Lacy's pronouncement had/has no legal bearing. That DNA is touch and may be a composite of several people who could have left it there in any manner not related to what happened that night. It's weak. Lacy's pronouncement was and still is controversial.

 

[T rex]

The DNA did not clear the Ramsey's.
DA Mary Lacy claimed they were cleared but it was not official, nor was her exoneration letter legally binding.
Subsequent DA's did not agree with her findings.

It is logical to set something on a stair if you want to remember it when you go up...but it is illogical to do so for someone coming down.
In a worst case scenario, the person could slip and fall if the paper were to slide when being stepped on.

We are not assuming there was an intruder since there is no evidence indicating otherwise.

I agree 100% that the DNA does not clear the Ramsey's. What was used to wipe Jonbenet down? It has never been identified or located and I assume it never will be but unless it is the DNA means absolutely nothing.

 

[GRT]

Did this intruder have killing or pedophelia on his/her mind? I thought it was supposed to be a kidnapping? Wasn't that the purpose of the RN?

My point was questioning why were those stairs chosen instead of the main stairs? The intruder knew that was where they placed things and had the best chance of being seen immediately? We actually don't even know the pages were there, it's only what PR told police. No fingerprints, no footprints.

And my point about JR getting dressed in such a short amount of time is simply questioning the timeline they have presented as what happened that morning. Just like their timeline from the night before, which facts and their own changing stories and contradictory statements call into question.

DNA evidence has not ruled the R's out. Not by a long shot. As has been stated by her predecessor, Mary Lacy's pronouncement had/has no legal bearing. That DNA is touch and may be a composite of several people who could have left it there in any manner not related to what happened that night. It's weak. Lacy's pronouncement was and still is controversial.

For all intents and purposes, DNA evidence has ruled the Ramsey's out. And, as Smit shows, it ruled them out way before the actual announcement that it ruled them out.

How would anyone other than the perp know why they chose the backstairs instead of the front? They chose that set of stairs for whatever reason was in their head.

Why did they change from a kidnapping to a murder? Who knows? Perhaps JBR started making noise and the perp decided to quiet her. None of us can second guess the perp's thoughts.

But, what I'm hearing here today--and granted, I rarely frequent the JBR threads because there's been no new evidence or suspects--is pure fantasy. I doubt I'll stick around these threads long because there's nothing of real value in them. It's conjecture that doesn't even make sense.

I think it'd be great to find out once and for all who killed JBR and get some sort of justice, but looking toward the family is looking in the wrong direction.

And the so-called "evidence" being presented here--such as someone walking down past the papers (which is normal) is just hard to fathom.

All JMOO

 

[Meara]

Two small points -

JR told police that there were no lights left on in the house that night after everyone went to bed. However, PR mentioned that they kept low light wall sconces on at night - night lights, essentially. The sconces by the spiral stairs can be seen below at 7:47 in the walk-through video of the house. If PR's statement is correct, the spiral staircase area would not have been completely dark.

PR said she stepped over the tread holding the note to the tread below and then turned around to look at the note. In PMPT, Schiller tells us that the Boulder police were unable to reproduce the maneuver PR described because the curved stairs made doing so too hazardous.

 

[TizerisT]

The whole story of the ransom note is ridiculous.
I am not even talking about the rambling text. I am talking about it's location on the stairs.

From Patsy's 1997 police interview:

PR: Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup and uh and then I started down the stairs, John was still in the bathroom and went uh, I stopped kind of briefly there in the laundry room area um, and I remember the ironing board was up I think and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenet’s cause it had, had some spots on it and I was going to remember to do something with that when I got back and uh, so I had, I had the light on in there in the laundry room area and uh, um then I started down the spiral staircase there. I came, I had come back down, I’d come down the back bedroom stairs there. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .from my bathroom. Um, I started down the spiral stairs and when I got nearly to the bottom I saw these three pieces of paper, like notebook size paper, on, on the run of the stairs and uh, I went on down and turned around and started reading, reading it. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And uh, I, I remember reading the first couple of lines and I kind of, didn’t know what it was or uh, and then I (inaudible) you know after the first couple of lines I, it dawned on me, it said something about, ‘We have your daughter’ or something . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I uh, I ran back upstairs and pushed open the door to her room and she wasn’t in her bed.

TT: Okay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point here that makes it ridiculous is the fact that she claims to have seen the papers on the stairs, then continues down.

The first image is from the CBS reenactment of the crime scene that shows the location of the papers on the stairs as Patsy described.

The second image is a crime scene photo of the actual stairs.
Aside from the fact that these stairs look to be treacherous in their own right, compound that with the fact that it was mostly dark in the house.

The third image is a modern depiction of building code spacing of spiral staircases showing the spacing between steps. Not knowing the specifics of the Ramsey spiral staircase, it looks to be common and building codes need to be followed...consequently, it is pretty safe to assume that the stair spacing on those stairs is at least 8-9 inches, allowing for leeway.

