Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[BBL]

While I want to know what Mr. Greer's going to say Monday to bring this home, I'm thinking it probably isn't smart for him to lay it out to us. Given that I think he is brilliant, I'm sure he's on top of that

Please let him know that many in Coronado are sending him warm and powerful vibes on Monday!

 

[Imp]

BBM. Well, according to your window of time for movability, she was in the last hour of movability which to me seems pretty darn close to stiff (I apologize for how awful this is to talk about as it pains me). With those who have experience with this, my question would be this:

If Rebecca had allegedly been hanging for those seven hours or so, and Adam placing her on the ground approximately one hour before being entirely stiff, would her body have been so flexible at that point to bend that much simply by placing her on the ground? I interpret the timeline of rigidity as being progressive - that you can't look at it as segments/phases of time. I don't think I have expressed myself very well here.

And could Adam have been trying to exert force on her body during the grunts in the call to try to straighten out her body once it occurred to him that her posture didn't indicate a straight hanging?

I apologize to all for this graphic discussion and if it is too much please delete it.

No worries about being graphic. It's difficult to discuss many aspects of this case without saying cringe-worthy things. If Tugboat Captain AS had performed CPR on "Becca," I would think she'd be flat on her back, wouldn't you? Imo, nothing about her position on the grass indicates she was cut down from a dead drop hang (without hogtie) of many hours, or that anyone attempted Tugboat Captain-level CPR on her.

 

[justice be served]

To Greer:

It is my understanding that the split verdict suggestion initially came from the Judge? If that is the case, why do you think, if she did, that she ended up not allowing it? Hopefully this is correct on my part.

Should the jury rule on the side of the plaintiff, does that ruling (along with all of the evidence that supported that ruling) offer up a precedence for reopening the suicide findings and eventually pursue the case criminally?

 

[coastal]

Questions for Mr Greer:

Was Adam familiar enough with Jonah's boating equipment to know that he had a tow rope, and where to find it? Did Adam ever join the family on boat excursions, especially when the inner-tube was used?
Has Jonah ever apologized to Rebecca's family for leaving that terrible message the night she died?
Did Adam view the *advertiser censored* on his phone by way of a wi-fi connection at Jonah's house?
Will the jury hear about Nina's settlement with Rebecca's family, or the $ amount paid by Nina's insurance policy?
What do you think of the media coverage of the trial, so far?

 

[justice be served]

Thanks so much Lash...


So, the lead detective testified at trial the photographs were taken around 10 am to my best recollection.

...the ME arrived much later as evidenced in the reports.

But the photographs show deep lividity on the sides of the legs while RZ is situated on the grass...plus, the shadowing on the photographs of the body appears to be consistent with the sun position for late morning...

If lividity is already strong and fixed on the sides of the legs, with blanching from the ground at 10am, she would need to have been on the grass for some substantial time, wouldn’t she?

but AS said he cut her down at 6.45am...

We are all assuming the photographs were taken at the same time as the ME arrived, late in the day, but that is apparently not the case from the evidence presented IMO.

Thoughts?

(PS - off point - Why does the medical examiners investigative report ( page 1) say RZ was last seen alive at 21.50? AS testified he went to bed much earlier...am I missing something?)


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Oh, wow, Lezah. Again, you have ferreted out another inconsistency that appears to be jarring. I would love to hear an answer to this one! And I think you should become a criminal investigator because you're good!

 

[justice be served]

I am hoping that the media will be balanced at least this time and record both Keith Greer's closing argument as well as the defense. It seems that the media coverage has been slanted until now on mostly broadcasting the defense - not entirely so but enough that it is obvious.

 

[stmarysmead]

Questions for Mr Greer:

Was Adam familiar enough with Jonah's boating equipment to know that he had a tow rope, and where to find it? Did Adam ever join the family on boat excursions, especially when the inner-tube was used?
Has Jonah ever apologized to Rebecca's family for leaving that terrible message the night she died?
Did Adam view the *advertiser censored* on his phone by way of a wi-fi connection at Jonah's house?
Will the jury hear about Nina's settlement with Rebecca's family, or the $ amount paid by Nina's insurance policy?
What do you think of the media coverage of the trial, so far?

