Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death/ADAM SHACKNAI FOUND RESPONSIBLE #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
It is so hard to say without actually being there for everything the jury witnessed, but I didn't think the evidence against AS was there to convince a jury it was him, neither the circumstantial evidence of DNA or a fingerprint or a witness seeing him flee the main house, or direct evidence of someone witnessing the actual murder. It seemed the only provable argument was that he was on the same property as Rebecca that night. IMO the evidence did succeed in showing that Rebecca was more likely than not murdered, but I just struggled to find anything tying AS to the murder except lack of evidence of anyone else being there, which I did not think would convince a jury he was responsible. But there is so much evidence I didn't see or hear so my opinion is faulty to say the least.

It may not be considered "evidence," but surely the jury noticed many holes in AS testimony and deposition, including the 911 call and the many inconsistencies there. If I were a juror, this would cause me to question everything that he said and that was said about him, including that he wasn't that much of a knot expert. :rolleyes:

Or they could have responded to what wasn't there, i.e. ANY semblance of compassion for the victim or her family. He could easily have said something like, "I am so sorry this happened, she was such a lovely woman." But he never did to my knowledge. From what I gather he maintained his cavalier, cocky attitude.

Also what we didn't hear from AS on the witness stand was a denial. Did he ever speak the words "I did not do this?"
 
It is so hard to say without actually being there for everything the jury witnessed, but I didn't think the evidence against AS was there to convince a jury it was him, neither the circumstantial evidence of DNA or a fingerprint or a witness seeing him flee the main house, or direct evidence of someone witnessing the actual murder. It seemed the only provable argument was that he was on the same property as Rebecca that night. IMO the evidence did succeed in showing that Rebecca was more likely than not murdered, but I just struggled to find anything tying AS to the murder except lack of evidence of anyone else being there, which I did not think would convince a jury he was responsible. But there is so much evidence I didn't see or hear so my opinion is faulty to say the least.

I’m a SD local, and lived here throughout and before the case.

I was also in court and saw several of what I would view as critical days of testimony and evidence - I saw partial rope testimony ( primarily the cross examination by the defense), full testimony of the police DNA expert, police lead detective, the police SOC analyst re the rope measurements, Adam Shacknai testimony, DS testimony, XZ testimony, Cyril Wecht’s testimony, the ‘movement’ expert ( including cross examination on all these witnesses) and also the partial testimony of several other witnesses.

In my opinion, from the juries perspective during the testimony I saw, and the defenses effort to counter it, there was powerful, abundant evidence to convince them of liability ( as a layman I would just say guilt of murder)

Personally, if had to try to understand the three jurors who went against the plaintiff, I believe that the defense statements during closing argument that ‘circumstantial evidence is not evidence’ and ‘you can’t find him liable with no evidence and there is no DNA evidence’ type of statements...likely confused some of the jury, and as Mr Greer didn’t correct this, as he didn’t complete his planned final closing it likely raised doubts on their ability to find him liable.

The judge won’t interrupt or counter an closing argument unless there is an objection I understand?

Mr Greer was scribbling furtively, 12 pages he has said, and he never delivered his final close to address these issues.

IMO it may have cost him three jurors...

However, it didn’t matter. Justice was delivered in the plaintiffs favor in the verdict.

As for Gore and his reputation and that of the Sheriffs dept, I was completely and utterly shocked at what I heard about how the investigation was handled in the trial. There was never any inkling of wrong doing or failure of investigative techniques covered in the press.

In fact I recall there were lots of press conferences and videos of knot tying put out by the police, ( those videos were on the evening news!) and even a whole section on the sheriffs website showing what a great job they had done...the press never covered any negatives on Gore or his investigation that I saw ( and I was interested and I read and watched what was available at the time)

To hear the testimony at trial re the failures to test, collect and process certain evidence was jaw dropping, especially in light of what was in the public arena, it bore no similarity to what the local public had been fed by the the media.

So, as a local, I would have to disagree with your ( earlier posts) premise that the jury may have had bias because of aspects the sheriffs reputation.

