Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[Betty P]

I agree. It’s two set of competing and conflicting experts. This is why I’m betting on appeals from either losing side and much more time for us all to discuss this case.

Actually, its a lot of evidence that points to murder. Not opinions, but evidence. JMO, the jurors already realize Rebecca was murdered, the evidence was substantial.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree. It’s two set of competing and conflicting experts. This is why I’m betting on appeals from either losing side and much more time for us all to discuss this case.

If it is true that the Judge has said the verdict must be unanimous, to me that is an indication she won't allow an appeal if the Plaintiff loses. This case went through several re-filings before she accepted it for trial. After years of being accused on television and in social media, two respondents were dropped. The promise was made that there is new evidence. I can't find any new evidence against Adam which proves his liability.

I think she will issue her own direct verdict so that this case is over. We shall see. Tomorrow will be here soon enough.

 

[stmarysmead]

Actually, its a lot of evidence that points to murder. Not opinions, but evidence. JMO, the jurors already realize Rebecca was murdered, the evidence was substantial.

But there is not one speck of trace evidence or one fingerprint of AS on the scene. Can you show me one other case, active or inactive, where a+killer was able to remove all trace evidence and fingerprints of just himself and leave the victim’s dna and fingerprints undisturbed.

Just one case!

 

[kittychi]

The underwear was not uncollected. In Ann Rule’s Two Strange Deaths in Coronado, page 224:



Jonah’s teenage daughter had a sleepover in the guest house sometime shortly before Adam arrived. No one was expected to stay there that week, AFAIK. Max’s accident was not a planned event. Adam coming was not a planned event. Should Rebecca have stopped everything she was doing on Tuesday to clean a room no one was even going to stay in (Adam was in the other room)? Should Jonah have thought to call a maid while he was worrying over his horribly injured son at Radys?

The panties may have been one of the other girls that spent the night. They may have not been “nasty”, but just a hole in them. Jonah’s daughter may have not even know they were there.

The police know who’s they were and they were not Rebeccas. That’s really all that is important. IMO

BBM: IMO there are a lot of "may have's" in these posts from those who believe Rebecca committed suicide. The panties "may have" ________, the knife "may have" ________, the gloves "may have" ________, the rope "may have" ______, the painting of the door "may have" ________ , etc.

Just noticing.

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM: IMO there are a lot of "may have's" in these posts from those who believe Rebecca committed suicide. The panties "may have" ________, the knife "may have" ________, the gloves "may have" ________, the rope "may have" ______, the painting of the door "may have" ________ , etc.

Just noticing.

To be fair...the biggest “may have” on the murder side is a HUGE one...there “may have” been dna or fingerprints.

But not one bit of trace evidence of AS exists.

 

[kittychi]

Yes, an expert who actually observed Rebecca the day before she was killed said she did not appear unduly stressed or at risk of suicide. That carries much more weight than someone who had never met her, never spoke to her and had very little on which to base his opinion.

At it's worst, armchair psychiatry is an invasion of medical privacy.

BBM: I wish Greer could get that testimony thrown out. Seems unethical as heck. Defense should be embarrassed to have had to use it.

 

[MyBelle]

As I mentioned at the link above, Ann Rule reported in her book that it was Pfingst who contacted Adam. It seems pretty unlikely the Romano family would involve themselves in trying to clear Adam.

My post was in response to your claim that there were only two families with reason to retain Pfingst. There were three and Nina Romano admitted to LE she had visited the home the night before. It is your baseless speculation the Romano would not be likely to try to clear Adam. Because of Max's critical condition, I do believe the two families had a strong bond.

 

[Jessica2012]

Link? TIA. The only reason they likely made such a comment was to counter the SDSO claim that RZ committed suicide. In fact, LE's own expert who rode along that day to meet with RZ after Max's accident said she was not suicidal. Of course, early on in the investigation, the Zahaus didn't have access to that information. It took them quite a while to even get SDSO to return Rebecca's personal possessions.

For the link for the Zahaus and Bremner upset that a psychological assessment wasn’t done, you can go back and read the early threads. Many here were discussing that and there are media links to articles. But I will try to find that for you as well.

As for the woman who rode along, she was not working for the SDSO. She was not working at all.

Also taking the stand Monday was a counselor who happened to be with a Coronado police officer on the day that Max fell, and they went to the home.

The counselor is a member of the county’s Psychiactric Emergency Reponse Team, and was on a ride-along that day. She was not working in that capacity when they went to the Spreckles mansion, she testified.

When they arrived, Max had already been rushed to a hospital. The counselor, Karen Hancock, spent an hour and a half to two hours talking with Zahau. They were together at the hospital where the 6-year-old had been rushed, then Hancock returned with her to Shacknai’s father’s home, she testified Monday.