What horrible message did JS leave? I thought he even paid for the funeral!

 

[Morag]

Here’s a well-written explanation of evidentiary standards for civil trials:

https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/evidentiary-standards-burdens-proof/

 

[Tortoise]

Question for Mr Greer if I'm not too late, and if he can answer it;

What is the "evidentiary value of the death certificate and autopsy report" contained in the defendant's Special Jury Instructions?

 

[Lilibet]

While I understand those who have laid out in detail the pressure Rebecca may have been feeling and how she dealt with pressure in the past, I keep coming back to the complicated way she died. She had access to the ocean, the bridge and perhaps medications if she felt the need to “escape” what might befall her...criminal or civil blame for Max’s fall, losing Jonah, etc. She could have hung herself easily in a closet in a kneeling position.

It doesn’t seem reasonable to me that under extreme emotional pressure she would contrive and execute such a complicated suicide...naked, feet bound, hands bound behind her back, shirt stuffed in her mouth, the cryptic message painted on the door, hanging outdoors in such a disturbing way. Her possible instability and impulsiveness doesn’t explain all this to me. As I’ve said before, I never say “never,” but the whole picture says “murder” to me, and has from the beginning. Other evidence more recently revealed adds to my conviction, but isn’t needed. Talk of who called or texted when and why has no bearing on my opinion.

It is the fact of a young woman hanging bound and naked from an outdoor balcony that says murder IMO. For me to convince myself that it’s suicide involves mental gymnastics I’m not able to accomplish.
JMO

 

[Imp]

Oh, wow, Lezah. Again, you have ferreted out another inconsistency that appears to be jarring. I would love to hear an answer to this one! And I think you should become a criminal investigator because you're good!

I just reread Lezah's post and a bit of the AR, and had sort of an aha. In the AR, Lucas writes (BBM): "At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for decedent's position."

I wonder if RZ's body wasn't left in that position for 12+ hours to insure this was the case? In other words, what would be the *appropriate* rigor and livor mortis if she had just been cut down from a hanging position of many hours? If things happened as AS claims, and if the ME had arrived immediately (which, by the way, is the standard, I think, in suspicious deaths), the livor mortis (or lividity - I don't know these terms very well) would not be posterior, would it? So was this the primary reason for leaving her on the grass all day? To cover for the fact that she had actually been lying on the grass for hours at the time of the 911 call vs. hanging for hours?

Or am I just massively confused?

 

[elfie]

Mr Greer is going to call me in about an hour so now is the time if you have any questions for him.

Hello, Tricia!

Please ask Mr. Greer if the jury was made aware of the defense's change of schedule with Lucas testimony.

Also, is the nighttime photo of the balcony railing in evidence? Thank you!

 

[justice be served]

It is the fact of a young woman hanging bound and naked from an outdoor balcony that says murder IMO. For me to convince myself that it’s suicide involves mental gymnastics I’m not able to accomplish.
JMO

Snipped for emphasis and BBM. This one sentence says it all. Well done.

 

[elfie]

BBM. Well, according to your window of time for movability, she was in the last hour of movability which to me seems pretty darn close to stiff (I apologize for how awful this is to talk about as it pains me). With those who have experience with this, my question would be this:

If Rebecca had allegedly been hanging for those seven hours or so, and Adam placing her on the ground approximately one hour before being entirely stiff, would her body have been so flexible at that point to bend that much simply by placing her on the ground? I interpret the timeline of rigidity as being progressive - that you can't look at it as segments/phases of time. I don't think I have expressed myself very well here.

And could Adam have been trying to exert force on her body during the grunts in the call to try to straighten out her body once it occurred to him that her posture didn't indicate a straight hanging?

I apologize to all for this graphic discussion and if it is too much please delete it.

EMT's called off CPR because of the rigor in her jaw.

 

[justice be served]

I just reread Lezah's post and a bit of the AR, and had sort of an aha. In the AR, Lucas writes (BBM): "At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for decedent's position."

