Rebecca and the 'rescue breaths'

[MyBelle]

So am I understanding correctly that there is not a perception that Rebecca lied? Rebecca gave rescue breaths and described them accurately as rescue breaths, but others later determined Max would have survived if he had received CPR instead of rescue breaths?

I think the doctors perception was that RZ lied about the circumstances and timeframe and that's why they wanted CPS involved. The extent of Max's injuries included brain death yet EMT's response was under 5 minutes, iirc.

 

[*Lash*]

Where did author Joan Kron get this information?

Snip - Zahau started giving Max mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and yelled up to the only other person in the house, her 13-year-old sister, XZ, to call 911. XZ had arrived the day before from St. Joseph, Mo., for a two-week visit, and had just stepped out of the shower and was blowing out her hair. She couldn’t find the landline, so she used Rebecca’s cell. “The girl was not real clear about the address,” says San Diego County Sheriff William Gore, discussing the accident. “She was confused and in shock.” The 911 call was logged in at 10:10 a.m. At 10:12, Coronado EMT arrived at the mansion. They found Max on the floor with no respiration and Rebecca, an experienced eye-surgery technician, giving CPR. Ocean was on the landing, halfway up the massive stairway. The fire department arrived at 10:30. It took 25 minutes to get a pulse. Too long.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

 

[Inparadise]

Where did author Joan Kron get this information?

It would appear that there are several "different" versions about what happened regarding CPR that morning........I wonder if Ms. Kron took someone's word regarding this detail, or did she actually do some fact-checking?

 

[Betty P]

I think the doctors perception was that RZ lied about the circumstances and timeframe and that's why they wanted CPS involved. The extent of Max's injuries included brain death yet EMT's response was under 5 minutes, iirc.

Do you have a link or a quote? Which doctor?

 

[Inparadise]

Do you have a link or a quote? Which doctor?

Peterson has not said a word...........which makes me wonder who came up with the supposed statements he made to the family? Docs don't make off-handed remarks to family about patients, nor do they necessarily share certain details of their thoughts about what may or may not have happened......until they are sure. To do otherwise would not only be unethical, but unprofessional as well.......IMO.

 

[K_Z]

And what we found out on the last Dr. Phil show is that there was a lot more concern about the involvement of the razor scooter than has been released in the past year. The Razor has been pretty much minimized as a contributor to the fall until recently. I wonder why that would be? Perhaps that the scooter involvement "ups" the liability angle on several layers.

I think it is highly likely that the severe fall, coupled with the involvement of the Razor scooter inside and around steps, also contributed to the perception that this was a "reportable" incident to CPS, as well as possibly reportable to other safety and regulatory agencies.

Max's safety was the concern for notifying CPS-- and it had little to nothing to do with Rebecca at that point, imo. And Dina's home enviroment was also very likely on the list for CPS to evaluate for safety, since he lived in a "blended family" between 2 homes. That is also a strong possibility why they said not to notify her that CPS was notified-- she was also to be part of the investigation.

 

[Inparadise]

And what we found out on the last Dr. Phil show is that there was a lot more concern about the involvement of the razor scooter than has been released in the past year. The Razor has been pretty much minimized as a contributor to the fall until recently. I wonder why that would be? Perhaps that the scooter involvement "ups" the liability angle on several layers.

I think it is highly likely that the severe fall, coupled with the involvement of the Razor scooter inside and around steps, also contributed to the perception that this was a "reportable" incident to CPS, as well as possibly reportable to other safety and regulatory agencies.

Max's safety was the concern for notifying CPS-- and it had little to nothing to do with Rebecca at that point, imo. And Dina's home enviroment was also very likely on the list for CPS to evaluate for safety, since he lived in a "blended family" between 2 homes. That is also a strong possibility why they said not to notify her that CPS was notified-- she was also to be part of the investigation.

Good point about Dina going to be a part of the investigation.........

 

[K_Z]

Good point about Dina going to be a part of the investigation.........I am sure that the trampolene on the 2nd story sun deck at 1124 G Ave would have come under scrutiny.