Also, being in court for several days and seeing testimony, It’s very clear to me on how they reached the verdict. There was a lot of evidence that proved the plaintiffs case, and I saw it myself.

I also have no connection to law enforcement or attorneys or anything similar, I’m just a regular person, like the people on the jury.

Just my opinion....
 
IDK I mean it could have been a non-family member, other people were told about the accident. And it could have been any stronger person with that slant in their writing. A lot of people masturbate daily. Climbing on the table may have been out of shock or panic, people don't think logically when they walk upon a body. I still don't see any evidence that it was AS. I'm not saying all this to say what I personally believe happened but just trying to be neutral minded like how jurors are instructed to be and think if it's more likely than not that it was AS versus anyone else. Coincidences aren't the same as circumstantial evidence. AS comes off as an egotistical jerk and liar, but that doesn't mean there's evidence he did this. I was just surprised the 9/12 threshold was met. Don't get me wrong I am not juror bashing at all, I have faith in them and that they came to their conclusions fairly, within the confines of the law, and I hope it is upheld on appeal. I am thrilled to see this justice for Rebecca!
I don't agree that discounting the nuances of the evidence is being neutral minded.

It's not just who else might have heard about the accident, it's knowing Max was still alive at that time that night when the message was painted, and knowing that Rebecca was alone in the mansion, and knowing that Jonah would not return to his home at any moment to disturb him while he carried out this prolonged assault and staging, and relating the accident to her murder in a message, and writing in capitals in their usual style, and finding the paint supplies in a room above, and a rope in the garage, and knives in the kitchen, not bringing murder tools with them, knowing where to hang her so that no one would observe, leaving no signs of forced entry, not leaving her strangled in the house but sticking around to attempt to stage a suicide, and not worrying about disturbing the guest in the guest house with screams.

I think we both know that the issue is not about thinking masturbating is abnormal. It's questioning the truthfulness of his admission and the likelihood of his admission when a sex attack has taken place that he supposedly knows nothing about.

The knots?

Climbing on a table and shock does not account for lies to emergency dispatch about an impossible feat requiring three hands.

That doesn't even touch on the DNA that was missing from the morning "discovery" and his alleged CPR. The random murderer would also have to be a non-shedder like Adam.

Anyway, happy to disagree on this.
 
It is so hard to say without actually being there for everything the jury witnessed, but I didn't think the evidence against AS was there to convince a jury it was him, neither the circumstantial evidence of DNA or a fingerprint or a witness seeing him flee the main house, or direct evidence of someone witnessing the actual murder. It seemed the only provable argument was that he was on the same property as Rebecca that night. IMO the evidence did succeed in showing that Rebecca was more likely than not murdered, but I just struggled to find anything tying AS to the murder except lack of evidence of anyone else being there, which I did not think would convince a jury he was responsible. But there is so much evidence I didn't see or hear so my opinion is faulty to say the least.

you make good points. Greer had stated on Tricia's podcast and in his closing to the jury, that the message on the door "She saved him, can you save her", clearly points out that rebecca saved max using cpr initially, and only a small number of people had any knowledge of this at the time. DS, JS, NR and Adam. The other 3 had alibis, and Adam was actually on the property. He made the point that the likelihood of this being done by an outsider was unlikely because of this message. I really believe that if this message had not been painted, that the verdict might have turned out differently. This message is what connects rebeccas incident to max's incident. I would think that this would resonate with the jury.
 
When Greer was last on Tricia's podcast, he had stated that the attorney's were going to be able to speak to the jury, and he was interested in talking with those three jurors, he speculated that perhaps they thought it was murder but perhaps only used the physical evidence and the lack of dna couldn't connect this to Adam. He said something to the effect that some jurors get stuck on just dna etc. He said that he would speak to tricia again sometime after he had spoken to the jury. Does anyone know if or when Tricia will interview him again? I know he has to be exhausted and need a break from all this, but selfishly I am curious to hear what these other jurors thought process was.
 