I wonder if RZ's body wasn't left in that position for 12+ hours to insure this was the case? In other words, what would be the *appropriate* rigor and livor mortis if she had just been cut down from a hanging position of many hours? If things happened as AS claims, and if the ME had arrived immediately (which, by the way, is the standard, I think, in suspicious deaths), the livor mortis (or lividity - I don't know these terms very well) would not be posterior, would it? So was this the primary reason for leaving her on the grass all day? To cover for the fact that she had actually been lying on the grass for hours at the time of the 911 call vs. hanging for hours?

Or am I just massively confused?

OMG. Well that explains the delay. Brilliant!

 

[elfie]

From court 3.16.18 - Greer questioning lead Det. Tsuida, no mention of Asian background. She could not explain why the balcony door had a huge dry patch around the door jam and handle, there was actually a photo. Can we please,please see this photo?



Second mention of wiping down where the expert agreed:

Thank you, Lash!

 

[elfie]

Another couple observations I have that are hopefully not lost on the jury.

Rebecca was *actually* interviewed by a psych specialist at the time of Max's accident. That person testified in court that there were no concerns about Rebecca's words or demeanor, feelings, suicidal warning signs, etc. That individual is an expert in CRISIS psychology, and was called to ride along to the scene, IIRC.

The psych specialist who testified for the defense never met Rebecca, never spoke to her, or her family, or friends. And presumably also never spoke to the crisis psych specialist who *actually* spoke to Rebecca hours before her death. This defense psych expert offered "squishy psych" opinions about remote, heresay, and second hand information as if they were as factual as a lab result.

An actual medical examiner who conducted an actual autopsy of Rebecca testified for the plaintiffs, and discussed and defended his work and his opinions in this case.

A medical examiner from 1000+ miles away who never worked in California, or San Diego, who did not work with Dr. J. Lucas, who never conducted any autopsy or tissue exams of Rebecca, testified *about* the autopsy report done by J. Lucas, for the defense. He could not testify ABOUT the autopsy-- he testified about the REPORT prepared by J.Lucas. And J. Lucas did not testify at all.

Unless the jury was told J.Lucas wasn't available, and no one else from the SD ME's office was available, or that the ME who did the autopsy is dead or something, the jury should *wonder* about that. Why did the defense call this ME to talk about someone else's autopsy report?? Why didn't the author show up and discuss his work? (I think we all know the answers to that, but I hope the jury is inquisitive and thoughtful.)

Thank you, K_Z!

 

[Myvice]

I would like to thank Mr. Greer as well and I don't have questions but I would like to tell Mr. Greer if he has time, to look at KZ's last few posts. She had some very interesting takes on things.

 

[Myvice]

Sorry Elfie! I had the same thoughts! I type with 2 fingers so I'm slow LOL>

 

[Imp]

I just reread Lezah's post and a bit of the AR, and had sort of an aha. In the AR, Lucas writes (BBM): "At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for decedent's position."

I wonder if RZ's body wasn't left in that position for 12+ hours to insure this was the case? In other words, what would be the *appropriate* rigor and livor mortis if she had just been cut down from a hanging position of many hours? If things happened as AS claims, and if the ME had arrived immediately (which, by the way, is the standard, I think, in suspicious deaths), the livor mortis (or lividity - I don't know these terms very well) would not be posterior, would it? So was this the primary reason for leaving her on the grass all day? To cover for the fact that she had actually been lying on the grass for hours at the time of the 911 call vs. hanging for hours?

Or am I just massively confused?

Quoting myself to see if I can explain this better or in a different way.

Let's assume for the sake of argument AS's version of events is correct. He emerges from the guest house 6:30am-ish, sees RZ hanging, cuts her down and calls 911. Now let's say the ME arrives within an hour or so of the 911 call to investigate this suspicious-as-homicide death, and finds RZ on the ground after being cut down from hanging from the balcony for 6 to 8 hours. Where would there be lividity in her hours-dead body that had been hanging straight down? It would be in her lower legs and feet, I think.

What if the co-conspirators knew that's not what the ME would find if he arrived shortly after the 911 call and LE's arrival, because RZ had been hogtied at some point and had been in the position on the grass for most of those 6 to 8 hours?

How to cover that up? Leave her in that position for another 12 hours so the ME can write in his AR that "Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for decedent's position."