So we are to believe that she jumped sixteen inches minimum down on a spiral staircase in near darkness to avoid touching papers on the stairs that she claimed she had no idea what they said until she turned around and read them....while she is still in remission from ovarian cancer.

whats hard to believe about this account?

 

[TizerisT]

For all intents and purposes, DNA evidence has ruled the Ramsey's out. And, as Smit shows, it ruled them out way before the actual announcement that it ruled them out.

How would anyone other than the perp know why they chose the backstairs instead of the front? They chose that set of stairs for whatever reason was in their head.

Why did they change from a kidnapping to a murder? Who knows? Perhaps JBR started making noise and the perp decided to quiet her. None of us can second guess the perp's thoughts.

But, what I'm hearing here today--and granted, I rarely frequent the JBR threads because there's been no new evidence or suspects--is pure fantasy. I doubt I'll stick around these threads long because there's nothing of real value in them. It's conjecture that doesn't even make sense.

I think it'd be great to find out once and for all who killed JBR and get some sort of justice, but looking toward the family is looking in the wrong direction.

And the so-called "evidence" being presented here--such as someone walking down past the papers (which is normal) is just hard to fathom.

All JMOO

Exactly true. This sites reputation has really taken a nosedive in my eyes. The majority here don't seem to be able to get past the first hurdle.

 

[iamshadow21]

Two small points -

JR told police that there were no lights left on in the house that night after everyone went to bed. However, PR mentioned that they kept low light wall sconces on at night - night lights, essentially. The sconces by the spiral stairs can be seen below at 7:47 in the walk-through video of the house. If PR's statement is correct, the spiral staircase area would not have been completely dark.

PR said she stepped over the tread holding the note to the tread below and then turned around to look at the note. In PMPT, Schiller tells us that the Boulder police were unable to reproduce the maneuver PR described because the curved stairs made doing so too hazardous.

For what it's worth, for a time I lived in a home with a spiral stair that tight of virtually the same design, with all those openings between the treads. Traversing it was unnerving at the best of times. If I'd tried to skip a stair going down in broad daylight, let alone the dark, I would seriously have been risking a fall, a lethal one. The only safe way I could have avoided paper left on a tread would be to sit down on a step above and crawl/shuffle over them, clinging to whatever I could.

MOO

 

[Meara]

For what it's worth, for a time I lived in a home with a spiral stair that tight of virtually the same design, with all those openings between the treads. Traversing it was unnerving at the best of times. If I'd tried to skip a stair going down in broad daylight, let alone the dark, I would seriously have been risking a fall, a lethal one. The only safe way I could have avoided paper left on a tread would be to sit down on a step above and crawl/shuffle over them, clinging to whatever I could.

MOO

Thank you! Real life experience and concrete detail are just the best! I'm glad you lived to tell the tale! I always figured that the sconces were placed near the stairs for safety reasons.

 

[GRT]

For what it's worth, for a time I lived in a home with a spiral stair that tight of virtually the same design, with all those openings between the treads. Traversing it was unnerving at the best of times. If I'd tried to skip a stair going down in broad daylight, let alone the dark, I would seriously have been risking a fall, a lethal one. The only safe way I could have avoided paper left on a tread would be to sit down on a step above and crawl/shuffle over them, clinging to whatever I could.

MOO

Some spiral staircases are tiny and hazardous. Others, not so much.

Like standard staircases, the treads come in various widths and they're intended to be walked along the outer perimeter because the inner part is too small for safely ascending or descending.

If it was common to set things on the stairs -- those items were likely placed on the narrow inner spaces to leave room on the wider areas to walk.

I've been on two spirals--one in the top of a lighthouse that was scary to walk on, and one in the corner of a restaurant where patrons had to go up to get to the bar area. That one wasn't scary at all.

 

[iamshadow21]

Some spiral staircases are tiny and hazardous. Others, not so much.

Like standard staircases, the treads come in various widths and they're intended to be walked along the outer perimeter because the inner part is too small for safely ascending or descending.

If it was common to set things on the stairs -- those items were likely placed on the narrow inner spaces to leave room on the wider areas to walk.

I've been on two spirals--one in the top of a lighthouse that was scary to walk on, and one in the corner of a restaurant where patrons had to go up to get to the bar area. That one wasn't scary at all.

The one I lived with was definitely tiny and hazardous, and it looked identical in dimensions to the one in the photos above. The only difference was, ours was fully metal. The steps and handrail weren't wooden like the Ramsey's.

 

[GRT]

The one I lived with was definitely tiny and hazardous, and it looked identical in dimensions to the one in the photos above. The only difference was, ours was fully metal. The steps and handrail weren't wooden like the Ramsey's.

That sounds like the one in the lighthouse. It didn't have a railing either, but it was very narrow with a wall on the outside and a small post on the inside, and the steps were steep. The foot on the inside had barely enough room for the top part of the foot to step. I always felt as though I could slip and fall. But it was like 180 years old, and they didn't have building codes back then, I guess.