Re previous posters question -

Mannequin - Appeal potential

Snippet from my previous posted link - re CALIFORNIA based appeal court rulings - ( this mannequin was used in evidence and ALSO allowed in the jury room, not only as a mere ‘demonstrative’ as in this case)


L. Use of Life-size Mannequin

[26] Defendant contends the court erred in permitting the prosecutor to use a life-size mannequin, with a wooden probe sticking through it, to [11 Cal.4th 754] represent the trajectory of the bullet that killed Craig Martin.

The mannequin, along with most of the other exhibits, was present in the jury room during deliberations during both the guilt and penalty phases of trial. In defendant's view, the mannequin both lacked probative value and was "highly prejudicial."

We disagree.

The mannequin was used by the prosecutor to demonstrate the likelihood that Martin was in a kneeling position when shot, i.e., that he was executed. Thus, the mannequin was relevant to show defendant's intent to kill, as well as his identity as the same person who executed victims Ariza and Metal.

We have upheld similar use of mannequins in prior cases, including Medina I, supra, 51 Cal.3d at pages 898-899. (See also People v. Cummings (1993) 4 Cal.4th 1233, 1291 [18 Cal.Rptr.2d 796, 850 P.2d 1] ["Mannequins may be used as illustrative evidence to assist the jury in understanding the testimony of witnesses or to clarify the circumstances of a crime."]; People v. Brown (1988) 46 Cal.3d 432, 442-443 [250 Cal.Rptr. 604, 758 P.2d 1135].)

As for potential prejudice, we find no basis for concluding the trial court abused its discretion in admitting the evidence and allowing its presence in the jury room.

As we said in Medina I, supra, 51 Cal.3d at page 899, "[t]he trial court was in a far better position than we to assess the potential prejudice arising from the display of such physical evidence...."




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Re previous posters question -

Mannequin - Appeal potential

Snippet from my previous posted link - re CALIFORNIA based appeal court rulings - ( this mannequin was used in evidence and ALSO allowed in the jury room, not only as a mere ‘demonstrative’ as in this case)


L. Use of Life-size Mannequin

[26] Defendant contends the court erred in permitting the prosecutor to use a life-size mannequin, with a wooden probe sticking through it, to [11 Cal.4th 754] represent the trajectory of the bullet that killed Craig Martin.

The mannequin, along with most of the other exhibits, was present in the jury room during deliberations during both the guilt and penalty phases of trial. In defendant's view, the mannequin both lacked probative value and was "highly prejudicial."

We disagree.

The mannequin was used by the prosecutor to demonstrate the likelihood that Martin was in a kneeling position when shot, i.e., that he was executed. Thus, the mannequin was relevant to show defendant's intent to kill, as well as his identity as the same person who executed victims Ariza and Metal.

We have upheld similar use of mannequins in prior cases, including Medina I, supra, 51 Cal.3d at pages 898-899. (See also People v. Cummings (1993) 4 Cal.4th 1233, 1291 [18 Cal.Rptr.2d 796, 850 P.2d 1] ["Mannequins may be used as illustrative evidence to assist the jury in understanding the testimony of witnesses or to clarify the circumstances of a crime."]; People v. Brown (1988) 46 Cal.3d 432, 442-443 [250 Cal.Rptr. 604, 758 P.2d 1135].)

As for potential prejudice, we find no basis for concluding the trial court abused its discretion in admitting the evidence and allowing its presence in the jury room.

As we said in Medina I, supra, 51 Cal.3d at page 899, "[t]he trial court was in a far better position than we to assess the potential prejudice arising from the display of such physical evidence...."




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Greer did state on Tricia's podcast that he is very sure there will be an appeal, that he researched these attorney's and that they appeal and fight till the death. that there are a few things that might be appealable with the 1penny part of the lawsuit, I don't recall what, something about procedural court stuff. (lol! apologies for my ignorance of law jargon!) But he said that he is extremely confident with Pari's 5 mil verdict, that his case was tight, and he see's no way this part of the case will be turned over, which I believe was the Wrongful Death aspect of the case.
 