Hancock said Zahau was not tearful, but she was visibly upset.

“She was shaking most of the time,” Hancock said.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-day3-20180305-story.html


This is the second time I have posted this quote and link.

 

[Red Cross Jan]

If a child had a fatal accident while in my care, I'd be devastated by guilt and grief. I think that would be a normal reaction, but have no link to back that up.

 

[Jessica2012]

If it is true that the Judge has said the verdict must be unanimous, to me that is an indication she won't allow an appeal if the Plaintiff loses. This case went through several re-filings before she accepted it for trial. After years of being accused on television and in social media, two respondents were dropped. The promise was made that there is new evidence. I can't find any new evidence against Adam which proves his liability.

I think she will issue her own direct verdict so that this case is over. We shall see. Tomorrow will be here soon enough.

I’m confused, MyBelle. How can there be a unanimous verdict? I thought the Plantiffs need 9 votes Guilty in order to win. (So there cannot be a hung jury either.)

:scale:

 

[Jessica2012]

BBM: IMO there are a lot of "may have's" in these posts from those who believe Rebecca committed suicide. The panties "may have" ________, the knife "may have" ________, the gloves "may have" ________, the rope "may have" ______, the painting of the door "may have" ________ , etc.

Just noticing.

True. There was not a video camera to record the order in which Rebecca did things and she did not leave a detailed note explaining how she did everything. Some things will never be known. What is known, is that DNA and fingerprints proved who was in the room; not the lack of DNA and fingerprints.

 

[justice be served]

IIRC, wasn’t one of the Zahaus and Bremner’s original complaints that the SDSO did not have a postmortem psychological assesement done?

Were they unable to find a doctor that would find the assement they wanted, or did they not think they could refute Dr. Alan Berman, who is probably the most educated person in the U.S. on suicide?

I’m glad you brought that up! Here is what a real and valid case investigation looks like by Dr. Alan Berman on Vince Foster. Now compare his investigation on Foster to Rebecca’s. Nothing is comparable to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/docs/fosterix.htm

So here is an extensive and in-depth study and conclusion of a suicide by Dr. Alan Berman. He interviewed many, many family, colleagues and broadly looked at his life in the many months leading up to his suicide finding.

Here is just an excerpt:

' The OIC interviewed Mr. Foster's wife, sisters, mother, children, and other relatives; numerous friends in Arkansas and Washington; many colleagues who worked closely with him at the Rose Law Firm or the White House; and various other persons with potentially important information. During this effort, the OIC gathered extensive evidence relating to Mr. Foster's state of mind and activities.

The OIC is grateful to the Foster family members – including Alice Mae Foster, Lisa Foster, Sharon Bowman, Sheila Anthony, Beryl Anthony, and the Foster children, among others – for cooperating with this and prior investigations under painful and difficult circumstances. Lisa Foster and Mr. Foster's mother, Alice Mae Foster, not only spoke with OIC investigators at some length, but also provided additional information and assistance at their homes in Arkansas.'

Dr. Alan Berman has no basis of finding suicide of Rebecca as his own standard of care was not met obviously IMO. Read everything that he did on the link in Vince Foster’s case and compare it to what he did with Rebecca’s case. He may be a top expert in suicide but in Rebecca’s case he fell down dramatically in his investigation and just took money to please the defense IMO.

 

[justice be served]

Could you please post a link that Paul Pfingst was retained by Jonah Shacknai? AFAIK, that has not been released. We just know Adam refused to talk to him.

Also, Dina’s Deposition makes it clear there wa no “jealousy or misplaced anger” towards Rebecca. Perhaps you meant that as an opinion, not a fact? TIA!

I'm glad you brought this up, too. Why do you suppose this little dangling participle is still unanswered after all this time? Former DA turns up at the crime scene and goes behind the crime tape. Why is he there, who hired him, who gave him the authority to become part of the what they thought to be at the time a crime scene? I guess that had to have been SDSO, right? Who else could have allowed him to be there. Which detective in the photo behind the crime scene tape was that? His name anyone? Find that and you'll start finding what is wrong with this investigation at the start and continuing until today. JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

I’m glad you brought that up! Here is what a real and valid case investigation looks like by Dr. Alan Berman on Vince Foster. Now compare his investigation on Foster to Rebecca’s. Nothing is comparable to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/docs/fosterix.htm

So here is an extensive and in-depth study and conclusion of a suicide by Dr. Alan Berman. He interviewed many, many family, colleagues and broadly looked at his life in the many months leading up to his suicide finding.

Here is just an excerpt:

' The OIC interviewed Mr. Foster's wife, sisters, mother, children, and other relatives; numerous friends in Arkansas and Washington; many colleagues who worked closely with him at the Rose Law Firm or the White House; and various other persons with potentially important information. During this effort, the OIC gathered extensive evidence relating to Mr. Foster's state of mind and activities.