Really?? Yikes! A full sized trampoline?? Or a mini?

Holy cow. I hope it at least had a net cage. :what:

 

[*Lash*]

It is mentioned in search warrant 41290 that Dr. Peterson spoke with Det. Adkins during a follow up of the detectives investigation. An assault, murder nor CPR are mentioned by either Det. Adkins or Dr. Peterson. The doctor expressed concerns that suffocation may have occurred prior to Max's fall. The doctor did not use the words intentional suffocation, but by the some of the items Det. Adkins intended to look for could lead one to believe he was looking for items that could be used to strangle or suffocate a person. Example, belts, ropes, electrical cords, etc. According to the list of inventory, it is important to note that none of the example items were found and taken from the home as evidence.

Detective Adkins also requested the warrant to be sealed. The search warrant was not requested until days after RZ's death. In my opinion, it makes one wonder who Det. Adkins considered a perpetrator and who the detective was concerned may destroy evidence? RZ was already deceased. And again, there is no mention or concern whether RZ did or did not give CPR/rescue breaths by either the detective or the doctor.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41290.pdf

 

[MyBelle]

Good point about Dina going to be a part of the investigation.........I am sure that the trampolene on the 2nd story sun deck at 1124 G Ave would have come under scrutiny.

With all due respect, it's only your speculation that Dina or her home was going to be under CPS scrutiny. And what does a trampolene that is outside have anything at all to do with Max's fall?

Max's injuries occurred at his father's home but I don't believe doctors summoned CPS because they were worried about his future safety at either home.

The EMT report that is posted as a sticky on this forum makes no mention at all of the scooter or a trampoline blocks away. It does note that the responders received little information about what happened and had no idea how much time had elapsed since his fall and that no CPR was given prior to their arrival.

I think it's a given that CPS would be alerted under the circumstances. If the child's fall was due to riding a scooter in a dangerous manner, it would beg the question as to why he wasn't being supervised properly.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

It is mentioned in search warrant 41290 that Dr. Peterson spoke with Det. Adkins during a follow up of the detectives investigation. An assault, murder nor CPR are mentioned by either Det. Adkins or Dr. Peterson. The doctor expressed concerns that suffocation may have occurred prior to Max's fall. The doctor did not use the words intentional suffocation, but by the some of the items Det. Adkins intended to look for could lead one to believe he was looking for items that could be used to strangle or suffocate a person. Example, belts, ropes, electrical cords, etc. According to the list of inventory, it is important to note that none of the example items were found and taken from the home as evidence.

Detective Adkins also requested the warrant to be sealed. The search warrant was not requested until days after RZ's death. In my opinion, it makes one wonder who Det. Adkins considered a perpetrator and who the detective was concerned may destroy evidence? RZ was already deceased. And again, there is no mention or concern whether RZ did or did not give CPR/rescue breaths by either the detective or the doctor.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41290.pdf

I believe the search warrant was sealed because the ME had not finished his report. JS would have received a copy of the search warrant whether sealed or not.

The doctor expressed concerns about descriptions of the incident. Surely you do not believe he thought Max suffocated himself?

pg 5 beginning line 13


During the follow--during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.
Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the --the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall.

JMO

 

[*Lash*]

This thread was created to discuss the CPR story/theories. What I find interesting is Dina's focus on whether or not RZ gave Max CPR. I understand what lies beneath her focus is the theory that RZ lied. RZ did not lie to the responding officers as it was stated in the EMS no CPR was given prior to arrival. Where the story of CPR begins after the EMS report is basically unknown except for what Nina has told us. However, if there was a lie, it did not influence the care Max received. Max did not die because CPR was not administered prior to the arrival of EMS. In my opinion, the whole CPR story is only being used to support theories that RZ was a liar. Until and if ever Jonah speaks, we do not know what RZ actually said to Jonah. It is quite possible it was a mistake in words by Jonah or a lie put forth by Jonah. It is unfortunate RZ is being fingered as a liar when so little information available to us. In my opinion, Jonah's credibility is just as questionable. Yet it appears Jonah gets a free pass and blaming the dead woman is the theory being pushed with nonexistent facts. Is it too much to ask to get all sides of the story before pointing fingers? Shouldn't we hear from Jonah before calling RZ a liar? Would that not be fair and respectful?