IDK I mean it could have been a non-family member, other people were told about the accident. And it could have been any stronger person with that slant in their writing. A lot of people masturbate daily. Climbing on the table may have been out of shock or panic, people don't think logically when they walk upon a body. I still don't see any evidence that it was AS. I'm not saying all this to say what I personally believe happened but just trying to be neutral minded like how jurors are instructed to be and think if it's more likely than not that it was AS versus anyone else. Coincidences aren't the same as circumstantial evidence. AS comes off as an egotistical jerk and liar, but that doesn't mean there's evidence he did this. I was just surprised the 9/12 threshold was met. Don't get me wrong I am not juror bashing at all, I have faith in them and that they came to their conclusions fairly, within the confines of the law, and I hope it is upheld on appeal. I am thrilled to see this justice for Rebecca!

SB, you and I worked together very closely for several months behind the scenes on another case, so I think I know you pretty well and can vouch for your fair-minded approach...even when it’s not popular. :)

I think you make some good points. I wasn’t sure how the jury would see what had been presented by the plaintiff, and I thought the verdict could go either way. Although, like you, I think the jury came to their decisions fairly, I did not think it was a slam-dunk. I was pleasantly surprised at the verdict, as I’m sure the defense and AS were UNpleasantly surprised.

I just want to remind everyone that you are coming at this from the point of view of an attorney who handles wrongful death suits for plaintiffs. You would want to make sure to dot every “i” and cross every “t” for your client, if possible, even if you “know” in your gut the defendant is guilty. I think Mr Greer did well with what he had to work with and also what he didn’t have available (DNA, witnesses, etc), but he had to be fully aware of the points you mention that a jury could debate. I’m sure he breathed a sigh of relief at the verdict, especially since his rebuttal was lacking 12 pages! As an aside, if the Zahaus has lost, they might have been pretty upset about that! But that’s water over the bridge.

Anyway, just weighing in as someone who knows who you are and understands where you’re coming from. :)
 
SB, you and I worked together very closely for several months behind the scenes on another case, so I think I know you pretty well and can vouch for your fair-minded approach...even when it’s not popular. :)

I think you make some good points. I wasn’t sure how the jury would see what had been presented by the plaintiff, and I thought the verdict could go either way. Although, like you, I think the jury came to their decisions fairly, I did not think it was a slam-dunk. I was pleasantly surprised at the verdict, as I’m sure the defense and AS were UNpleasantly surprised.

I just want to remind everyone that you are coming at this from the point of view of an attorney who handles wrongful death suits for plaintiffs. You would want to make sure to dot every “i” and cross every “t” for your client, if possible, even if you “know” in your gut the defendant is guilty. I think Mr Greer did well with what he had to work with and also what he didn’t have available (DNA, witnesses, etc), but he had to be fully aware of the points you mention that a jury could debate. I’m sure he breathed a sigh of relief at the verdict, especially since his rebuttal was lacking 12 pages! As an aside, if the Zahaus has lost, they might have been pretty upset about that! But that’s water over the bridge.

Anyway, just weighing in as someone who knows who you are and understands where you’re coming from. :)


I also agree to these points, and was very nervous about the verdict. So I hope my response didn't come off the wrong way. I just think that the painted message is what tied it all together pointing at the likelihood that adam was responsible for this, might've been the thing that made the jury come to it's final verdict.

I really appreciate reading other's point of view, even if i don't agree because it adds a diverse point of view. Healthy dialogue is the key though.:crazy::
 
I am very confused about the voicemail aspect of this case and am wondering if someone with more knowledge about these types of trial can make me understand more clearly.

I am confused to why this voicemail was allowed to be a part of this trial. Is there cell phone records proving that Jonah actually left the voicemail? I recall that Rebecca phone records indicated that she had checked her voicemail for 2 minutes around midnight. Couldn't she have just been checking voicemails from earlier that day? The voicemail was never retrieved, so there is no recording of it's content. It's only Jonah's account of what he says was left on the voicemail. With no evidence of it's content, why was it allowed to be discussed in court?