The OIC is grateful to the Foster family members – including Alice Mae Foster, Lisa Foster, Sharon Bowman, Sheila Anthony, Beryl Anthony, and the Foster children, among others – for cooperating with this and prior investigations under painful and difficult circumstances. Lisa Foster and Mr. Foster's mother, Alice Mae Foster, not only spoke with OIC investigators at some length, but also provided additional information and assistance at their homes in Arkansas.'

Dr. Alan Berman has no basis of finding suicide of Rebecca as his own standard of care was not met obviously IMO. Read everything that he did on the link in Vince Foster’s case and compare it to what he did with Rebecca’s case. He may be a top expert in suicide but in Rebecca’s case he fell down dramatically in his investigation and just took money to please the defense IMO.

One problem that comes to mind immediately....Dr Bergman could not have interviewed the Zahaus with any expectancy of objectivity. They have both a financial and emotional stake in a verdict of murder.

I believe the family is also the source of the statement that RZ religious beliefs were so strong she would not commit suicide. But the testimony about her serial adultery indicates that the tenets of her faith...”Thiu Shalt Not Commit Adjltery” did not prohibit her from actions and behaviors that seem impulsive at best and destructive at worst.

 

[Jessica2012]

Do you have a link for that? I don't think you do.

Here is the information from the Court Minutes:

ROA 967

3. To Exclude Reference to Plaintiffs' Earlier Contentions in the Case - to grant in part and deny in part

4. To Exclude Reference to Decedent's Misdemeanor Shoplifting Plea - to deny

9:55 am The Court hears argument regarding plaintiff's motion in limine #3.

The Court confirms its tentative ruling on plaintiff's motion-in-limine #3

To Exclude Reference to Plaintiffs' Earlier Contentions in the Case - Granted in part as to complaints, and Denied in part as to theories.

IIRC, Judge Bacal ruled the Defense could use any theory or complaint filed since the beginning of the case in later minutes.

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm glad you brought this up, too. Why do you suppose this little dangling participle is still unanswered after all this time? Former DA turns up at the crime scene and goes behind the crime tape. Why is he there, who hired him, who gave him the authority to become part of the what they thought to be at the time a crime scene? I guess that had to have been SDSO, right? Who else could have allowed him to be there. Which detective in the photo behind the crime scene tape was that? His name anyone? Find that and you'll start finding what is wrong with this investigation at the start and continuing until today. JMO

If the plaintiffs had evidence of any wrongdoing, they would have used it. So they made the determination that there was nothing of value in speculating about this.

 

[Jessica2012]

I'm glad you brought this up, too. Why do you suppose this little dangling participle is still unanswered after all this time? Former DA turns up at the crime scene and goes behind the crime tape. Why is he there, who hired him, who gave him the authority to become part of the what they thought to be at the time a crime scene? I guess that had to have been SDSO, right? Who else could have allowed him to be there. Which detective in the photo behind the crime scene tape was that? His name anyone? Find that and you'll start finding what is wrong with this investigation at the start and continuing until today. JMO

If it were nefarious, I’m sure Greer would have used it in court, don’t you?

 

[justice be served]

According to the testimony:
Defense attorney David Elsberg asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide. “Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,” Berman answered. “It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame;....."

To form this opinion, Dr. Berman reviewed a range of documents including law enforcement reports, the Medical Examiner's reports, and depositions in this case. He never met Rebecca & his opinion is too limited in scope to make that generalization about Rebecca. His opinion is based on reports of people he has not personally inteviewed.

It is not a realistic way to assess and discuss someone's mental state. How can anyone give an in-depth character analysis on psychological or mental health grounds without knowing or examining the person at all?"

Thank you Minarone for this excellent analysis of the doctor. It gives even more weight to my report above.

 

[MyBelle]

I’m confused, MyBelle. How can there be a unanimous verdict? I thought the Plantiffs need 9 votes Guilty in order to win. (So there cannot be a hung jury either.)

:scale:

I thought someone posted that there can't be just nine votes for the Plaintiff to win. iow, it must be unanimous.

 

[justice be served]

If it were nefarious, I’m sure Greer would have used it in court, don’t you?

Mr. Greer, working pro bono, versus Adam's 9 attorneys with probably another 30 or more people working for them behind the scenes is no fair fight. Greer had to pick and choose his battles. Not to mention the fact that there is no unlimited pot of money in the Zahau side. They are funding it from public sentiment and zero dollars don't go very far for presenting witnesses.

Why do we have to keep pointing out how unfair this has been? Can't that fact at least be admitted to?