 

[Betty P]

According to the search warrant

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41290.pdf

Det. Adkins states he was called to Rady by Dr. Peterson on June 14, after RZ's death. Dr. Peterson revealed that there was a pending
protective services report that was going to be filed by social worker Jessica Robershaw about Max's accident.

Dr. Peterson, head of ICU Trauma, not a neurologist, said that "over 4 days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai". Dr. Peterson claims that he didn't think the "visible injuries", e.g. large skull fracture, etc., were not consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling MS experienced. For that reason, Dr. Peterson felt MS was suffocated before the fall.

Really? Here's what I have a problem with:

The protective services report had not been filed 4 days after Max's accident

Dr. Peterson did not contact LE about his suspicions until 2 days after RZ's death

Dr. Peterson reached these conclusions and relayed them to LE w/o agreement from the other doctors/specialists caring for MS.

Dr. Peterson made these claims even though a battery of tests on MS revealed a great deal about the extent of his injuries and prognosis.

Why was Dr. Peterson, 4 days after the accident & 2 days after RZ's death, continuing to promote his suffocation theory, one that would be proven wrong?

Why did Dr. Peterson not discuss these concerns or have the social worker file the report w/in a day or 2 after MS's admission? Why wait until after the person targeted by the child abuse allegations (RZ) was already dead?

Did the other members of MS's team agree with Dr. Peterson's opinions?

 

[MyBelle]

This thread was created to discuss the CPR story/theories. What I find interesting is Dina's focus on whether or not RZ gave Max CPR. I understand what lies beneath her focus is the theory that RZ lied. RZ did not lie to the responding officers as it was stated in the EMS no CPR was given prior to arrival. Where the story of CPR begins after the EMS report is basically unknown except for what Nina has told us. However, if there was a lie, it did not influence the care Max received. Max did not die because CPR was not administered prior to the arrival of EMS. In my opinion, the whole CPR story is only being used to support theories that RZ was a liar. Until and if ever Jonah speaks, we do not know what RZ actually said to Jonah. It is quite possible it was a mistake in words by Jonah or a lie put forth by Jonah. It is unfortunate RZ is being fingered as a liar when so little information available to us. In my opinion, Jonah's credibility is just as questionable. Yet it appears Jonah gets a free pass and blaming the dead woman is the theory being pushed with nonexistent facts. Is it too much to ask to get all sides of the story before pointing fingers? Shouldn't we hear from Jonah before calling RZ a liar? Would that not be fair and respectful?

BBM. I disagree with you. I think Max's brain death was a direct result of no CPR being performed prior to the arrival of EMT's. The EMT report notes that they received little information and did not know when the injuries actually occurred.

JMO

 

[*Lash*]

I believe the search warrant was sealed because the ME had not finished his report. JS would have received a copy of the search warrant whether sealed or not.

The doctor expressed concerns about descriptions of the incident. Surely you do not believe he thought Max suffocated himself?

pg 5 beginning line 13


During the follow--during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.
Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the --the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall.

JMO

RBM - Dr. Peterson and Det. Adkins never use the words 'a person' suffocated Max prior to his fall. This leaves Dr. Peterson's words open for interpretation. There is also nothing in Max's autopsy report that states he had any ligature marks or any evidence of strangulation. And again, neither the doctor nor the detective make mention of whether CPR was performed on Max. No CPR prior to arrival was not a concern ever expressed to the detective by Dr. Peterson. However, Nina expressed in her interview this was a concern asked by Max's doctors. Yet it was not mentioned by Dr. Peterson when talking to detective Adkins.