Also, if this was a criminal trial, would the voicemail be allowed in court?
 
I am very confused about the voicemail aspect of this case and am wondering if someone with more knowledge about these types of trial can make me understand more clearly.

I am confused to why this voicemail was allowed to be a part of this trial. Is there cell phone records proving that Jonah actually left the voicemail? I recall that Rebecca phone records indicated that she had checked her voicemail for 2 minutes around midnight. Couldn't she have just been checking voicemails from earlier that day? The voicemail was never retrieved, so there is no recording of it's content. It's only Jonah's account of what he says was left on the voicemail. With no evidence of it's content, why was it allowed to be discussed in court?

Also, if this was a criminal trial, would the voicemail be allowed in court?

Hi Brit, one of the attorneys will have to answer the legal aspect of your question, but the voicemail was discussed in the trial, or rather JS testimony to what it was. Only his testimony on what he said he said, was allowed.

The timings and durations of the calls as registered on RZ phone bill was also allowed.

The defense attempted to get the lead detectives testimony to show what the message contained, but it was disallowed by the Judge as hearsay ( and as facts not in evidence I seem to recall too)

What did come out in testimony was an admission from the the lead detective ( questioned by Greer) that the investigators were heavily basing the main suicide theory on a voicemail they had never heard, and also had failed to retrieve, and only what JS claimed was in the message he left.

He ( Greer ) also highlighted the fact that the voice message content as described by JS was inconsistent with the doctors and DS evidence that they had not been told of the seriousness of Max’s condition at the time.

Hope this is helpful.


Just my opinion....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Hi Brit, one of the attorneys will have to answer the legal aspect of your question, but the voicemail was discussed in the trial, or rather JS testimony to what it was. Only his testimony on what he said he said, was allowed.

The timings and durations of the calls as registered on RZ phone bill was also allowed.

The defense attempted to get the lead detectives testimony to show what the message contained, but it was disallowed by the Judge as hearsay ( and as facts not in evidence I seem to recall too)

What did come out in testimony was an admission from the the lead detective ( questioned by Greer) that the investigators were heavily basing the main suicide theory on a voicemail they had never heard, and also had failed to retrieve, and only what JS claimed was in the message he left.

He ( Greer ) also highlighted the fact that the voice message content as described by JS was inconsistent with the doctors and DS evidence that they had not been told of the seriousness of Max’s condition at the time.

Hope this is helpful.


Just my opinion....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks for the clarity on this. I wasn't able to see all testimony, just what was livestreamed. It's frustrating when only certain parts of trial are televised.....I am glad that greer could make the points he did regarding the voicemail.
 
I've noticed that a number of posts discussing the missing, unaccounted for piece of throat appear to have been deleted. What am I missing? This appears to be a fact that that part of the throat is no longer in evidence or buried with Rebecca. It seems reasonable to ask the question, where did it go? Some of the fabulous posters here confirmed that it is uncommon in an autopsy to dispose of this body part.

The most concerning thing is that the autopsy was conducted at a time when LE was still considering Rebecca's death a murder. And, she was found with a gag and a noose tied around her neck. Why in the world would this crucial piece of evidence be disposed of. Was Greer able to find out what happened? IMO, it should be in evidence and closer inspection could be used to help re-open the case.

I might be naive, but I don't think this is violating the TO. Why would these posts be deleted?
 
I've noticed that a number of posts discussing the missing, unaccounted for piece of throat appear to have been deleted. What am I missing? This appears to be a fact that that part of the throat is no longer in evidence or buried with Rebecca. It seems reasonable to ask the question, where did it go? Some of the fabulous posters here confirmed that it is uncommon in an autopsy to dispose of this body part.

The most concerning thing is that the autopsy was conducted at a time when LE was still considering Rebecca's death a murder. And, she was found with a gag and a noose tied around her neck. Why in the world would this crucial piece of evidence be disposed of. Was Greer able to find out what happened? IMO, it should be in evidence and closer inspection could be used to help re-open the case.

I might be naive, but I don't think this is violating the TO. Why would these posts be deleted?

It is actually against TOS to question moderation of the thread ON the thread. It is to be done via PM or email to a Mod or Admin.

In this case, I will answer your question on the thread so that all members are aware of why such posts were unapproved:

The posts that were unapproved were those that, in addition to discussing the removal of the throat, contained insinuations or accusations of collusion (which posts are NOT allowed).

 


It is actually against TOS to question moderation of the thread ON the thread. It is to be done via PM or email to a Mod or Admin.

In this case, I will answer your question on the thread so that all members are aware of why such posts were unapproved:

The posts that were unapproved were those that, in addition to discussing the removal of the throat, contained insinuations or accusations of collusion (which posts are NOT allowed).


Wasn't discussing 'removal of throat', was discussing the finding of lack of the esophagus and no notation about it at all.

Then was wondering why it could/would be. (No notation)

Sleuthing.

This is what this board is all about ? Correct???
 
I've noticed that a number of posts discussing the missing, unaccounted for piece of throat appear to have been deleted. What am I missing? This appears to be a fact that that part of the throat is no longer in evidence or buried with Rebecca. It seems reasonable to ask the question, where did it go? Some of the fabulous posters here confirmed that it is uncommon in an autopsy to dispose of this body part.

The most concerning thing is that the autopsy was conducted at a time when LE was still considering Rebecca's death a murder. And, she was found with a gag and a noose tied around her neck. Why in the world would this crucial piece of evidence be disposed of. Was Greer able to find out what happened? IMO, it should be in evidence and closer inspection could be used to help re-open the case.

I might be naive, but I don't think this is violating the TO. Why would these posts be deleted?

You are not naive

:yourock:
 
When Greer was last on Tricia's podcast, he had stated that the attorney's were going to be able to speak to the jury, and he was interested in talking with those three jurors, he speculated that perhaps they thought it was murder but perhaps only used the physical evidence and the lack of dna couldn't connect this to Adam. He said something to the effect that some jurors get stuck on just dna etc. He said that he would speak to tricia again sometime after he had spoken to the jury. Does anyone know if or when Tricia will interview him again? I know he has to be exhausted and need a break from all this, but selfishly I am curious to hear what these other jurors thought process was.

Well, I do doubt very much the three jurors phones weren't ringing off the hook when they walked in their doors !!!

:rolling::rolling::rolling:
 
I don't agree that discounting the nuances of the evidence is being neutral minded.

It's not just who else might have heard about the accident, it's knowing Max was still alive at that time that night when the message was painted, and knowing that Rebecca was alone in the mansion, and knowing that Jonah would not return to his home at any moment to disturb him while he carried out this prolonged assault and staging, and relating the accident to her murder in a message, and writing in capitals in their usual style, and finding the paint supplies in a room above, and a rope in the garage, and knives in the kitchen, not bringing murder tools with them, knowing where to hang her so that no one would observe, leaving no signs of forced entry, not leaving her strangled in the house but sticking around to attempt to stage a suicide, and not worrying about disturbing the guest in the guest house with screams.

I think we both know that the issue is not about thinking masturbating is abnormal. It's questioning the truthfulness of his admission and the likelihood of his admission when a sex attack has taken place that he supposedly knows nothing about.

The knots?

Climbing on a table and shock does not account for lies to emergency dispatch about an impossible feat requiring three hands.

That doesn't even touch on the DNA that was missing from the morning "discovery" and his alleged CPR. The random murderer would also have to be a non-shedder like Adam.

Anyway, happy to disagree on this.

The bold and underline

Yes, THIS !!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
69
Guests online
3,988
Total visitors
4,057

Forum statistics

Threads
593,186
Messages
17,982,166
Members
229,050
Latest member
utahtruecrimepod
Back
Top