 

[MyBelle]

RBM - Dr. Peterson and Det. Adkins never use the words 'a person' suffocated Max prior to his fall. This leaves Dr. Peterson's words open for interpretation. There is also nothing in Max's autopsy report that states he had any ligature marks or any evidence of strangulation. And again, neither the doctor nor the detective make mention of whether CPR was performed on Max. No CPR prior to arrival was not a concern ever expressed to the detective by Dr. Peterson. However, Nina expressed in her interview this was a concern asked by Max's doctors. Yet it was not mentioned by Dr. Peterson when talking to detective Adkins.

Det. Adkins did note that he was trained in criminal investigations, including child abuse. The warrant makes it clear that the doctor did have concerns about the description of the incident he received. Just because something isn't included in a report does not mean it wasn't discussed. Please keep in mind LE was told by RZ that the 9-1-1 call was made immediately after Max's fall.

I don't believe total brain death occurs in under five minutes.

JMO

 

[*Lash*]

MyBelle - I will agree with you that 'no CPR given prior to arrival' not being included in the search warrant does not necessarily mean it was not discussed between the two professionals. In my opinion, it is telling that it was not included and tends to support what the detective considered significant to include in the search warrant.

 

[Betty P]

Det. Adkins did note that he was trained in criminal investigations, including child abuse. The warrant makes it clear that the doctor did have concerns about the description of the incident he received. Just because something isn't included in a report does not mean it wasn't discussed. Please keep in mind LE was told by RZ that the 9-1-1 call was made immediately after Max's fall.

I don't believe total brain death occurs in under five minutes.

JMO

Why did it take Dr. Peterson 4 days to bring up his concerns to LE? Why did he not bring it up until after RZ was dead? What took so long.

As for MS's cause of death, the ME listed it as anoxic ischemic encephalopathy due to head injury and cervical spinal cord contusion. The ME specifically stated that the contusion to MS's spine caused his heart and lungs to stop. The EMT's were unable to restart his heart/circulation with CPR.

 

[Zinn]

This thread was created to discuss the CPR story/theories. What I find interesting is Dina's focus on whether or not RZ gave Max CPR. I understand what lies beneath her focus is the theory that RZ lied. RZ did not lie to the responding officers as it was stated in the EMS no CPR was given prior to arrival. Where the story of CPR begins after the EMS report is basically unknown except for what Nina has told us. However, if there was a lie, it did not influence the care Max received. Max did not die because CPR was not administered prior to the arrival of EMS. In my opinion, the whole CPR story is only being used to support theories that RZ was a liar. Until and if ever Jonah speaks, we do not know what RZ actually said to Jonah. It is quite possible it was a mistake in words by Jonah or a lie put forth by Jonah. It is unfortunate RZ is being fingered as a liar when so little information available to us. In my opinion, Jonah's credibility is just as questionable. Yet it appears Jonah gets a free pass and blaming the dead woman is the theory being pushed with nonexistent facts. Is it too much to ask to get all sides of the story before pointing fingers? Shouldn't we hear from Jonah before calling RZ a liar? Would that not be fair and respectful?

I agree with most of what you've said here. Where we differ, and where I feel I am likely in the minority of posters, is that I suspect Rebecca was murdered in an act of violence against both Rebecca and JS. I don't mean to minimize the fact that RZ lost her life in a brutal manner while JS was not physically harmed at all, but it's impossible for me to consider the scene of Rebecca's death and the message on the door without considering the intended audience (who I believe to be JS).

I agree that the whole CPR vs. rescue breaths thing may have transpired like the telephone game. And I agree that the terms used would not have changed the outcome for Max. But given the fact that nobody (on this thread, anyway) has validated the previously stated claims that Rebecca herself used the term "CPR," I think it's interesting to note NR stated several times that the source of the CPR information was JS. If I seem to be dwelling on this topic, it's because I feel the message painted on the door was likely a reflection of this conflict.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

MyBelle - I will agree with you that 'no CPR given prior to arrival' not being included in the search warrant does not necessarily mean it was not discussed between the two professionals. In my opinion, it is telling that it was not included and tends to support what the detective considered significant to include in his report.

It wasn't a report, it was a request for a search warrant in a child abuse investigation. Most important to show probable cause was the doctor's expert opinion that the description of the incident didn't match the injuries to the child.

JMO